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Transgender People - The Basics (1 Viewer)

It’s possible.  The older I get the less I care.  

So what if any of this is a mental disorder? If it is, it’s a mental disorder no worse in and of itself than believing in rally caps for baseball games or that Satan is literally acting through people or that the keto diet is a healthy long term solution or marathon running is a good idea.   And I certainly agree with avoiding surgical solutions until adulthood, but that’s the case already.  People have to live in the real world as they really are.  The goal of parenting in my opinion is to get kids to adulthood with as many options as possible available to them. Depression, anxiety, and suicide remove a lot more options than wearing dresses and makeup. You play the hand you’re dealt. 
My daughter is a second year HS teacher n an affluent district.  In 2 years at the schools there has been one suicide, 3-4 attempted, she has had multiple cutters as students, kids that burn themselves with curling irons and pull their own hair out.  My daughter is 23 and believes it is caused from social media as these kids have no financial problems. Social meaning kids and their parents.

 
My daughter is a second year HS teacher n an affluent district.  In 2 years at the schools there has been one suicide, 3-4 attempted, she has had multiple cutters as students, kids that burn themselves with curling irons and pull their own hair out.  My daughter is 23 and believes it is caused from social media as these kids have no financial problems. Social meaning kids and their parents.
Out of curiosity, as a teacher in less affluent but likely geographically close school, how do you think it relates to the thread?

 
Out of curiosity, as a teacher in less affluent but likely geographically close school, how do you think it relates to the thread?
I was responding to Henry. All these issues are with all kids now.

The goal of parenting in my opinion is to get kids to adulthood with as many options as possible available to them. Depression, anxiety, and suicide remove a lot more options than wearing dresses and makeup. You play the hand you’re dealt. 

 
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Take it PMs boss, it's way off topic 
No. The longer he stays in college the better chance he'll interact with people unlike him. So it would be an advantage for him to stick around, as time in a university isn't all about learning stuff in books.

And as usual if you don't like the things I say, just report the post if you have a problem with it. I'm used to it by now.

 
I was responding to Henry. All these issues are with all kids now.

The goal of parenting in my opinion is to get kids to adulthood with as many options as possible available to them. Depression, anxiety, and suicide remove a lot more options than wearing dresses and makeup. You play the hand you’re dealt. 
I am not at all challenging you or anything. I know tone is tough when typed. I am just curious how you and your daughter were feeling on the issue. 

 
No. The longer he stays in college the better chance he'll interact with people unlike him. So it would be an advantage for him to stick around, as time in a university isn't all about learning stuff in books.

And as usual if you don't like the things I say, just report the post if you have a problem with it. I'm used to it by now.
It's off topic and I would appreciate it be left for somewhere else. 

Have we had an issue before where I would have ever reported you? I would be surprised. 

 
He wasn't even in a real college, he was going to some Creationist school that wasn't accredited. Don't get your hopes up.
 Ohh I thought he said he was going to Central Florida? That was a while ago the last time I was paying attention though. Thanks WB, I appreciate the update. I guess I'll leave the thread to the thread owner Ilove80s.

 
Makes a much better case for you then the first article, that actually was the opposite of your view, 

I'm not even going to try and pretend that I understand genetic science.  But......

I can understand from the article how a twin embryo could be formed. That is something that makes sense to to me. The other thing that makes sense could be the presence of different DNA that sits on the XX or XY chromosome. To me that would explain as the article pointed why there is a size difference in genatilla. Same as height or hair color. So I understand your's and other reluctance to say that there are only 2 genders. It would be like saying there are only to heights. Tall or Short. 

However even with this sliding scale you are scientifically XX female with ovaries or XY with testies. The sliding scale explains hormonal differences that can lead to feminine types of males [who may or may not be bi or homosexuals] or masculine women with facial hair/ [who may or may not turn into bi or homosexuals] 

I read this study as different shades of the same hair color. 

The problem arises in the rules society.  Does the strawberry blond use the Red headed or the blond bathroom. What if they were black haired bleached to blond? What does the poor bald headed guy to do? 

To me, most of our countries problems and division come down to "Political Correctness"  The biggest problem with it is right there in the first word. It's "Political" and so many people just don't see that. I remember being a young adult in the mid-80's when I first heard the term. "Being PC" Hell I was on board. I didn't want want hurt anyone or be mean. it seemed the polite thing to do. Not ######, mentally challenged. Not handicapped, handicapable.  Only after I matured and started to think as an individual  did I understand that being "PC" was a progressive trick to control the language. As a matter of fact as I right this,  I believe my pivot point on this was watching a George Carlin routine.  

It's all BS. Look at the American First thread. we are ripping each other apart over BS and whataboutism. I dove into it over gay marriage debate not that long ago. I dont care how people live the or protecting the sanctity of marriage. I don't think the government should even be in the marriage business. 

The war over language control is what's driving this hate. The left has been winning this war, but its led to Trump. The pendulum has swung back. The left is trying desperately to hold the ground its gained. The right is giving up their values and principles to push back. Why. Because it feels good. 

Sorry for going off track with the rant, I would have started a new thread. but i'm no Tim 
I think perhaps you and I looked at different charts in that article.  I’m not sure how you got a binary gender with feminine men and masculine women only from that chart. Look again at Ovitesticular and 46,XX testicular DSD.

 
 Ohh I thought he said he was going to Central Florida? That was a while ago the last time I was paying attention though. Thanks WB, I appreciate the update. I guess I'll leave the thread to the thread owner Ilove80s.
He has bad information. My college is accredited...

 
I think perhaps you and I looked at different charts in that article.  I’m not sure how you got a binary gender with feminine men and masculine women only from that chart. Look again at Ovitesticular and 46,XX testicular DSD.
I read the words, I didn't look at the pictures or charts.  Well actually I have seen pictures of Ovitesticular  I just consider the percentages to be so low that they are an anomaly and hardly worth the the ruckus that has been raised. But I will concede the fact that Ovitesticular  is real.

Will you concede that there is only three genders?

 
I read the words, I didn't look at the pictures or charts.  Well actually I have seen pictures of Ovitesticular  I just consider the percentages to be so low that they are an anomaly and hardly worth the the ruckus that has been raised. But I will concede the fact that Ovitesticular  is real.

Will you concede that there is only three genders?
I listed two there: ovotesticular and 46 XX testicular.  

And even that requires definitions including non-matching genitals and gonads.  

 
I listed two there: ovotesticular and 46 XX testicular.  

And even that requires definitions including non-matching genitals and gonads.  
So would you say 4 genders?   That's rhetorical no you wouldn't  Because the science is always changing and so is the political climate. they drive each other, I'm sorry but you cannot separate the two. The argument is as old as mankind.  [humanity]   

Did you read my thought on PC? We're chasing the wind and geopolitical fractions like Russia are taking advantage of it turning ourselves against each other over words. Word are wind and useless to chase after, 

I know it's hip and cool to say the US isn't all that, and there are better places to be. Especially in Trump's America.  But I like it here. and it's a pretty damn good place to live. 

I'm not trying to win this Transgender Argument. That's impossible. Just encouraging the argument/discussion is what's important. 

 
Then stop being what you hate. Stand for what you believe in.  Listen and then apply your principals. Be consistent or be a blow hard. 
Appreciate the advice. Everyday is a work in progress. I'm a little wiser and more respectful than I was 6 months ago, a year ago, etc.

My biggest shortcoming is handling my emotions. Like today, I can totally look back at my comments and see they are about 95% emotionally driven.

But hey, that's hindsight for you.

 
So would you say 4 genders?   That's rhetorical no you wouldn't  Because the science is always changing and so is the political climate. they drive each other, I'm sorry but you cannot separate the two. The argument is as old as mankind.  [humanity]   

Did you read my thought on PC? We're chasing the wind and geopolitical fractions like Russia are taking advantage of it turning ourselves against each other over words. Word are wind and useless to chase after, 

I know it's hip and cool to say the US isn't all that, and there are better places to be. Especially in Trump's America.  But I like it here. and it's a pretty damn good place to live. 

I'm not trying to win this Transgender Argument. That's impossible. Just encouraging the argument/discussion is what's important. 
I’m fine with saying there are two or three or four or a hundred genders.  I don’t really care. Because in order to set a number you have to tell me the context.  Like you did.  “Well, if we set gender as combination of chromosomes and gonads, there are four.”

Okay, but that’s essentially useless to me.  When am I going to need to define it that way?

In the US, in my generation, we have two.  In social situations I will ever be in, we have two, three if we include “gender fluid.” And the only reliable or consistent way to group people into those two or three is by what they decide they are.  Which is the only point I have in all of this.  Any more than three? Is socially useless and an attempt to create some kind of all-situations definition that just isn’t necessary almost ever in my life.

So yes, I’m fine with three.  And no, you’re not right about what I’d agree to.  If you’ll just agree it’s all situational definitions, then we can all agree that people get to define their own situations. N’est pas?

 
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I guess what I’m saying is that the problem with what you’re calling PC is a sort of Cartesian/Kantian attempt to create universal dichomoty categories that don’t really exist and none of us need.  It’s not a “left” thing, it’s an “American” thing that the “right” does, too, and they’re both winning on different fronts.  And it’s stupid and counterproductive and it leads to division and bigotry. By everybody. 

 
No. People will still have genitals. It will still be illegal to circumcise a ########, regardless of its owner’s gender. It will still be legal to circumcise a penis for the same reasons. 

Happy to help 

 
Though apparently it won’t be possible to post the names of some body parts here, based on logic that I must admit escapes me

 
So if there aren't binary genders then some laws will be coming off the books?

Such as currently it is illegal to circumsize a female but not a male.

Sounds like cosmetically altering a babies genitals should either be allowed for everybody or nobody, especially if we can't define gender at birth and want to treat everyone equally.
Or we could accept that while we set societal category rules and norms, as people grow up and get agency they may want to be recategorized since the categories are in some ways arbitrary.  And just let them do that. 

 
By saying sex or gender is arbitrary are you arguing that wether you are a male or female is based on personal choice and not any reason or system? And if not true for infants at what age do we stop using genital type to determine gender?
You’re going to have to decide whether we’re talking about sex or gender. Sex, biologically speaking, is a sliding scale without a true binary and gender is a social construct.  

There are always cases that could go either way based on any of the accepted characteristics.  Chromosomes, genitals, hormones, whatever. If that’s the case, why would we accept some stranger’s decision at birth more than someone’s decision for him or herself after learning who he or she is?

 
You're going to have to decide wether we are talking about sex or gender as your article said binary sex is a fallacy and you changed it to say binary gender is a fallacy. If they are 2 different things then why are you changing the title of the article?

Because the stranger is a licensed medical professional making their desicion on physical evidence. "Who I am" is not determined by gender as no matter what type of clothes I wear or how I act I will still always be me.
No, binary sex is definitely a fallacy which is why I said “sliding scale without a true binary”.

But because people erroneously believe gender to be based solely on sex, they both are. 

I didn’t just change a word in the title, I gave a description of part of the article which isn’t the same as the title.  In fact it heavily discusses both, you may have noticed in reading it. 

 
Perhaps you mistakenly used an article talking about sex to support an argument about gender. I don't see how it is relevant if we are to differentiate between the two.
Then I would submit that you didn’t read the article closely enough. 

 
A time to be born, a time to die
A time to plant, a time to reap
A time to kill, a time to heal
A time to laugh, a time to weep

To everything 
There is a season 
And a time to every purpose, under heaven

 
I keep reading the article I don't see anywhere how archaeology applies to a gender fallacy- only has to do with physical charasterics and how that relates to sex. 

You titled it archaeology and the fallacy of non binary gender. Still not seeing the connection. 

I think what I'm missing here is what does sex have anything to do with gender if they are 2 different things?
Why worry about it? Who cares?

 
I’m on vacation with my family- including my wonderful niece. We had brunch, went swimming and I’m so happy that she’s totally confident and comfortable with herself. I hope we all get lots of time to spend with those we love in 2019z 

 
I will- right now I was wanting to learn how archaelogy relates to the fallacy of non binary gender. Can you summarize for me? 

Do you think laws banning female genital mutilation discriminate against any sex or genders?
No clue 

 
I keep reading the article I don't see anywhere how archaeology applies to a gender fallacy- only has to do with physical charasterics and how that relates to sex. 

You titled it archaeology and the fallacy of non binary gender. Still not seeing the connection. 

I think what I'm missing here is what does sex have anything to do with gender if they are 2 different things?

An increasing recognition of this complexity by researchers and the public has affirmed that gender sits on a spectrum: People are more and more willing to acknowledge the reality of non-binary and transgender identities, and to support those who courageously fight for their rights in everything from all-gender bathrooms to anti-gender-discrimination laws. But underlying all of this is the perception that no matter the gender a person identifies as, they have an underlying sex they were born with. This represents a fundamental misunderstanding about the nature of biological sex. Science keeps showing us that sex also doesn't fit in a binary, whether it be determined by genitals, chromosomes, hormones, or bones (which are the subject of my research).
 
I treat people with respect regardless what they think their gender is. I can also understand why we don't want a boy who feels like a girl to join the girls swim team and shower with them. "Acceptance" works both ways. Who do we make uncomfortable in this situation?
If you’re referring to someone as “a boy who feels like a girl” there’s a fairly reasonable argument that you aren’t treating that person with respect. 

 
I have no problems with anyone, be gay, be transgender, couldn't care less about race.  I'm only concerned with be cool, be nice.

BUT......

If a person is gay, transgender,  whatever  don't beat it to death.  Nobody wants to hear about it constantly, don't make it todays topic every day.  We all get it, we see it, so move on. Don't bother everyone with ....you.

Same with religion, believe whatever ya want, cool.  Just don't beat the hell out of it and bug everyone over your beliefs.

 
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I need to focus on other things right now. I'd appreciate your views on all I have asked and will be back when I can to discuss and learn more. I am also interested in what science can teach us about how enviroment and consciousness can affect genetic expression...as this has not been brought up yet at all...it is very interesting to me...
I’m glad it’s interesting to you.  There’s lots of research on all of these topics out there for you to find.  We can always chat when you get back.  Good luck.   

 
One thing that drives me nuts is when a person feigns open-mindedness.  It tends to start with them stating that they just want to have a rational discussion of facts, and their viewpoint is (in their mind) reasonable and well formed.  Usually this is accompanied by a few pointed questions designed at what they think is a soft underbelly of an argument counter to their current viewpoint.  Then it tends to be shown that they haven't really tried to research the "other side."  When resources are given to them to do that research, they tend to ignore those sources and repeat their questions (sometimes emotional arguments).  If they are pressed on if they've explored the recently presented info, they'll often say that they have other "more important" things to do and will "get to that later."  They rarely do.

 
As a side note and question:

I recently learned that my niece has been displaying for a while behaviors and desires that she may, in fact, feel that "she" is a boy.  When I first heard this (from my SIL, the mother) I was worried about what was going to follow - my brother has often been a "tough guy" in life.  To my great surprise I learned that they - as parents - decided that they are going to let the child behave as she pleases (with regard to gender) and focus on raising that child to be a good human.  They know they don't have all the answers and get posed with new challenges with it regularly (literally this occurred during the same visit where I learned of all of this).  But they are caring for their child in a loving way - knowing they'll make mistakes - but trying to work with everyone (school, friends, family) to make the best choices they can.  I was shocked by and proud of my brother that day.

For the question - very early on in this thread (page 1) someone said that trans people suffer from a "mental disorder" and the logic was something along the lines of their mind isn't in line with their biology.  I've heard similar arguments from different people over time.  Something occurred to me as I read it - and forgive me if this was posted between pages 2-4, which I skipped).  Why in this instance are we granting primacy to the biological form and not the mental?  As humans we often say "I am not my body - I am my thoughts, emotions, actions."  Yet when we seek to define some of these issues some folks cast that aside.  When Stephen Hawking was in a chair due to a debilitating disease, his mind - fully functioning - was not in line with what his biology could do.  Was it a mental disorder he suffered from or a physical one?  I recognize that is a crude analogy, but I hope the point is coming through.  If we believe our essence, our personalities, or for the religious folks our soul, is not defined by our physical form, why are we so hellbent on gender being so defined?

 

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