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Transgender People - The Basics (1 Viewer)

Jayrod

Footballguy
This issue is continuing to grow and move its way into every part of our society.  I am a very conservative religious individual, but I honestly want to understand where trans people come from.  I feel like I have no idea what is going on and can't even grasp the very basics of the issue.

To start I just have to ask some questions that may seem basic to some, but I do not know the actual answers.

  1. What does it mean for someone to "feel like" they are a specific gender?
  2. How do we define what constitutes someone being a different gender than their natural sex (if that's even the correct term)?
  3. Is it tied to sexual orientation? (I think I know this, but want to make sure)
  4. How much of it is emotional, psychological, physiological, etc.?
  5. Who decides what the answers to these questions are?
When dealing with the societal ramifications of transgender people, I think a full understanding of what we are even talking about is important.

I'll hang up and listen.

 
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This issue is continuing to grow and move its way into every part of our society.  I am a very conservative religious individual, but I honestly want to understand where trans people come from.  I feel like I have no idea what is going on and can't even grasp the very basics of the issue.

To start I just have to ask some questions that may seem basic to some, but I do not know the actual answers.

  1. What does it mean for someone to "feel like" they are a specific gender?
  2. How do we define what constitutes someone being a different gender than their natural sex (if that's even the correct term)?
  3. Is it tied to sexual orientation? (I think I know this, but want to make sure)
  4. How much of it is emotional, psychological, physiological, etc.?
  5. Who decides what the answers to these questions are?
When dealing with the societal ramifications of transgender people, I think a full understanding of what we are even talking about is important.

I'll hang up and listen.
So my niece was born a boy. An identical twin at that. From as early as they could express themselves she wanted to hang out with her older sister, play with dolls, paint her nails, play princess, etc. Her brother is such a typical boy: loves sports,  fighting, army stuff, etc. 

Then came the questions: why do I have a penis? I don't want it. Can I be Dorothy for Halloween? Will my penis go away? Mommy did you used to have a penis?

Then came the kids at school making fun of her for wanting to play with girls, doll, etc. She asked for a My Little Pony shirt when she was like 6 and then when we got it for her she cried and said she didn't want it anymore- she wanted Ironman stuff so the kids at school would be nice to her again. 

When she sees old pictures of herself, she asks did I have a penis then too? Does god sometime make mistakes with babies?

Then came depression and saying she wanted to die. Anyway she is in 2nd grade now, fully functions in society as a girl. Still is in therapy, has been to transgender camp and is getting better with her self esteem. 

There is zero doubt in my mind Kate is a girl and always was.

 
Also luckily she is horrible at sports and has no interest in them. She plays on the girls soccer team and if she touches thr ball once in a game it's a miracle.

 
So my niece was born a boy. An identical twin at that. From as early as they could express themselves she wanted to hang out with her older sister, play with dolls, paint her nails, play princess, etc. Her brother is such a typical boy: loves sports,  fighting, army stuff, etc. 

Then came the questions: why do I have a penis? I don't want it. Can I be Dorothy for Halloween? Will my penis go away? Mommy did you used to have a penis?

Then came the kids at school making fun of her for wanting to play with girls, doll, etc. She asked for a My Little Pony shirt when she was like 6 and then when we got it for her she cried and said she didn't want it anymore- she wanted Ironman stuff so the kids at school would be nice to her again. 

When she sees old pictures of herself, she asks did I have a penis then too? Does god sometime make mistakes with babies?

Then came depression and saying she wanted to die. Anyway she is in 2nd grade now, fully functions in society as a girl. Still is in therapy, has been to transgender camp and is getting better with her self esteem. 

There is zero doubt in my mind Kate is a girl and always was.
You are a great uncle. I’m sure your support and acceptance has helped her a great deal. 

 
The Football Freak said:
You are a great uncle. I’m sure your support and acceptance has helped her a great deal. 
Well thanks. It was easy so I don't know how much credit I deserve. Loved the kid when she was called Henry and not much really changed when she grew her hair longer, wore dresses and called herself Kate. The same person and personality the whole time. 

 
Ilov80s said:

So my niece was born a boy. An identical twin at that. From as early as they could express themselves she wanted to hang out with her older sister, play with dolls, paint her nails, play princess, etc. Her brother is such a typical boy: loves sports, fighting, army stuff, etc.

Then came the questions: why do I have a penis? I don't want it. Can I be Dorothy for Halloween? Will my penis go away? Mommy did you used to have a penis?

Then came the kids at school making fun of her for wanting to play with girls, doll, etc. She asked for a My Little Pony shirt when she was like 6 and then when we got it for her she cried and said she didn't want it anymore- she wanted Ironman stuff so the kids at school would be nice to her again.

When she sees old pictures of herself, she asks did I have a penis then too? Does god sometime make mistakes with babies?

Then came depression and saying she wanted to die. Anyway she is in 2nd grade now, fully functions in society as a girl. Still is in therapy, has been to transgender camp and is getting better with her self esteem.

There is zero doubt in my mind Kate is a girl and always was.
Wow. Is she on hormone therapy?

 
Most things aren't black or white.  We are finally coming to some acceptance that sex and gender are no exceptions.  There is gray area.  Sex is defined in terms of genetics and tends to be linked with the biological parts, but this has gray area as some are born rocking both sets of equipment.  Looking past the body parts to genetics, we associate males as having X and a Y chromosomes while the female is homogametic with XX chromosomes.  But again, there is gray area with this as some males are born with multiple X's and some females are born with Y's.  Some would like to view sexuality as more of a continuum of possibilities rather than an either-or designation.  Look to other species and things get even more convoluted.  

Gender, on the other hand, usually refers to one's self identification with a particular role in society...this can largely be shaped by culture and environment.  I think of it as more of a psychological characterization than a genetic one.

 
How do the other kids treat her? Does she go to the same school that she went to when she was a "boy"?
No she has changed schools a few times. Part of it was her parents moved to a different part of the city. They were in Catholic School and the school was not cool with it. So the teachers at another Catholic School said they were all inclusive, welcoming and loving of anyone that wanted to attend a school and learn about Jesus. Then the Priest that ran the parish found out she wanted to wear a girls uniform and be called Kate. A couple weeks before she was set to start school there, he invited the parents to a meeting and told them that if they loved their kids enough, their kids wouldn't be such sinners. 

So she is public school now and it's going well. Her brother switched schools with her. He was bummed about it but understood why.

 
Jayrod said:
This issue is continuing to grow and move its way into every part of our society.  I am a very conservative religious individual, but I honestly want to understand where trans people come from.  I feel like I have no idea what is going on and can't even grasp the very basics of the issue.

To start I just have to ask some questions that may seem basic to some, but I do not know the actual answers.

  1. What does it mean for someone to "feel like" they are a specific gender?
  2. How do we define what constitutes someone being a different gender than their natural sex (if that's even the correct term)?
  3. Is it tied to sexual orientation? (I think I know this, but want to make sure)
  4. How much of it is emotional, psychological, physiological, etc.?
  5. Who decides what the answers to these questions are?
When dealing with the societal ramifications of transgender people, I think a full understanding of what we are even talking about is important.

I'll hang up and listen.
You know everything you feel being a man. Now imagine the same exact thing, but when you were born, you had a ###### and boobs. 

HTH, YWIA. 

 
I wonder what biologically/psychologically causes this; for the mind to not be on the same page as the body.
Has the percentage of people that feel they should be the opposite gender always been the same throughout time? Or is there an external factor that increased the number/percentage of people whose wiring is flipped?

 
Sexual orientation has nothing to do with gender identity. It is a mental disorder since the brain is not lined up with their biology. Not sure how you connect them without transitioning, at least for those who want to. And for those who do, it seems to give them a sense of normalcy. I can't imagine growing up with that kind of confusion.

 
I think there are all kinds of things that a person can be randomly hit with in the genetic lottery and fetal development. Club feet, cleft palates, cowlicks, etc. (not to suggest that a trans condition is a genetic defect, just a condition that can be part of one's genetic makeup, but not necessarily inherited the same as eye color or hair color). I would think that past occurrence rates were massively underreported, and many of those affected had rather tough lives trying to conform in a binary society, or, hidden from it. So maybe now we're correcting the record and are better able to identify incidence of this development.
I can see how this, like homosexuality, was/is under reported. 
I don't think that calling it a defect is incorrect. It might not have a soft connotation some prefer. But essentially, these individuals are born misaligned one way or another; the surgery and drugs indicate as such.

 
Ilov80s said:
So my niece was born a boy. An identical twin at that. From as early as they could express themselves she wanted to hang out with her older sister, play with dolls, paint her nails, play princess, etc. Her brother is such a typical boy: loves sports,  fighting, army stuff, etc. 

Then came the questions: why do I have a penis? I don't want it. Can I be Dorothy for Halloween? Will my penis go away? Mommy did you used to have a penis?

Then came the kids at school making fun of her for wanting to play with girls, doll, etc. She asked for a My Little Pony shirt when she was like 6 and then when we got it for her she cried and said she didn't want it anymore- she wanted Ironman stuff so the kids at school would be nice to her again. 

When she sees old pictures of herself, she asks did I have a penis then too? Does god sometime make mistakes with babies?

Then came depression and saying she wanted to die. Anyway she is in 2nd grade now, fully functions in society as a girl. Still is in therapy, has been to transgender camp and is getting better with her self esteem. 

There is zero doubt in my mind Kate is a girl and always was.
I think this is one of the saddest things I have ever read..... and also one of the happiest. Saddest because of the My Little Pony story, reading that Kate suffers from depression and talks about wanting to die. Happiest because she now functions in society as a girl and has the opportunity to go to transgender camp and her self esteem is improving. 

After reading about your niece, how can anybody say transgender people are confused or doing it for attention or whatever other effed up bull#### comment they make.

Thanks for sharing her story. Kate is lucky to have you as an Uncle. 

 
Gender, on the other hand, usually refers to one's self identification with a particular role in society...this can largely be shaped by culture and environment.  I think of it as more of a psychological characterization than a genetic one.
Nope.  Unless you think all girls are nurses and housekeepers or something.  Gender identification is innate.

 
Nope.  Unless you think all girls are nurses and housekeepers or something.  Gender identification is innate.
No, I don't think that.  Nor did I intend to make sound devoid of biological factors, but there are non-biological/genetic factors that influence gender identity unlike sex designation which is purely a matter of biology.  Perhaps I should have said "includes" instead of "more of" in my statement.  The following is the definition of gender identity as described by the American Psychological Association's Dictionary of Psychology in 2015:  

Gender Identity: one’s selfidentification as male or female. Although the dominant approach in psychology for many years had been to regard gender identity as residing in individuals, the important influence of societal structures, cultural expectations, and personal interactions in its development is now recognized as well. Significant evidence now exists to support the conceptualization of gender identity as influenced by both environmental and biological factors.

 
Your sex is determined at conception
You'd think so, but it's not always that clear.  Your chromosomes are obviously set then, but there's more to gender.

There's this.

And this.  That last one is pretty technical.  What it comes down to is that hormones present in the womb determine physical changes that may result in a female appearance and orientation in a genetic male and vice versa.  

Try this article.

 
Your sex is determined at conception
I don't claim to fully understand gender identity. I'm thankful that the body I was born with matches the way I see myself (well, I would've preferred somethings to be a little larger, but we can't have it all).

I have no clue what it's like to be transgender and like I said, don't totally understand it, and in that situation, it makes sense to me to just listen to people when they tell you what gender they identify as. It doesn't impact me, and I don't understand the need for so many people to "tell people what gender they really are". However a transgender person got to this point seems like it must've come with great struggle that I'll never understand.

It's never wrong to help be part of a culture that might make it a little easier for people to be open and honest with you about who they are. Trying to make it harder for folks to do that just seems downright hateful and pointless. 

Let's just let folks be who they are, try to understand and empathize as best we can, and go pound a few Budweisers. Life's too short.

 
Gender, on the other hand, usually refers to one's self identification with a particular role in society...this can largely be shaped by culture and environment.  I think of it as more of a psychological characterization than a genetic one.
That's what I've been thinking but perhaps I'm wrong? If society didn't create these stereotypes, that a boy can't play with Barbie and my little pony, would that boy think he's a girl just for being interested in "feminine" things? 

Obviously if a genetic male doesn't feel like he should have a penis that's a different issue, but that's harder to comprehend imo.  

Also makes you wonder if certain historic figures were transgender. Was Joan of Arc really a boy in a girl's body? 

 
Also makes you wonder if certain historic figures were transgender. Was Joan of Arc really a boy in a girl's body? 
Is there a term for people that feel their body is the wrong gender but don't proceed with any changes? They just deal with the struggle internally. 

 
You'd think so, but it's not always that clear.  Your chromosomes are obviously set then, but there's more to gender.

There's this.

And this.  That last one is pretty technical.  What it comes down to is that hormones present in the womb determine physical changes that may result in a female appearance and orientation in a genetic male and vice versa.  

Try this article.
Yes I realize there are things outside the norm.  I believe we haven’t even begun to understand the factors that lead to many of these irregularities.  

 
Jayrod said:
This issue is continuing to grow and move its way into every part of our society.  I am a very conservative religious individual, but I honestly want to understand where trans people come from.  I feel like I have no idea what is going on and can't even grasp the very basics of the issue.

To start I just have to ask some questions that may seem basic to some, but I do not know the actual answers.

  1. What does it mean for someone to "feel like" they are a specific gender?
  2. How do we define what constitutes someone being a different gender than their natural sex (if that's even the correct term)?
  3. Is it tied to sexual orientation? (I think I know this, but want to make sure)
  4. How much of it is emotional, psychological, physiological, etc.?
  5. Who decides what the answers to these questions are?
When dealing with the societal ramifications of transgender people, I think a full understanding of what we are even talking about is important.

I'll hang up and listen.
I'm trying to give you the benefit of the doubt that your questions are sincere.  However, the first one seems a little disingenuous.  You don't understand what it means for someone to feel like a specific gender?  Do you not know what it is to feel like a man?  Do you have no concept of what it is about yourself that is manly?  There isn't a universal correct answer to these questions, but I would think most people could answer these questions for themselves.

 
I'm trying to give you the benefit of the doubt that your questions are sincere.  However, the first one seems a little disingenuous.  You don't understand what it means for someone to feel like a specific gender?  Do you not know what it is to feel like a man?  Do you have no concept of what it is about yourself that is manly?  There isn't a universal correct answer to these questions, but I would think most people could answer these questions for themselves.
I think the question is, how do you feel like a gender that you've never been?
Do you identify with their interests and lifestyle via personal observation? Or is it internal and biological?

 
Jayrod said:
This issue is continuing to grow and move its way into every part of our society.  I am a very conservative religious individual, but I honestly want to understand where trans people come from.  I feel like I have no idea what is going on and can't even grasp the very basics of the issue.

To start I just have to ask some questions that may seem basic to some, but I do not know the actual answers.

  1. What does it mean for someone to "feel like" they are a specific gender?
  2. How do we define what constitutes someone being a different gender than their natural sex (if that's even the correct term)?
  3. Is it tied to sexual orientation? (I think I know this, but want to make sure)
  4. How much of it is emotional, psychological, physiological, etc.?
  5. Who decides what the answers to these questions are?
When dealing with the societal ramifications of transgender people, I think a full understanding of what we are even talking about is important.

I'll hang up and listen.
What you've been told about "sex" and "gender" since you were in elementary school is at best an oversimplification, and at worst a series of very definite lies.  

I would imagine you've been told something to the effect of "If you are born with XX Chromosomes you are always female, and XY Chromosomes you are always male."  This is not true.  Scientifically, it is not true.

You were probably also told that if you're born with a vaglna, you're always a girl, and if you're born with a penis, you're always a boy.  This is also not true.  Scientifically, it is not true.

Biological sex characteristics exist on a spectrum.  It always has been that way, and it always will be that way.  It is literally impossible to define sex characteristics such that everyone with a set of characteristics "A" is a male and everyone with set "B" is a female based on biological markers with no confusion and no overlap.

 
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I think the question is, how do you feel like a gender that you've never been?
Do you identify with their interests and lifestyle via personal observation? Or is it internal and biological?
But there's the rub.  They have been.  You just didn't know it.

 
I should also mention that among the transgender community, it's considered incorrect to refer to people as "a transgender" or as "transgenders."  It's kind of like calling an Asian person an Oriental or referring to "the blacks."

 
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What you've been told about "sex" and "gender" since you were in elementary school is at best an oversimplification, and at worst a series of very definite lies.  

I would imagine you've been told something to the effect of "If you are born with XX Chromosomes you are always female, and XY Chromosomes you are always male."  This is not true.  Scientifically, it is not true.

You were probably also told that if you're born with a vaglna, you're always a girl, and if you're born with a penis, you're always a boy.  This is also not true.  Scientifically, it is not true.

Biological sex characteristics exist on a spectrum.  It always has been that way, and it always will be that way.  It is literally impossible to define sex characteristics such that everyone with a set of characteristics "A" is a male and everyone with set "B" is a female based on biological markers with no confusion and no overlap.
Continuing - now, once we get past the "biological sex" issue (which has now become problematic and difficult but not impossible because we can add "intersex" or "non-categorized sex characteristics" or whatever and no one cares because it's science) we get to the societal construct of binary gender.  Which is to say, where we say "We place you in box "A" and that means you are [some set of characteristics and intentions we expect from people of that gender.]"

Men don't play with dolls.  Women don't go hunting.  Men have to sign up for the draft.  Women need to have maternal instincts.  Men take shop.  Women take home ec.  Men love sports.  Women be shoppin'.  

Now, not only do you have to live in the place you are told you belong biologically (which may be fraught with peril) but you're expected to take on a set of secondary characteristics in connection with that place that society has given you.  Which, again, may just flat out be wrong.

 
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I'm trying to give you the benefit of the doubt that your questions are sincere.  However, the first one seems a little disingenuous.  You don't understand what it means for someone to feel like a specific gender?  Do you not know what it is to feel like a man?  Do you have no concept of what it is about yourself that is manly?  There isn't a universal correct answer to these questions, but I would think most people could answer these questions for themselves.
I honestly can't pinpoint anything specific that isn't related to physiological makeup or sexual desires (which I'm told is unrelated).

I'm not trying to be stubborn, I honestly don't understand the very foundational basis of what it means to "feel" like a different gender.

 
Ilov80s said:
So my niece was born a boy. An identical twin at that. From as early as they could express themselves she wanted to hang out with her older sister, play with dolls, paint her nails, play princess, etc. Her brother is such a typical boy: loves sports,  fighting, army stuff, etc. 

Then came the questions: why do I have a penis? I don't want it. Can I be Dorothy for Halloween? Will my penis go away? Mommy did you used to have a penis?

Then came the kids at school making fun of her for wanting to play with girls, doll, etc. She asked for a My Little Pony shirt when she was like 6 and then when we got it for her she cried and said she didn't want it anymore- she wanted Ironman stuff so the kids at school would be nice to her again. 

When she sees old pictures of herself, she asks did I have a penis then too? Does god sometime make mistakes with babies?

Then came depression and saying she wanted to die. Anyway she is in 2nd grade now, fully functions in society as a girl. Still is in therapy, has been to transgender camp and is getting better with her self esteem. 

There is zero doubt in my mind Kate is a girl and always was.
Thanks for sharing. It adds a very interesting perspective to the topic.

 
I honestly can't pinpoint anything specific that isn't related to physiological makeup or sexual desires (which I'm told is unrelated).

I'm not trying to be stubborn, I honestly don't understand the very foundational basis of what it means to "feel" like a different gender.
Let me try this.

If you woke up tomorrow and you'd been turned into a woman, same otherwise genetically but just female, do you believe you would feel the same that you do now?  Or do you believe you would still feel like "you" inside and as though you were in a body that was not your own?

 
Continuing - now, once we get past the "biological sex" issue (which has now become problematic and difficult but not impossible because we can add "intersex" or "non-categorized sex characteristics" or whatever and no one cares because it's science) we get to the societal construct of binary gender.  Which is to say, where we say "We place you in box "A" and that means you are [some set of characteristics and intentions we expect from people of that gender.]"

Men don't play with dolls.  Women don't go hunting.  Men have to sign up for the draft.  Women need to have maternal instincts.  Men take shop.  Women take home ec.  Men love sports.  Women be shoppin'.  

Now, not only do you have to live in the place you are told you belong biologically (which may be fraught with peril) but you're expected to take on a set of secondary characteristics in connection with that place that society has given you.  Which, again, may just flat out be wrong.
To clarify, are you saying that a Trans person (let me know the correct term and I'll edit the thread Title and stuff) feels like they should be doing societal things different than their biological sex would normally do?  Or are you saying they are physiologically different than their "assigned" biological gender?

 
In decades to come, we're going to figure out that all of us are on the autism spectrum, a hormonal spectrum, a polarity spectrum etc etc. The one we will be slowest to come around on will be the hormonal spectrum because advocates of queer rights needed and continue to need absolutism about the origin of sexual/gender identity in order to combat all the idiocy out there opposing the validity of their insides

 
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To clarify, are you saying that a Trans person (let me know the correct term and I'll edit the thread Title and stuff) feels like they should be doing societal things different than their biological sex would normally do?  Or are you saying they are physiologically different than their "assigned" biological gender?
Generally both, but I wouldn't presume to speak for everyone.  And yeah, I think transgender person or people is the way to go - the issue is that transgender is an adjective, not a noun. 

 
Let me try this.

If you woke up tomorrow and you'd been turned into a woman, same otherwise genetically but just female, do you believe you would feel the same that you do now?  Or do you believe you would still feel like "you" inside and as though you were in a body that was not your own?
I don't know that who I am is that connected to my body.  I am me inside and my body that I exist in is my own body.  If I have breasts and a ###### and were less muscular and smaller, I don't think I would be a different person.  Personality and likes/dislikes would remain,  the vast majority of which are not gender specific.  In fact, I think about the only truly gender specific thing about me is my sexual orientation which I understand is a separate issue.

 
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I don't know that who I am is that connected to my body.  I am me inside and my body that I exist in is my own body.  If I have breasts and a ###### and were less muscular and smaller, I don't think I would be a different person.  Personality and likes/dislikes would remain,  the vast majority of which are not gender specific.  In fact, I think about the only truly gender specific thing about me is my sexual orientation which I understand is a separate issue.
I think if you think a little deeper on it, you might change your mind.  If everyone on the street looked at you as a woman.  When you're being catcalled on the street.  When you're wearing women's clothes, or putting on makeup, or being admonished for not putting on makeup, or when your boss gets suggestive or your male friends start trying to get you drunk, or when you just look in the mirror and don't see you, it would probably be pretty jarring.

 
I'm not trying to be stubborn, I honestly don't understand the very foundational basis of what it means to "feel" like a different gender.
Part of the problem here is that you don't feel like a gender at all.  You just are that gender with no questions.  It's not ever something you have to think about.  But when the the outside just doens't match with what you know you are, it just feels wrong. 

 
I think if you think a little deeper on it, you might change your mind.  If everyone on the street looked at you as a woman.  When you're being catcalled on the street.  When you're wearing women's clothes, or putting on makeup, or being admonished for not putting on makeup, or when your boss gets suggestive or your male friends start trying to get you drunk, or when you just look in the mirror and don't see you, it would probably be pretty jarring.
I'm not sure this exercise is getting there.

I'm just really struggling with what would make me different other than who I want to have sex with (and the frequency with which I consider sex).

 
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I'm not sure this exercise is getting there.

I'm just really struggling what would make me different other than who I want to have sex with (and the frequency with which I consider sex).
That may be difficult to understand at first.  It may be easier to simply say "well, some people feel so strongly about it that they feel they have to change their bodies to fit and I don't - so at least I know there's something I don't know."  That can be a really strong starting point.

 

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