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Dr. Dan

Indefinite Green Bay Packers Thread

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1 hour ago, KingPrawn said:

Last Sunday against the Rams, Whitehead's snap count increased at the expense of Ha Ha. The secondary looked better than it has all season, against perhaps one of the top 5 offenses in the NFL. Coincidence?

I think the healthy return of Jaire Alexander is why the secondary looked better. Whitehead spent most of the game getting torched by Todd Gurley, which granted, is a a tough assignment, but one he certainly failed.

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8 hours ago, travdogg said:

He's been inconsistent in the past for sure, but Ha Ha was the 2nd best player on the defense this year after Kenny Clark. The secondary just got a ton worse. 

Blake Martinez says Hi.  Ha Ha will be a loss and I'm concerned about safety depth now but I think he's overrated.  I guess we'll see.

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1 hour ago, travdogg said:

I think the healthy return of Jaire Alexander is why the secondary looked better. Whitehead spent most of the game getting torched by Todd Gurley, which granted, is a a tough assignment, but one he certainly failed.

Gurley's big TD catch was because Martinez got "picked" by the TE.

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35 minutes ago, shady inc said:

Season's over

Pretty much.  They'd have to win out.

Too many lost opportunities, getting screwed by the officials, and crippling amount of injuries this year.  7/11 of the starting defense from pre-season was knocked out by end of the game last night.  Usually #2 evens out but this could be the third game it cost the Packers this year.  That ejection was laughably dumb and the personal foul on what should have been running into the kicker was brutal. 

That said, the defense has showed flashes of dominance when every starter has been on the field.  If they had Martinez, Ryan, King, Alexander, Wilkerson, and Haha all on the field last night I think they win that game. 

Edited by Phenomena

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They don’t have to win out.  But obviously behind the eight ball.  Minnesota and Chicago aren’t running away with anything.

 

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Heard this on the radio this morning...

 

What are the 2 things all of these players have in common?

Damarius Randall
Quinten Rollins 
Ty Montgomery
Jake Ryan
Brett Hundley
Aaron Ripkowski
 

I think it partly explains why we are a mediocre team this year

 

 

 

 

 

 

answer: They are our entire 2015 draft class AND they are all no longer on the team. 

 

Year 3-4 you expect these guys to be turning into pretty good players, helping the team. the fact that an entire draft class was a bust is a major reason why we are where we are; we had reinvest picks into those same positions in following years.

Edited by Dr. Dan

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Game thoughts

First thing...the elephant in the room with this team.  McCarthy V Rodgers in a way.  They may claim all is fine...it can't be.  And while I think McCarthy's time is over now...I won't be one to just excuse Rodgers.  He has to play better...he has a lot of control at the line and a lot of input into things...and this offense just isn't getting it done.  They have weapons...they aren't finishing drives.  Sure in the end the D gave up 31 points...but the D kept them in the game...as it had the Rams game.  The offense is not doing them any favors.

Pettine seems to be able to do quite a lot with scheming.  Does it always work?  No, they still give up dumb big plays where people just don't seem to be covered.  Maybe thats him and scheme...maybe that is personnel with all the youth playing right now.  They seem more beat up than the other side of the ball.

2 disappointing losses in a row.  The only thing keeping them interesting for the year is that the division isn't all that great and nobody is running away with it.

 

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I would love to watch a decisive win this weekend to reinvigorate my interest.  I am feeling an 80's, Forest Gregg sort of malaise right now.

 

The thing is, the defense does get some three and outs which were a rarity in years past and the offense does seem to be able to run the ball better than years past  yet poor discipline has this team snake bit right now.  Packer penalties are not just penalties, but are effectively turn overs when they happen on forth down and extend those drives.  They are nearly so if they are major penalties on offense as they get us so far behind schedule that they massively increase our three and outs.  The lack of disciplined, intelligent play is sickening.  We have a low football I.Q. as a team.  Unacceptable.

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Time, past time to trade Rodgers to some desperate organization.  We need to get the Herschel Walker treatment plus some, the John Hadl treatment, plus some for those old enough.  Call up jerry Jones.  Tell him he can have Rodgers for Dak, Jaylen Smith, and three first rounders and three second rounders.  He is crazy enough to do it.  Demand also that he take Matthews for a third rounder.  Clear our cap, stock draft choices and start again with a new coach as well.

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1 hour ago, Ditkaless Wonders said:

Time, past time to trade Rodgers to some desperate organization.  We need to get the Herschel Walker treatment plus some, the John Hadl treatment, plus some for those old enough.  Call up jerry Jones.  Tell him he can have Rodgers for Dak, Jaylen Smith, and three first rounders and three second rounders.  He is crazy enough to do it.  Demand also that he take Matthews for a third rounder.  Clear our cap, stock draft choices and start again with a new coach as well.

:confused:

I'd rather take my chances with Kizer

This is a terrible idea, however. This is isn't Madden... If you have a franchise QB, nothing stops you from going out in FA or trades to grab the guys you need to win now. Doesn't matter how much you do that with a QB like Dak or Sam Bradford... it's not going to happen. Rodgers is the only reason this team is a few players away from being a super bowl favorite every season. 

 

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Trading Rodgers... lmfao.  I wouldn't take 10 first-round picks. You'd spend every one of those 10 trying to find another elite QB - and likely still wouldn't get one. 

This thread is off the rails. Go get some fresh air, guys.

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I was at the game at Gillette on Sunday Night.....for future reference DO NOT GO TO THE BASS PRO SHOP TO FIND AN UBER?! I have no idea how many Packer Fans (and Pats fans for that matter) were trying to get out of Foxboro the same way. Great venue and had a great time with Patriot Fans but Jeebus they need to figure out a better way to clear out. Maybe there is but my #### faced local buddy doesn't know it. GO PACK GO chants were making the NE fans uneasy right up until the fumble and the ensuing 4th quarter run away. 

Agree with DW, this team lacks discipline and football IQ while the injuries continue to collect. That said, this team has all the potential to make a run but it may be too late, again.

Hey, did you know the Red Sox won the World Series?!

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It absolutely sickens me that they won’t surround Rodgers with the support he needs to get GB to the SB.  It’s criminal to waste a talent like his and the possibility that he might end his career with only one ring.

I agree with DW - since there isn’t a willingness to sell out completely to win another SB or two then trade the guy to a team that will and reap the benefits of a lot of draft capital.

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15 minutes ago, Bronco Billy said:

It absolutely sickens me that they won’t surround Rodgers with the support he needs to get GB to the SB.  It’s criminal to waste a talent like his and the possibility that he might end his career with only one ring.

I agree with DW - since there isn’t a willingness to sell out completely to win another SB or two then trade the guy to a team that will and reap the benefits of a lot of draft capital.

What kind of draft capital would be enough for Rodgers? 

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25 minutes ago, Bronco Billy said:

It absolutely sickens me that they won’t surround Rodgers with the support he needs to get GB to the SB.  It’s criminal to waste a talent like his and the possibility that he might end his career with only one ring.

I agree with DW - since there isn’t a willingness to sell out completely to win another SB or two then trade the guy to a team that will and reap the benefits of a lot of draft capital.

What talent is lacking around him in offense?

I think the issue is with the lack of creativity in offense.  Not a lack of talent.

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11 minutes ago, sho nuff said:

What talent is lacking around him in offense?

I think the issue is with the lack of creativity in offense.  Not a lack of talent.

I would agree with this. I think the biggest issue for GB is their defense has suffered greatly. Too many blown draft picks in the secondary, which means we have to spend more picks there and neglect other areas like LB, DL. 

Offensively I am quite happy with our weapons. It's not like we need to go out and pay draft picks to trade for OBJ

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18 minutes ago, sho nuff said:

What talent is lacking around him in offense?

I think the issue is with the lack of creativity in offense.  Not a lack of talent.

 

Really?  How about a bell cow RB?  Or a legit WR1 (and please don’t say Adams is that guy - he’s a WR2).  A line that keeps the D off of him constantly.  A legit in-line TE who has decent hands and athleticism.  Any 2 of those 4 would likely make GB the team to beat in the NFC.

Look at the offensive talent that trots out surrounding Rodgers.  Put a QB lesser than Rodgers under center and this team would struggle to win 5 games.

This team is seriously lacking on talent on both sides of the ball and Rodgers is the only thing that keeps them from drafting top 5 annually.  There are a lot of vets who would probably give a discount to run with Rodgers and try to get themselves a ring.  Find those guys and either trade for them or pick them up in FA.

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38 minutes ago, Dr. Dan said:

What kind of draft capital would be enough for Rodgers? 

 

I’ve seen what one team gave for Herschel Walker and what another team gave to draft Ricky Williams.  Don’t tell me that Rodgers wouldn’t garner multiple first rounders plus additional upper mid round picks.

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2 minutes ago, Bronco Billy said:

 

Really?  How about a bell cow RB?  Or a legit WR1 (and please don’t say Adams is that guy - he’s a WR2).  A line that keeps the D off of him constantly.  A legit in-line TE who has decent hands and athleticism.  Any 2 of those 4 would likely make GB the team to beat in the NFC.

Look at the offensive talent that trots out surrounding Rodgers.  Put a QB lesser than Rodgers under center and this team would struggle to win 5 games.

This team is seriously lacking on talent on both sides of the ball and Rodgers is the only thing that keeps them from drafting top 5 annually.  There are a lot of vets who would probably give a discount to run with Rodgers and try to get themselves a ring.  Find those guys and either trade for them or pick them up in FA.

I don’t think it takes a Bell cow to win.  Jones has plenty of talent.

Adams is a #1 WR. Sorry, but he is. When has it taken a supposed true #1 to win?

The online has grades out well for the past few years.  I think the offense leads to more sacks (long developing plays and Rodgers own reluctance to force throws) than the line.

I can agree TE...but it’s not as if there is some abundance of TEs.  They have tried several the past several years.

Amd when you have a web and pay him what Rodgers makes...you can’t go out and get “#1s” at 2-3 other skill positions and a line and a defense.

amd the vet discount what?

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3 minutes ago, Bronco Billy said:

 

I’ve seen what one team gave for Herschel Walker and what another team gave to draft Ricky Williams.  Don’t tell me that Rodgers wouldn’t garner multiple first rounders plus additional upper mid round picks.

In completely different eras of the NFL.

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10 minutes ago, sho nuff said:

I don’t think it takes a Bell cow to win.  Jones has plenty of talent.

Adams is a #1 WR. Sorry, but he is. When has it taken a supposed true #1 to win?

The online has grades out well for the past few years.  I think the offense leads to more sacks (long developing plays and Rodgers own reluctance to force throws) than the line.

I can agree TE...but it’s not as if there is some abundance of TEs.  They have tried several the past several years.

Amd when you have a web and pay him what Rodgers makes...you can’t go out and get “#1s” at 2-3 other skill positions and a line and a defense.

amd the vet discount what?

 

We aren’t close to having a meeting of the minds.  You think much more highly of the O talent than I do.  Maybe they’ll show up some game ...  I guess we’ll have to agree to disagree.

Edited by Bronco Billy

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3 minutes ago, Bronco Billy said:

 

We aren’t close to having a meeting of the minds.  You think much more highly of the O talent than I do.  Maybe they’ll show up some game ...  I guess we’ll have to agree to disagree.

I agree they need to all show up.  But that includes Rodgers right now IMO. 

Graham has done alright, MVS looking good, Adams and Jones look good.  I don’t think talent is the issue.  I think the offense they are running is.

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They definitely need to bring back those quick slants and such. Especially on like 3rd and 5 or less. Adams has sick moves off the line he only needs a breath of separation for Rodgers. We used to run them all the time. One broken tackle and it’s a 20+ yard gain. 

Maybe my biggest pet peeve right now, running the stupid play clock down to 1 second or zero sometimes. The D knows it too, we are making the olines job harder because there is no suprise element. Cause everyone knows he has to hike it. 

 

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1 hour ago, Bronco Billy said:

 

I’ve seen what one team gave for Herschel Walker and what another team gave to draft Ricky Williams.  Don’t tell me that Rodgers wouldn’t garner multiple first rounders plus additional upper mid round picks.

There's a reason we haven't seen many of those trades, because it's incredibly risky. Herschel Walker is the only example, and it crippled the Vikings. Ricky Williams was an entire draft for 1 pick. That's actually not even that bad of a trade since so many draft picks don't work out. Wouldn't it have been nice if Ted Thompson traded all of his 2015 draft picks for Todd Gurley or Melvin Gordon? It would have been looked at as a ridiculous trade for GB, however none of our 2015 draft picks are currently on our team.

Draft picks are way more of a crap shoot than going out and signing a few big name FAs to make a run at a couple super bowls. 

 

How spoiled some fans must be going from one GOAT to another GOAT at QB. As if these guys are growing on trees... 

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31 minutes ago, The Claymaker said:

They definitely need to bring back those quick slants and such. Especially on like 3rd and 5 or less. Adams has sick moves off the line he only needs a breath of separation for Rodgers. We used to run them all the time. One broken tackle and it’s a 20+ yard gain. 

Maybe my biggest pet peeve right now, running the stupid play clock down to 1 second or zero sometimes. The D knows it too, we are making the olines job harder because there is no suprise element. Cause everyone knows he has to hike it. 

 

The D Line isn't looking at the play clock. They might have an internal count down in their heads, but they aren't watching it. I'd be surprised if the bolded is actually true

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6 hours ago, sho nuff said:

What talent is lacking around him in offense?

I think the issue is with the lack of creativity in offense.  Not a lack of talent.

Yep, this. And I think this will be rectified in the off-season.

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4 hours ago, Dr. Dan said:

The D Line isn't looking at the play clock. They might have an internal count down in their heads, but they aren't watching it. I'd be surprised if the bolded is actually true

It's on both ends of every stadium. Yes, they are watching it. You can see it when they get a quick jump at 1 second.

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6 hours ago, Chicago Hooligan said:

He will be the kick returner, but who really cares.

flapgreen has an alter ego packer fan account

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14 hours ago, Dr. Dan said:

The D Line isn't looking at the play clock. They might have an internal count down in their heads, but they aren't watching it. I'd be surprised if the bolded is actually true

 

Of course they are.  Players have learned to use those kinds of tools to their advantage.  Watch the good RBs and WRs on long runs - you’ll catch them looking at the game monitor at the end of the stadium to see if anyone is gaining on them.  There’s a great shot of Kareem Hunt doing that last game.

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15 hours ago, sho nuff said:

I agree they need to all show up.  But that includes Rodgers right now IMO. 

Graham has done alright, MVS looking good, Adams and Jones look good.  I don’t think talent is the issue.  I think the offense they are running is.

Rodgers does not run the offense, Rodgers runs the broken play after the offense.  Remember back in 2011 when the Packers thrived on timing routes, quick slants, screens.  When he hit receivers in stride moving across the field or down the field, we have not seen that in years.  He has fallen in love with his myth, the big broken play, the free play on encroachment calls.  Run the damn offense or get him out.  He is worth a ton of draft capital and he is crippling their salary cap.  As much as I love him, and I do, better than Favre and nearly as much as Starr, he has become both solution and problem, but often problem.

 

I know they wont trade him, what GM would have the stones.  No matter, get it turned around this week.  The offense can be good enough and the defense is getting stops the last few weeks.  Its not like the Packers have to score on every possession which has been the case in recent years, the defense is dong better.  Win this week.  Win in Seattle and their brutal road stretch is done because they will then have 10 days to prepare for the Vikes.  A little 3 game win streak here and I will feel much better, particularly if I don't see a cart on the field for another injury which injuries have had them snake bit the last few years.  I want to see a game where the Packers generate a turn over or two and where they don't give another possession to the opponent by a dumb penalty on a fourth down negating the change of possession and giving the ball back to the opponent.  No undisciplined fouls or play.

 

Go Pack Go!

Edited by Ditkaless Wonders

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14 hours ago, Dr. Dan said:

There's a reason we haven't seen many of those trades, because it's incredibly risky. Herschel Walker is the only example, and it crippled the Vikings. Ricky Williams was an entire draft for 1 pick. That's actually not even that bad of a trade since so many draft picks don't work out. Wouldn't it have been nice if Ted Thompson traded all of his 2015 draft picks for Todd Gurley or Melvin Gordon? It would have been looked at as a ridiculous trade for GB, however none of our 2015 draft picks are currently on our team.

Draft picks are way more of a crap shoot than going out and signing a few big name FAs to make a run at a couple super bowls. 

 

How spoiled some fans must be going from one GOAT to another GOAT at QB. As if these guys are growing on trees... 

I do believe that you can win with merely adequate Q.B. play if your Q.B. is a salary cap bargain and you spend at other positions. In fact I believe that is the new NFL model.

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41 minutes ago, Ditkaless Wonders said:

Rodgers does not run the offense, Rodgers runs the broken play after the offense.  Remember back in 2011 when the Packers thrived on timing routes, quick slants, screens.  When he hit receivers in stride moving across the field or down the field, we have not seen that in years.  He has fallen in love with his myth, the big broken play, the free play on encroachment calls.  Run the damn offense or get him out.  He is worth a ton of draft capital and he is crippling their salary cap.  As much as I love him, and I do, better than Favre and nearly as much as Starr, he has become both solution and problem, but often problem.

 

I know they wont trade him, what GM would have the stones.  No matter, get it turned around this week.  The offense can be good enough and the defense is getting stops the last few weeks.  Its not like the Packers have to score on every possession which has been the case in recent years, the defense is dong better.  Win this week.  Win in Seattle and their brutal road stretch is done because they will then have 10 days to prepare for the Vikes.  A little 3 game win streak here and I will feel much better, particularly if I don't see a cart on the field for another injury which injuries have had them snake bit the last few years.  I want to see a game where the Packers generate a turn over or two and where they don't give another possession to the opponent by a dumb penalty on a fourth down negating the change of possession and giving the ball back to the opponent.  No undisciplined fouls or play.

 

Go Pack Go!

In rebuttal:

Rodgers needs to deviate from the offense because McCarthy's "scheme" (if you can even call it that) depends on one thing and one thing only --- receivers who can win the 1-on-1 battle with a defender to create separation.

That scheme worked when the receivers were Jennings, Driver, Nelson, Finley, etc.   Somebody was open every damn play.   Rodgers had multiple weapons to choose from - with separation - seemingly every play.

But look at what we have now.  Can you honestly look at the past 1.5 seasons and say "man, these guys are constantly open?"

McCarthy is a dinosaur.  He's running the Air Corryel offense, a 40+ year old offensive scheme.    The concepts that highly effective young coaches are employing now (see:  LA Rams) that involve so-called legal pick plays and rub routes......the Packers just don't do any of that.  Rarely is motion incorporated.  Zero semblance of creativity to generate separation.

Perhaps, just maybe, this is why Rodgers appears frustrated.  He's probably 40 IQ points smarter than his coach, at a minimum.  Dude is a football savant.  He has to notice the reality around him.

Just my take.

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32 minutes ago, Alex P Keaton said:

In rebuttal:

Rodgers needs to deviate from the offense because McCarthy's "scheme" (if you can even call it that) depends on one thing and one thing only --- receivers who can win the 1-on-1 battle with a defender to create separation.

That scheme worked when the receivers were Jennings, Driver, Nelson, Finley, etc.   Somebody was open every damn play.   Rodgers had multiple weapons to choose from - with separation - seemingly every play.

But look at what we have now.  Can you honestly look at the past 1.5 seasons and say "man, these guys are constantly open?"

McCarthy is a dinosaur.  He's running the Air Corryel offense, a 40+ year old offensive scheme.    The concepts that highly effective young coaches are employing now (see:  LA Rams) that involve so-called legal pick plays and rub routes......the Packers just don't do any of that.  Rarely is motion incorporated.  Zero semblance of creativity to generate separation.

Perhaps, just maybe, this is why Rodgers appears frustrated.  He's probably 40 IQ points smarter than his coach, at a minimum.  Dude is a football savant.  He has to notice the reality around him.

Just my take.

And I appreciate your take.

 

As for rub routes, the Packers were among the first to employ them, and to good effect.  I remember a penalty or two early this year on some, inexplicable given the way these are called around the league, and the packers then abandoned them.  I even remember an article on the Packers site touting Adams first step on such routes, comparing him t0o some BBall players and their great first step on crossovers.

 

I had hoped that with the return of Philbin that the Packers would get back to a more diversified attacking offense like was run when he was first here.  I don't see that offense and I suspect it is because Rodgers is checking out of it.  I believe he is checking out of it because we so often see him audibling, driving the play clock down to zero before or on the snap.  

I like smart drives, quickly executed, generating 6 or 7 yards a play and first downs to T.D.'s.  Rodgers seems to want the big play.  Those come once one brings the safeties up to try to stop the runs, slants, drag routes, and quick W.R. and T.E. screens.

No worries.  Start getting right this weekend and build something great.

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2 hours ago, Ditkaless Wonders said:

And I appreciate your take.

 

As for rub routes, the Packers were among the first to employ them, and to good effect.  I remember a penalty or two early this year on some, inexplicable given the way these are called around the league, and the packers then abandoned them.  I even remember an article on the Packers site touting Adams first step on such routes, comparing him t0o some BBall players and their great first step on crossovers.

 

I had hoped that with the return of Philbin that the Packers would get back to a more diversified attacking offense like was run when he was first here.  I don't see that offense and I suspect it is because Rodgers is checking out of it.  I believe he is checking out of it because we so often see him audibling, driving the play clock down to zero before or on the snap.  

I like smart drives, quickly executed, generating 6 or 7 yards a play and first downs to T.D.'s.  Rodgers seems to want the big play.  Those come once one brings the safeties up to try to stop the runs, slants, drag routes, and quick W.R. and T.E. screens.

No worries.  Start getting right this weekend and build something great.

Would love to see more quick throws.  Agree 100% on that.  It seems like that's the only thing that has worked well this year -- and it's been when Rodgers was so injured and immobile that he had no choice.

Would love to know what is really going on....

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I think its good to have an airing of grievances.  We got a lot of problems with those people, and now we are going to hear about them.

In no real order...and add to this as you see fit.

Offense first

  • lack of creativity...seeems the same routes we have seen for years.  only creativity we see is when the play breaks down
  • 3rd and 6 or less...being specific but can apply to a few other situations too.  How often do we see this situation, 4 WRs or combo of WR/TE and at least 3 of them are 20 yards down field on long slow developing patterns with another guy around 15 yards when we need 4 or 5?  Long drop, and a sack.
  • the play clock...I agree its frustrating when it gets taken down to the end...and it happens too often.
  • missing what appear to be obvious blitzers...is that Rodgers, Linsley?

Defense

  • the opposite of our 3rd and 6 or less...lately it seems even when the D is playing well, we are letting someone free nearly right at the sticks
  • lack of any consistency (is it the youth?)

 

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Seattle has been resurgent of late.  Should be interesting.  If the Packers can take the game that gives them a mini-bye before Minnesota in a game which could have meaning.  After that the schedule lightens.  Who knows.  I'll be hoping for the best come Thursday.

 

Just once I would like to see the refs flag Carroll.  The guy spends half the game out on the field instead of in the coaching box. I hate that cud chewing putz.

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Last game...better, but still some issues.

First half...offense still so inconsistent.  And its not all game planning.  Rodgers had several passes that guys were quite open and he just missed completely.  When not even under pressure. 

Still too many 3rd down plays that look slow developing...leads to pressure and sacks. Nice seeing Jones have a really good game.  Adams penalty on the block not as bad...St. Brown needs to watch it coming back towards the LOS.

Defensively...holy crap they have tackling issues.  Jackson also struggling in coverage.  This secondary is pretty beat up right now.  The D front needs to keep that pressure up to help them out.  

Seattle games are always interesting.  Hopefully we are healthy enough on the short week to take care of business and some of these inconsistencies go away a bit.  Rodgers will need to be on his game against that D.

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14 minutes ago, kyoun1e said:

Isn't the GB secondary seriously banged up? 

Facing T. Lockett and tempted to roll R. Wilson out there. Game in Seattle as well.

Right now I've got Wilson penciled in over Ben  --

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45 minutes ago, JIslander said:

Right now I've got Wilson penciled in over Ben  --

Sticking with Rivers over him for now.

Health of GBs secondary making Wilson tempting.

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On 11/9/2018 at 7:41 AM, Ditkaless Wonders said:

Remember back in 2011 when the Packers thrived on timing routes, quick slants, screens.

I believe the lack of trust in the Rookie WR's is the reason for Rodgers not looking good this year and the vanilla offense. In the past with Nelson and Cobb he KNEW they would be where they were supposed to be and he could throw it before they made their break. He can't do that now except with Adams because he just doesn't trust they will be where they're supposed to be.

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9 hours ago, shady inc said:

Remember in 2014 when the packers recovered seattles failed onside kick attempt and went on to win the super bowl

Yeah that's about how long ago it was scary to play there.

Edited by Chicago Hooligan

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