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Transgender People - The Basics

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3 hours ago, dotman said:

I treat people with respect regardless what they think their gender is. I can also understand why we don't want a boy who feels like a girl to join the girls swim team and shower with them. "Acceptance" works both ways. Who do we make uncomfortable in this situation?

If you’re referring to someone as “a boy who feels like a girl” there’s a fairly reasonable argument that you aren’t treating that person with respect. 

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I have no problems with anyone, be gay, be transgender, couldn't care less about race.  I'm only concerned with be cool, be nice.

BUT......

If a person is gay, transgender,  whatever  don't beat it to death.  Nobody wants to hear about it constantly, don't make it todays topic every day.  We all get it, we see it, so move on. Don't bother everyone with ....you.

Same with religion, believe whatever ya want, cool.  Just don't beat the hell out of it and bug everyone over your beliefs.

Edited by ZenoRazon
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1 hour ago, dotman said:

I need to focus on other things right now. I'd appreciate your views on all I have asked and will be back when I can to discuss and learn more. I am also interested in what science can teach us about how enviroment and consciousness can affect genetic expression...as this has not been brought up yet at all...it is very interesting to me...

I’m glad it’s interesting to you.  There’s lots of research on all of these topics out there for you to find.  We can always chat when you get back.  Good luck.   

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One thing that drives me nuts is when a person feigns open-mindedness.  It tends to start with them stating that they just want to have a rational discussion of facts, and their viewpoint is (in their mind) reasonable and well formed.  Usually this is accompanied by a few pointed questions designed at what they think is a soft underbelly of an argument counter to their current viewpoint.  Then it tends to be shown that they haven't really tried to research the "other side."  When resources are given to them to do that research, they tend to ignore those sources and repeat their questions (sometimes emotional arguments).  If they are pressed on if they've explored the recently presented info, they'll often say that they have other "more important" things to do and will "get to that later."  They rarely do.

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As a side note and question:

I recently learned that my niece has been displaying for a while behaviors and desires that she may, in fact, feel that "she" is a boy.  When I first heard this (from my SIL, the mother) I was worried about what was going to follow - my brother has often been a "tough guy" in life.  To my great surprise I learned that they - as parents - decided that they are going to let the child behave as she pleases (with regard to gender) and focus on raising that child to be a good human.  They know they don't have all the answers and get posed with new challenges with it regularly (literally this occurred during the same visit where I learned of all of this).  But they are caring for their child in a loving way - knowing they'll make mistakes - but trying to work with everyone (school, friends, family) to make the best choices they can.  I was shocked by and proud of my brother that day.

For the question - very early on in this thread (page 1) someone said that trans people suffer from a "mental disorder" and the logic was something along the lines of their mind isn't in line with their biology.  I've heard similar arguments from different people over time.  Something occurred to me as I read it - and forgive me if this was posted between pages 2-4, which I skipped).  Why in this instance are we granting primacy to the biological form and not the mental?  As humans we often say "I am not my body - I am my thoughts, emotions, actions."  Yet when we seek to define some of these issues some folks cast that aside.  When Stephen Hawking was in a chair due to a debilitating disease, his mind - fully functioning - was not in line with what his biology could do.  Was it a mental disorder he suffered from or a physical one?  I recognize that is a crude analogy, but I hope the point is coming through.  If we believe our essence, our personalities, or for the religious folks our soul, is not defined by our physical form, why are we so hellbent on gender being so defined?

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44 minutes ago, Polish Hammer said:

One thing that drives me nuts is when a person feigns open-mindedness.  It tends to start with them stating that they just want to have a rational discussion of facts, and their viewpoint is (in their mind) reasonable and well formed.  Usually this is accompanied by a few pointed questions designed at what they think is a soft underbelly of an argument counter to their current viewpoint.  Then it tends to be shown that they haven't really tried to research the "other side."  When resources are given to them to do that research, they tend to ignore those sources and repeat their questions (sometimes emotional arguments).  If they are pressed on if they've explored the recently presented info, they'll often say that they have other "more important" things to do and will "get to that later."  They rarely do.

My favorite is definitely "hey, would you do all the work to educate me on this, answer every question I have, and if I feel like it I may come back and read your answers some day but I have better things to do."

 

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35 minutes ago, Polish Hammer said:

As a side note and question:

I recently learned that my niece has been displaying for a while behaviors and desires that she may, in fact, feel that "she" is a boy.  When I first heard this (from my SIL, the mother) I was worried about what was going to follow - my brother has often been a "tough guy" in life.  To my great surprise I learned that they - as parents - decided that they are going to let the child behave as she pleases (with regard to gender) and focus on raising that child to be a good human.  They know they don't have all the answers and get posed with new challenges with it regularly (literally this occurred during the same visit where I learned of all of this).  But they are caring for their child in a loving way - knowing they'll make mistakes - but trying to work with everyone (school, friends, family) to make the best choices they can.  I was shocked by and proud of my brother that day.

For the question - very early on in this thread (page 1) someone said that trans people suffer from a "mental disorder" and the logic was something along the lines of their mind isn't in line with their biology.  I've heard similar arguments from different people over time.  Something occurred to me as I read it - and forgive me if this was posted between pages 2-4, which I skipped).  Why in this instance are we granting primacy to the biological form and not the mental?  As humans we often say "I am not my body - I am my thoughts, emotions, actions."  Yet when we seek to define some of these issues some folks cast that aside.  When Stephen Hawking was in a chair due to a debilitating disease, his mind - fully functioning - was not in line with what his biology could do.  Was it a mental disorder he suffered from or a physical one?  I recognize that is a crude analogy, but I hope the point is coming through.  If we believe our essence, our personalities, or for the religious folks our soul, is not defined by our physical form, why are we so hellbent on gender being so defined?

There are a number of reasons.  One is even pro-trans, and while it is extremely important for the trans community from a practical standpoint, it's also extremely damaging from a social standpoint.  It is this:

Insurance won't pay for gender reassignment surgery unless there's a diagnosed disorder associated with it.  There is no physical pathology to be treated, so there has to be a psychological pathology or it will never happen for people.  So "Gender Dysphoria" was born.

It's kind of a messed up system when people have to get diagnosed with a mental disorder in order to move forward with their lives, but it's the grand bargain we've come up with so far.

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1 minute ago, Henry Ford said:

There are a number of reasons.  One is even pro-trans, and while it is extremely important for the trans community from a practical standpoint, it's also extremely damaging from a social standpoint.  It is this:

Insurance won't pay for gender reassignment surgery unless there's a diagnosed disorder associated with it.  There is no physical pathology to be treated, so there has to be a psychological pathology or it will never happen for people.  So "Gender Dysphoria" was born.

It's kind of a messed up system when people have to get diagnosed with a mental disorder in order to move forward with their lives, but it's the grand bargain we've come up with so far.

That makes sense, thanks for clearing that up.  I guess that ends up frustrating me because then you'll have some people say, "it's just something wrong with their mind - they need to get their head straight."  They want to reduce the issue to such simple terms and I don't think it is that at all.  

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1 minute ago, Polish Hammer said:

That makes sense, thanks for clearing that up.  I guess that ends up frustrating me because then you'll have some people say, "it's just something wrong with their mind - they need to get their head straight."  They want to reduce the issue to such simple terms and I don't think it is that at all.  

Sure.  And trans people have to actually make the argument to their insurance company that they have a mental disorder.  I think it's really damaging, but it's a practical issue that makes a huge difference in whether or not they can get physical treatment.

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31 minutes ago, dotman said:

Nice strawman...I throughly read on of your sources and as I said just because biologically sex may be not binary it does not prove that there are not male and female sexes...you are the one who ignores questions and continues to attack me...

That's what Henry Ford does. Read the thread, he posts articles every few months then eviscerates those who don't blindly accept instead of having honest discussion. Then, his friends will all pile on top of you and somehow you'll end up the bad guy.

That's what you have to watch with intellectuals. They can very effectively be intellectually dishonest.

 

I don't think his heart is in the wrong place. From my understanding, he is a lawyer for these kind of people and is a member of the LGBT community himself so you will never "sway" his opinion.

Edited by The Fearless

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1 hour ago, Polish Hammer said:

Why in this instance are we granting primacy to the biological form and not the mental?  As humans we often say "I am not my body - I am my thoughts, emotions, actions."  Yet when we seek to define some of these issues some folks cast that aside.  When Stephen Hawking was in a chair due to a debilitating disease, his mind - fully functioning - was not in line with what his biology could do.  Was it a mental disorder he suffered from or a physical one?  I recognize that is a crude analogy, but I hope the point is coming through.  If we believe our essence, our personalities, or for the religious folks our soul, is not defined by our physical form, why are we so hellbent on gender being so defined?

Well, clearly Hawking was physically disabled.  His body did not work like a regular healthy person's.  

In the case of a trans person, their physical body is fine and works like normal.  Then what's off?

If our society wasn't so strictly conforming about what young boys and girls should do/dress/say I wonder if people would ever even end up despising their genitals so much.  Gender dysmorphia is definitely not a decision, but maybe it's a subconscious coping method developed at a very young age for a child trying to assimilate what they're told about the world (only girls like dolls and pink). 

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36 minutes ago, dotman said:

Nice strawman...I throughly read on of your sources and as I said just because biologically sex may be not binary it does not prove that there are not male and female sexes...you are the one who ignores questions and continues to attack me...

 

Besides...I have always felt inside I was an adonic demi-god and I would like the government funds to build my travelling bathroom where Lindsay Lohan and Britney Spears whisper into my ears as I relieve myself...as I get criminally depressed sharing a bathroom with mere mortals who can't even get all their stuff in the toilet...and I expect the same tolerances and acceptance of my true gender...and I am very grateful you have laid the framework for me to express my true self without ridicule...Thank You and Happy New Year!

Cool, have fun.  Good luck learning what a strawman is.

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8 minutes ago, The Fearless said:

That's what Henry Ford does. Read the thread, he posts articles every few months then eviscerates those who don't blindly accept instead of having honest discussion. Then, his friends will all pile on top of you and somehow you'll end up the bad guy.

That's what you have to watch with intellectuals. They can very effectively be intellectually dishonest.

 

I don't think his heart is in the wrong place. From my understanding, he is a lawyer for these kind of people and is a member of the LGBT community himself so you will never "sway" his opinion.

Hey, cool.  Welcome back, Em.

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10 minutes ago, dotman said:

Don't forget- he ALWAYS gets the last word...all is well...a clear mind will see the misdirection, deflection, personal attacks and emotional anecdotes presented when people are desperate to prove an idea rather than just discuss it openly. 

Really pains them to discuss how genital mutilation laws discriminate based on sex...(and also make no sense if it is a fundamental misunderstanding that people are born without an underlying sex)

Pains whom?  It doesn't pain me to discuss genital mutilation laws.

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So to discuss genital mutilation laws, we'll need to break it down:

Female genital mutilation primarily consists of four types:

Quote

 

Type 1: Often referred to as clitoridectomy, this is the partial or total removal of the ######## (a small, sensitive and erectile part of the female genitals), and in very rare cases, only the prepuce (the fold of skin surrounding the ########).

Type 2: Often referred to as excision, this is the partial or total removal of the ######## and the labia minora (the inner folds of the vulva), with or without excision of the labia majora (the outer folds of skin of the vulva ).

Type 3: Often referred to as infibulation, this is the narrowing of the vaginal opening through the creation of a covering seal. The seal is formed by cutting and repositioning the labia minora, or labia majora, sometimes through stitching, with or without removal of the ######## (clitoridectomy).

Type 4: This includes all other harmful procedures to the female genitalia for non-medical purposes, e.g. pricking, piercing, incising, scraping and cauterizing the genital area.


 

I think generally we can analogize these to the following:

1. Penis removal surgery in an infant or young boy, or otherwise without request/consent;

2. Penis and foreskin, perhaps also scrotal removal in an infant or young boy, or otherwise without request/consent;

3. Sealing of the foreskin over the genitals in an infant or young boy, or otherwise without request/consent;

4. Everything else, potentially including circumcision (which it sounds like is probably what we're discussing.)

Does that sound fair?  Because 1-3 are still illegal everywhere just like female genital mutilation is, and I would imagine what you're wanting to discuss is circumcision.

 

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2 minutes ago, dotman said:

You don't need to post all that...the question was if they discriminate based on sex...simple...

Well... right.  But that's an open question, isn't it?

Because discrimination gets very difficult to nail down when we're discussing unlike situations.

For instance - many people talk about the "gender pay gap" in two different ways. 

1. Two people doing the same job should get paid the same; or

2. Two people with differing amounts of relevant experience likely should be paid differently.

So when we see women making $0.82 on the dollar when compared to their male counterparts, it looks like discrimination.

Then some people argue "well, of course, because we also have to take into account the number of women who have left the workforce to have children/raise families, and then came back - they're missing potentially years of relevant experience."

That's a long and involved conversation itself, but it's a conversation that isn't rooted in insanity or anything, and adjusting just for the issue seems like it might be a relevant part of the discussion.

Same here - if we accept that the two procedures are identical in all relevant ways, yes - genital mutilation laws discriminate (in many people's eyes unreasonably so) based on type of genitals (whether they also discriminate based on sex or gender depends on country and legal system, really, and how the law is written.)

But if there's a relevant difference, then it isn't discrimination at all, it's potentially just applying the same standards to two different things.

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Just now, dotman said:

It really appears you struggle to stay on topic and not resort to personal barbs...if you have explored my point of view (which I understand you may not be capable) as demi-god then you would know my superior intellect may not yet be understood by a person such as yourself and to even question me is mis-gendering me and intolerant. It's nothing to me but I appreciate the fervor of which you argue your opinions and would like to continue to show mercy and favor towards you- if you will just accept my gender and move on it would please me greatly- direct your energies my will- and I will stand for respect of all people as I utterly despise bullying I vow to put an end to hate speech and bring suffering to bullies- you are cared for and appreciated by your God My Father- accept his gender and move on carrying out my will...

Assuming you're willing to accept that religion and the concept of a God are both social constructs rooted solely in a public consciousness and not in some kind of objective reality, I would certainly be willing to entertain the concept.  Of course, that would involve a redefinition (like, as we've been discussing, redefinition of gender and sex beyond the third grade understanding we've had jammed at us for a long time.)  

As it stands, you appear to be trying to both subjectively define your status vis-a-vis "Godness" and "non-Godness" in terms of a constructed narrative for society and redefine yourself using it as a method of determining a series of objectively measurable qualities (superior intellect, etc.)  That's not a logically (or socially) consistent position, and that makes it difficult to go along with.  As I said, though, if you can resolve what appear to be inherent difficulties, I'd be willing to discuss whether there are relevant differences between that position and one of gender definition.

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Let me give you an example:

Suppose someone you've always known as a young woman came to you and said "I wanted you to know I identify as a man, because gender is simply a social construct without true objective standards."

Okay, on board, right?

Then your friend says "And as a man, I'm stronger than your wife is.  Because men are stronger than women, so you need to just accept that."

"Whoah" right? 

"Hold up.  You just told me you can say you're a man because it's just a social construct.  But now you're saying that it's defined by objective standards.  Well, that doesn't make any sense at all."

That's why your demi-God example isn't working.

Edited by Henry Ford
gender pronoun wonkiness based on the example

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40 minutes ago, dotman said:

This issue hits close to home for Ilov80's- let's not attack him passive aggressively like this.

This deflection isn't funny, necessary, or helpful.

1 hour ago, cockroach said:

Well, clearly Hawking was physically disabled.  His body did not work like a regular healthy person's.  

In the case of a trans person, their physical body is fine and works like normal.  Then what's off?

If our society wasn't so strictly conforming about what young boys and girls should do/dress/say I wonder if people would ever even end up despising their genitals so much.  Gender dysmorphia is definitely not a decision, but maybe it's a subconscious coping method developed at a very young age for a child trying to assimilate what they're told about the world (only girls like dolls and pink). 

I admitted in my post that it was a bit of a hamfisted analogy.  While a trans person may have a healthy and functioning physical body, if it doesn't "match" what their internal drives/desires are hard-coded to be, that could end up causing trauma over time.  Not necessarily physical trauma, but something else.  I'll make another (possibly poor) attempt at an analogy.  Let's say I was a lawyer because that was what I was always expected to be, from my youth on up.  I could be a lawyer for decades, function fine as one, and show no outward signs of any issues.  But if internally I wanted to be a mime - to be silent, to act, to entertain - and instead I was always talking, interrogating, litigating, then that could end up making a person amazingly dissatisfied with their life.  And yes, you could find another job, you don't always have to be a lawyer, that's a limited number of hours per week.  I get that.  Now imagine it isn't something that is part-time, like a job.  Imagine if that frustration is binded to the body you inhabit, and lots of society want to prevent you from ever feeling right.  That could be crushing.  (Again, if this one doesn't work, sorry.)

As far as your thoughts about conforming young boys/girls to certain sets of behaviors and cultural norms, I get it to a point.  I can't say one way or another if trans people "despise their genitals."  Could it be a coping method?  I don't know, I'm not that educated on the subject.  One thing I try to be careful about is not to take my untested suppositions and then transform them into assumed fact/reality when learning about something.  I would guess that if you really were interested in your hypothesis, there might be data out there related to the idea you pose.

5 minutes ago, dotman said:

It really appears you struggle to stay on topic and not resort to personal barbs...if you have explored my point of view (which I understand you may not be capable) as demi-god then you would know my superior intellect may not yet be understood by a person such as yourself and to even question me is mis-gendering me and intolerant. It's nothing to me but I appreciate the fervor of which you argue your opinions and would like to continue to show mercy and favor towards you- if you will just accept my gender and move on it would please me greatly- direct your energies my will- and I will stand for respect of all people as I utterly despise bullying I vow to put an end to hate speech and bring suffering to bullies- you are cared for and appreciated by your God My Father- accept his gender and move on carrying out my will...

Posting  things like this really don't help make the case that you're trying to be reasonable.  I hope the New Year finds you in a better frame of mind.

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Just now, dotman said:

It's arbitrary...there may be similarities to how others define and view objective measurable of their limited perceptions of demi-god status...however it is entirely up to me as such as I know inside you are not to question me and you struggle to fully grasp who I am because you do not accept it. You were asked to accept and if have not and that is why you do not fully understand...

dotman, who hurt you so bad?

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Just now, dotman said:

It's arbitrary...there may be similarities to how others define and view objective measurable of their limited perceptions of demi-god status...however it is entirely up to me as such as I know inside you are not to question me and you struggle to fully grasp who I am because you do not accept it. You were asked to accept and if have not and that is why you do not fully understand...

At the risk of a smiting, it doesn't seem that's the case.  You've clearly stated that one of the defining characteristics is a superior intellect (presumably superior to everyone on earth.)  That's a definitional, objectively measurable characteristic.

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3 minutes ago, dotman said:

Are you implying because I have an uncommon gender that it must be because someone hurt me? 

 

The first wound was the removal of my foreskin....of course....was not my father's will....but they drugged my mother and made it seem normal you see...as she was mortal and weak...

Ah, there we are.  Back to the subject.

Now.  How did they make your mother believe it was normal?  What was the tactic used?  Because just from experience, it seems unlikely the discussion was "you want him to be normal, don't you?"

Instead, it was probably some combination of the following, among other topics:

1. Reduces the likelihood of infections of the genitals;

2. Reduces likelihood of penile cancer and reproductive cancers in his future partners; and

3. Reduces likelihood of sexually transmitted infections.

Does that sound vaguely like what was said?

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1 minute ago, dotman said:

A combination of all...lies...hypocrisy...as I'm sure you're aware the first rule for Doctors is do no harm...and children have died from circumcision...and also powerful sedatives rendered her decision making useless...as this has been established in court...

 

And we can reduce your likelihood of brain cancer by removing your brain of course....it's science

Ah, well.  It was interesting to consider the possibility of a reasonable discussion.  Thanks, have a good one.

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On ‎2‎/‎28‎/‎2018 at 1:58 PM, Bull Dozier said:

I'm trying to give you the benefit of the doubt that your questions are sincere.  However, the first one seems a little disingenuous.  You don't understand what it means for someone to feel like a specific gender?  Do you not know what it is to feel like a man?  Do you have no concept of what it is about yourself that is manly?  There isn't a universal correct answer to these questions, but I would think most people could answer these questions for themselves.

I disagree with this.  I have no sense of "gender" whatsoever, and I don't think that is uncommon.  It's all a little too metaphysical for me.

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1 hour ago, Soonerman said:

I disagree with this.  I have no sense of "gender" whatsoever, and I don't think that is uncommon.  It's all a little too metaphysical for me.

 

I doubt this is true. What is probably true is that your "sense of gender" is so deeply, naturally tied into your self-identity that it isn't even a separate concept that you'd consider, being in the "correct" body and all. 

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20 minutes ago, ConnSKINS26 said:

 

I doubt this is true. What is probably true is that your "sense of gender" is so deeply, naturally tied into your self-identity that it isn't even a separate concept that you'd consider, being in the "correct" body and all. 

So we're not allowed to disbelieve people where their gender feelings don't match their biological sex, but if I say I don't have a sense of gender, I'm not telling the truth?

Seems kind of inconsistent.

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32 minutes ago, Soonerman said:

So we're not allowed to disbelieve people where their gender feelings don't match their biological sex, but if I say I don't have a sense of gender, I'm not telling the truth?

Seems kind of inconsistent.

If you and your friend were out drinking and he said “hey, I’m going to go take a leak.  Grab Jim and we’ll all go together.” What would your reaction be?

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35 minutes ago, Henry Ford said:

If you and your friend were out drinking and he said “hey, I’m going to go take a leak.  Grab Jim and we’ll all go together.” What would your reaction be?

So you're resorting to behavioral stereotypes to describe what a gender "feels like"?  Pretty weak tea.

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6 minutes ago, Soonerman said:

So you're resorting to behavioral stereotypes to describe what a gender "feels like"?  Pretty weak tea.

No, I’m trying to explain to you simply that this entire conversation is about the fact that gender is just a set of social expectations about how people should or can dress, act, and present themselves to the world. 

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You may not have a strong, nuanced set of beliefs regarding your own gender, but you’ve been beaten over the head with it so long that you definitely have a sense of what it means.  

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3 minutes ago, dotman said:

One of your more sensible thoughts on the matter Henry...I should apologize for challenging your intellect as you obviously have a very powerful and sharp mind yourself...only limited by your perspective which is not broad enough to include and accept your God...and you press so hard to use your reasoning to impart your limited perspective on society...who overall still believes in the binary gender construct.

It shows how important perspective is...as obviously you possess a much superior intellect to 99% of people in the world...and they seem dumb to you and it allows you to dismiss their beliefs...

Can we talk about how you came to be this way. Who hurt you...and dimmed your perspective that your God loves you...and allowed your beautiful mind to be steered towards working to try and build a false social construct...where the only aim is material gain and self gratification in a limited 3rd density...you know there is more to life...

You will need to have faith Henry until your perspective is broad enough to include all possibilities...there is more for you to know and learn...for you to have a nearly unlimited potential if you seek the truth...and now I shall grant you the courage to go against the grain and rise above the oppressors of the human mind body and soul and of your true self...accept that there are superior beings...and you may find an even better version of yourself then what you are today...

Stay sharp...as obviously you have been surrounded and recruited by oppressors...you were targetted at a young age because of your potential...you display such incredible intellect, patience and resolve for someone with a limited perspective...I am truely impressed...and grateful for your willingness to engage in this conversation with me as most people do not get nearly as far as you...and since you love to learn you should delight in hearing you have only scratched the surface of what there is to know...can you imagine that to be true?

True knowledge is in knowing that one knows nothing.  

I hope you have attained true knowledge about your own apparent ability to effectively insult or annoy me. 

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7 hours ago, dotman said:

This issue hits close to home for Ilov80's- let's not attack him passive aggressively like this.

??

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27 minutes ago, dotman said:

One of your more sensible thoughts on the matter Henry...I should apologize for challenging your intellect as you obviously have a very powerful and sharp mind yourself...only limited by your perspective which is not broad enough to include and accept your God...and you press so hard to use your reasoning to impart your limited perspective on society...who overall still believes in the binary gender construct.

It shows how important perspective is...as obviously you possess a much superior intellect to 99% of people in the world...and they seem dumb to you and it allows you to dismiss their beliefs...

Can we talk about how you came to be this way. Who hurt you...and dimmed your perspective that your God loves you...and allowed your beautiful mind to be steered towards working to try and build a false social construct...where the only aim is material gain and self gratification in a limited 3rd density...you know there is more to life...

You will need to have faith Henry until your perspective is broad enough to include all possibilities...there is more for you to know and learn...for you to have a nearly unlimited potential if you seek the truth...and now I shall grant you the courage to go against the grain and rise above the oppressors of the human mind body and soul and of your true self...accept that there are superior beings...and you may find an even better version of yourself then what you are today...

Stay sharp...as obviously you have been surrounded and recruited by oppressors...you were targetted at a young age because of your potential...you display such incredible intellect, patience and resolve for someone with a limited perspective...I am truely impressed...and grateful for your willingness to engage in this conversation with me as most people do not get nearly as far as you...and since you love to learn you should delight in hearing you have only scratched the surface of what there is to know...can you imagine that to be true?

Thank you for reaffirming my decision to walk away from Christianity after being a believer for 30+ years. 

To everyone else, I'm sorry I spoke like dotman for as long as I did. Seriously, I'm sorry. 

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3 hours ago, Soonerman said:

So we're not allowed to disbelieve people where their gender feelings don't match their biological sex, but if I say I don't have a sense of gender, I'm not telling the truth?

Seems kind of inconsistent.

Some people don't have sense, I'll give you that. 

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1 hour ago, Politician Spock said:

Thank you for reaffirming my decision to walk away from Christianity after being a believer for 30+ years. 

To everyone else, I'm sorry I spoke like dotman for as long as I did. Seriously, I'm sorry. 

I don’t know that I knew you then, and goodness knows I’m an atheist and no fan of religion, but you can be a Christian and not do that.  Your faith is your own and no one else’s and don’t let someone else dictate your belief or lack thereof in a creator.  

Happy New Year. 

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49 minutes ago, dotman said:

When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me.

New International translation... very fancy. 

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2 hours ago, dotman said:

Such emotions are your weakness...and may only be by products of chemical reactions in your brain...do not fall for them as maybe your brain chemistry was altered only for self gratification...I am not the one who initiated this conversation in the public...in essence...I cannot annoy you...you only can believe that I can and live those emotions if you choose...

More like dot dot dotman

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1 hour ago, dotman said:

And for those intolerant and unaccepting of my beliefs...cannot ask for tolerance of others...your want of something you aren't giving is why you are frustrated with others.

We discussed earlier a truly salient point on this issue:

if two beliefs are comparable in all relevant ways, this is true. If not, it isn’t. 

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, dotman said:

You are welcome...as almost all modern versions of Christianity derive from the Catholic Church...who also sought to keep people ignorant to maintain their power...and intertwined blood sacrifice and pagan rituals with esoteric knowledge of our true nature...thus they tricked you to hurt yourself and others...

Now you see why Christianity and Catholicism is getting weaker...for the end is in the beginning...and you cannot trick someone into hurting themselves forever...for people will walk away from the game or be consumed by it...

I am beyond those notions...no God would want his son to be sacrificed...you must go beyond such boundaries with your spirituality...it was all trauma based conditioning from the start...

Who would lead you to believe this is all that is out there for you to be...limited beings who want to use you for their own goals...I desire nothing from you...I only wish for you to display your best self

And for those intolerant and unaccepting of my beliefs...cannot ask for tolerance of others...your want of something you aren't giving is why you are frustrated with others.

I still accept the possibility that god (or gods) exist, so I respect anyone who believes they've found more than just a possibility of their existence. If what they've found doesn't require faith to believe it, then I'd be interested in hearing what they've found.

What I don't respect is when they conflate their faith with reality.

Edited by Politician Spock

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2 hours ago, dotman said:

Such emotions are your weakness...and may only be by products of chemical reactions in your brain...do not fall for them as maybe your brain chemistry was altered only for self gratification...I am not the one who initiated this conversation in the public...in essence...I cannot annoy you...you only can believe that I can and live those emotions if you choose...

More like dot dot dotman

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Weirdest shtick we've seen in a while. I hope. Strange thread to debut it in. 

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32 minutes ago, ConnSKINS26 said:

Weirdest shtick we've seen in a while. I hope. Strange thread to debut it in. 

It’s only strange to someone who wears intellectual blinders...likely born from trauma...which you have denied...like the lord and savior...for whom...granted us the reason for the season...but is it schtick if...you schtick...with...it...I don’t want want your acceptance...I accept you which is more than...you do yourself

 

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27 minutes ago, Ilov80s said:

It’s only strange to someone who wears intellectual blinders...likely born from trauma...which you have denied...like the lord and savior...for whom...granted us the reason for the season...but is it schtick if...you schtick...with...it...I don’t want want your acceptance...I accept you which is more than...you do yourself

 

What if... C A T... really spelled... dog?

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can’t believe I just read that

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2 hours ago, dotman said:

And since you are about learning both sides of an issue, what are your thoughts on Walt Heyer's story? 

I thought hammering away on the internet about the definition of gender was a waste of time?

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3 hours ago, dotman said:

And since you are about learning both sides of an issue, what are your thoughts on Walt Heyer's story? 

I think Walt Heyer is entitled to make decisions for himself that he believes are best.  I think other people are also entitled to make decisions for themselves that don’t have to be based on Walt Heyer’s beliefs or his concept of God. 

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4 hours ago, dotman said:

Yes I enjoy creative writing and expressing myself and I moved back and forth between that and my actual thoughts and feelings.

I do have a relevant and serious question if you guys would like to actually discuss the topic.

What does everyone think about the idea that endocrine disrupting chemicals may cause a gender dysphoria?

 

I think it is unquestionable that high level doses of various endocrine disrupting chemicals, encountered during fetal development, can cause all kinds of sex and gender related developmental disruptions. 

I think the jury is out on whether low level doses, especially during non-fetal-development periods, can do that. 

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7 hours ago, dotman said:

Agreed. The thread is nearly 11 months old and you guys have tens of thousands of posts on these boards it would appear. I didn't intend to discuss the issue for more than a few days in which I just happen to have way more free time than usual. 

Seems like you have a real problem with that. Oh well.

Seems like you are an ####### 

 

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11 minutes ago, Ilov80s said:

Seems like you are an ####### 

 

:goodposting:

The amount of patience y'all have shown in this thread is remarkable.

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