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LGBT, LGBTQ, LGBT+ Thread (1 Viewer)

That is all very nice but the Republican controlled Senate still has to pass the bill and the WH has already indicated that Trump won't sign the bill and I imagine will veto it if it gets to his desk

https://www.washingtonblade.com/2019/05/13/exclusive-trump-comes-out-against-equality-act/

EXCLUSIVE: Trump comes out against Equality Act

With a vote on the Equality Act in the U.S. House expected on Friday, a senior administration official indicated exclusively to the Washington Blade that President Trump opposes the bill.

“The Trump administration absolutely opposes discrimination of any kind and supports the equal treatment of all; however, this bill in its current form is filled with poison pills that threaten to undermine parental and conscience rights,” the senior administration official said via email.

More details about Trump’s position on the Equality Act may come soon from the White House, which traditionally issues a Statement of Administration Policy when legislation comes to the floor of either chamber of Congress. [...]

The White House statement is consistent with the Trump administration’s anti-LGBT actions, such as the transgender military ban, withdrawal of guidance to schools assuring transgender kids have access to the restroom consistent with their gender identity and actions taken in the name of “religious freedom” seen to undermine LGBT rights.

UPDATE: A House senior Democratic leadership aide told the Blade after publication of this article Trump’s opposition to the Equality Act doesn’t change anything in terms of plans for a floor vote on Friday.


Yes, you are correct that given the current makeup of the Senate and the Executive Branch, this won't become law. Yet. However,  giving LGBTQ rights a full airing and successful vote in one branch of Congress is a really big first step. That step cannot be minimized and is really important for giving the community added awareness and public support. I think you'll see national polling moving this way over time and I'd bet that it will pass one day.

 
All 173 NO votes were from the GOP.   https://thinkprogress.org/republicans-vote-against-equality-act-banning-lgbtq-discrimination-0879ed62250a/

Last month....

In another exchange, Rep. Ken Buck (R-CO) questioned Jamie Contreras, who gave testimony about how a pediatrician turned her and her wife away for care for their child because they are lesbians.

He then asked her, “Is it your position that an Orthodox Jewish doctor whose grandparent was killed in the Holocaust should be required to work with a Nazi patient?”
https://thinkprogress.org/republicans-outrageous-arguments-against-equality-act-including-mention-of-nazis-2d5a2f1396ce/

 
Damn, just saw this and thought your number was way high - so spent some time reading the study.  It's from data that's about 10 years old now, so keep that in mind. 

The 60% figure is attempting suicide, not committing it.  They wouldn't have responded in the survey if they committed it.  The study had over 6k responders, with less than 600 of them (almost exactly 9%) saying they were refused treatment because of being trans.  But the thing that really drew my attention was that the overall suicide attempt rate of the 6k responders was already 41%.  Overall attempt rate for just "trans men" was 46%.  So yes, it is a higher rate for sure, but we're already looking at a population that has a very high suicide attempt rate on it's own. 
Absolutely.  My apologies, it should have said "attempt." 

 
https://metro.co.uk/2019/05/27/groundbreaking-gillette-ad-shows-dad-helping-transgender-son-first-shave-9699362/

Groundbreaking Gillette ad shows dad helping transgender son with first shave

The dad and his son featured in the heartfelt commercial are not actors; they are Toronto-based artist Samson Bonkeabantu Brown and his actual father as they experience a significant moment in their lives.

The opening scene shows Brown sitting on a couch with his father as he says: ‘Growing up, I was always trying to figure out what kind of man I wanted to become and I’m still trying to figure out what kind of man that I want to become.’

Brown then shown shaving as his father reassures him, saying ‘Don’t be scared. Shaving is about being confident.

Many have celebrated the ad as a gesture of inclusiveness to to kick of LGBTQ pride month in June.

On Facebook, Brown wrote a post thanking Gillette for allowing him to share the tender moment with his father. He wrote: ‘I shot this ad for Gillette and wanted to include my father, who has been one of my greatest supporters throughout my transition, encouraging me to be confident and live authentically as my best self.’

He continued: ‘I’m keenly aware of how blessed I am to be able to exist in this world being supported by my family in ways that all too often many of my trans brothers, sisters, and siblings who exist outside the binary are not always as fortunate.’

 
https://metro.co.uk/2019/05/27/groundbreaking-gillette-ad-shows-dad-helping-transgender-son-first-shave-9699362/

Groundbreaking Gillette ad shows dad helping transgender son with first shave

The dad and his son featured in the heartfelt commercial are not actors; they are Toronto-based artist Samson Bonkeabantu Brown and his actual father as they experience a significant moment in their lives.

The opening scene shows Brown sitting on a couch with his father as he says: ‘Growing up, I was always trying to figure out what kind of man I wanted to become and I’m still trying to figure out what kind of man that I want to become.’

Brown then shown shaving as his father reassures him, saying ‘Don’t be scared. Shaving is about being confident.

Many have celebrated the ad as a gesture of inclusiveness to to kick of LGBTQ pride month in June.

On Facebook, Brown wrote a post thanking Gillette for allowing him to share the tender moment with his father. He wrote: ‘I shot this ad for Gillette and wanted to include my father, who has been one of my greatest supporters throughout my transition, encouraging me to be confident and live authentically as my best self.’

He continued: ‘I’m keenly aware of how blessed I am to be able to exist in this world being supported by my family in ways that all too often many of my trans brothers, sisters, and siblings who exist outside the binary are not always as fortunate.’
I’m sure there will be no backlash and no complaining about this at all. 

 
I’m sure there will be no backlash and no complaining about this at all. 
The reaction on Twitter has surprisingly been mostly positive so far:

https://twitter.com/search?f=tweets&vertical=news&q=Gillette trans&src=tyah

However the same can't be said for YouTube. The ad was not posted by Gillette on YouTube but there are about ten videos of it, many with commentary railing against the company for "pushing the trans agenda on its male customers" (whatever that means).

 
Donald J. Trump (@realDonaldTrump)

5/31/19, 3:12 PM

As we celebrate LGBT Pride Month and recognize the outstanding contributions LGBT people have made to our great Nation, let us also stand in solidarity with the many LGBT people who live in dozens of countries worldwide that punish, imprison, or even execute individuals....on the basis of their sexual orientation. My Administration has launched a global campaign to decriminalize homosexuality and invite all nations to join us in this effort!

 
Donald J. Trump (@realDonaldTrump)

5/31/19, 3:12 PM

As we celebrate LGBT Pride Month and recognize the outstanding contributions LGBT people have made to our great Nation, let us also stand in solidarity with the many LGBT people who live in dozens of countries worldwide that punish, imprison, or even execute individuals....on the basis of their sexual orientation. My Administration has launched a global campaign to decriminalize homosexuality and invite all nations to join us in this effort!
Rep. David Cicilline, Co-Chair of the Congressional LGBT Equality Caucus, responds to Trump:

"Nice Tweet. Now, how about telling Mitch McConnell to bring up the Equality Act?"

 
Donald J. Trump (@realDonaldTrump)

5/31/19, 3:12 PM

As we celebrate LGBT Pride Month and recognize the outstanding contributions LGBT people have made to our great Nation, let us also stand in solidarity with the many LGBT people who live in dozens of countries worldwide that punish, imprison, or even execute individuals....on the basis of their sexual orientation. My Administration has launched a global campaign to decriminalize homosexuality and invite all nations to join us in this effort!
Does Trump know what the "T" stands for? Because, at the very least, he sure doesn't stand up for them.

 
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Trump, who cast himself as pro-LGBT, now under fire from Democrats for rolling back protections

The Trump administration has sided against LGBT activists on a host of issues over the past two years, including banning transgender troops from serving in the military and arguing in court that civil rights laws to do not protect employees from discrimination based on sexual orientation or gender identity. The Human Rights Campaign, a top advocacy group for LGBT issues, has created a 16-page document outlining administration actions that it says are hostile to LGBT Americans.

--

And, of course, the latest news is that his administration is going to allow adoption agencies to refuse to let same sex couples adopt.

 
:shrug:

Perhaps he thinks the bill is unnecessary because they are already equal?
Trangender people are already equal? Not as far as the Trump administration is concerned. He is still trying to keep them out of the military and backs discrimination based on religious beliefs

And 28 states still allow discrimination in employment against LGBT people simple because they are LGBT. They can be fired simply for being suspected of being LGBT.

Seriously, how can you say LGBT people are already equal?

 
Trangender people are already equal? Not as far as the Trump administration is concerned. He is still trying to keep them out of the military and backs discrimination based on religious beliefs

And 28 states still allow discrimination in employment against LGBT people simple because they are LGBT. They can be fired simply for being suspected of being LGBT.

Seriously, how can you say LGBT people are already equal?
:shrug:

They seem equal to me.

Isn’t the military ban rooted in not funding sex change operations?

I’m not in one of those 28 states, but that seems like a States rights issue?

 
They seem equal to me.

Isn’t the military ban rooted in not funding sex change operations?

I’m not in one of those 28 states, but that seems like a States rights issue?
No, because it applies to all tragendered, including those who have already transitioned.

And not surprised you are talking that this is a States rights issue, which was one of main arguments against ending segregation and race based discrimination in the 60s.

 
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Trangender people are already equal? Not as far as the Trump administration is concerned. He is still trying to keep them out of the military and backs discrimination based on religious beliefs

And 28 states still allow discrimination in employment against LGBT people simple because they are LGBT. They can be fired simply for being suspected of being LGBT.

Seriously, how can you say LGBT people are already equal?
Really?  Would you cite me to an example in case I cannot find one.

DW, are you now or have you ever been LGBT?  Well you are fired! 

Upon googling this I found that some believe that ambiguity in Title VII of the Civil rights act is tantamount to supporting such firings.  I am not sure that amounts to legally doing so, but I can appreciate that when one is forced to go to court to clear up an ambiguity that it may be a heavy burden and one I would not want personally.  I think parsing any distinctions here may be cutting things finer than I might wish to do, so I guess I can accept this statement, more than less.

 
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Really?  Would you cite me to an example in case I cannot find one.

DW, are you now or have you ever been LGBT?  Well you are fired! 

Upon googling this I found that some believe that ambiguity in Title VII of the Civil rights act is tantamount to supporting such firings.  I am not sure that amounts to legally doing so, but I can appreciate that when one is forced to go to court to clear up an ambiguity that it may be a heavy burden and one I would not want personally.  I think parsing any distinctions here may be cutting things finer than I might wish to do, so I guess I can accept this statement, more than less.
Really.  :coffee:

https://www.thedailybeast.com/state-of-lgbt-rights-married-on-sunday-but-fired-on-monday

State of LGBT Rights: Married on Sunday, but Fired on Monday

The victories for same-sex marriage are amazing. But LGBT people can still be fired or denied housing in 29 states. Still a long way to go.

If you asked most anyone in America how things were going for gay, lesbian, bisexual, and transgender people, they would probably respond, “Great!” Gay and lesbian people who live in one of the more accepting, urban settings on the East or West Coast might even agree, given that these bastions of liberal thinking have enacted many protections already. Indeed, the struggle for marriage equality for gay and lesbian couples has made great strides, going from a handful of states only a year ago in which gay and lesbian people are able to marry to an astounding 35 states at present. This is amazing progress considering that marriage equality in the first state was achieved scarcely more than a decade ago.

But there is still much work to be done to ensure that gay, lesbian, bisexual, and transgender (LGBT) people are recognized as full citizens of this country with all the rights and protections that citizenship usually bestows. In 14 of those states in which a gay or lesbian person is allowed to marry the person they love, one can get married on Sunday and be fired from his or her job on Monday morning—for the simple reason of being gay, with no employment protection or recourse in the courts.

The Center for American Progress has just released an exhaustive report on the state of LGBT rights in America as they pertain to public accommodation, access to credit, employment protection and the like. “We the People: Why Congress and U.S. States Must Pass Comprehensive LGBT Nondiscrimination Protections” goes on to describe the patchwork quilt of protections that vary depending upon the town or state in which one is living. As the report summarizes: “Today it is legal to fire, refuse housing, or deny service to Americans because of their sexual orientation and gender identity in 29 states. In most states, lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender, or LGBT, Americans currently lack explicit protections against discrimination in employment, housing, education, credit, and public accommodations. LGBT individuals and families report unacceptable levels of discrimination in the workplace, when seeking goods or services in their community’s places of public accommodation, at school, or when seeking housing. This discrimination leads to disproportionate rates of unemployment, poverty, homelessness, and negative health outcomes for LGBT people and their families.”

[...]

 
Really?  Would you cite me to an example in case I cannot find one.

DW, are you now or have you ever been LGBT?  Well you are fired! 

Upon googling this I found that some believe that ambiguity in Title VII of the Civil rights act is tantamount to supporting such firings.  I am not sure that amounts to legally doing so, but I can appreciate that when one is forced to go to court to clear up an ambiguity that it may be a heavy burden and one I would not want personally.  I think parsing any distinctions here may be cutting things finer than I might wish to do, so I guess I can accept this statement, more than less.
This issue is going up to SCOTUS based on a circuit split.  Second, Sixth, and Seventh, I believe, have found protections - Fifth and Eleventh have held there are none. 

State of Louisiana recently signed on to an amicus asking the Court to limit protections for LGBTQ+ citizens under the Act.

http://media.graytvinc.com/documents/Amicus+Brief.pdf

 
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Really?  Would you cite me to an example in case I cannot find one.

DW, are you now or have you ever been LGBT?  Well you are fired! 

Upon googling this I found that some believe that ambiguity in Title VII of the Civil rights act is tantamount to supporting such firings.  I am not sure that amounts to legally doing so, but I can appreciate that when one is forced to go to court to clear up an ambiguity that it may be a heavy burden and one I would not want personally.  I think parsing any distinctions here may be cutting things finer than I might wish to do, so I guess I can accept this statement, more than less.
This isn’t exactly a legal text but maybe the story is legit

https://www.insidesources.com/fired-im-gay-thats-still-legal-ohio/

it looks like there is an example of a court in Georgia

https://rewire.news/article/2019/01/02/employees-can-be-fired-for-being-lgbtq-in-26-states-will-the-supreme-court-make-that-even-worse/

 
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For those here that still believe the Fox, GOP and conservative talking point that LGBT folks are not subject to any discrimination in the states they live in:

https://www.nbcnews.com/feature/nbc-out/judge-rules-against-elderly-lesbians-rejected-retirement-home-n960211

Judge rules against lesbians rejected from retirement home

A federal judge this week ruled against a lesbian couple who sued a Missouri retirement home for rejecting their apartment application because their marriage is not "understood in the Bible.”

Bev Nance, 68, and Mary Walsh, 72, were married a decade ago in Massachusetts and have been in a committed relationship for roughly 40 years.

When they applied to move into the Friendship Village senior living facility, they did so “because it is in their community, they have friends there, and it offers services that would allow them to stay together there for the rest of their lives,” said Julie Wilensky, an attorney representing the couple.

But once Friendship Village staff found that Nance and Walsh are married, they told the couple that they were not allowed to move in, because the home did not condone homosexuality. The letter they received said that the only married couples they accepted were those in unions between "one man and one woman."

The couple sued, alleging “discrimination on the basis of sex,” and a federal judge in Missouri ruled Wednesday that "sexual orientation rather than sex lies at the heart of Plaintiffs’ claims.”

LGBTQ groups decried the outcome, and the couple’s lawyers said “we disagree with the court’s decision, and our clients are considering next steps.”

[...]

 
For those here that still believe the Fox, GOP and conservative talking point that LGBT folks are not subject to any discrimination in the states they live in:

https://www.nbcnews.com/feature/nbc-out/judge-rules-against-elderly-lesbians-rejected-retirement-home-n960211

Judge rules against lesbians rejected from retirement home

A federal judge this week ruled against a lesbian couple who sued a Missouri retirement home for rejecting their apartment application because their marriage is not "understood in the Bible.”

Bev Nance, 68, and Mary Walsh, 72, were married a decade ago in Massachusetts and have been in a committed relationship for roughly 40 years.

When they applied to move into the Friendship Village senior living facility, they did so “because it is in their community, they have friends there, and it offers services that would allow them to stay together there for the rest of their lives,” said Julie Wilensky, an attorney representing the couple.

But once Friendship Village staff found that Nance and Walsh are married, they told the couple that they were not allowed to move in, because the home did not condone homosexuality. The letter they received said that the only married couples they accepted were those in unions between "one man and one woman."

The couple sued, alleging “discrimination on the basis of sex,” and a federal judge in Missouri ruled Wednesday that "sexual orientation rather than sex lies at the heart of Plaintiffs’ claims.”

LGBTQ groups decried the outcome, and the couple’s lawyers said “we disagree with the court’s decision, and our clients are considering next steps.”

[...]
It's hard to believe two things in this day and age

1. that this happens in this country

2. that republicans actually want this to happen

 
:no:

More evidence of hostility or at the very least a lack of support to LGBT+ people by the Trump Administration.

Seriously, people, WTF is the problem with flying a pride flag, particularly since it was allowed during the Obama Administration without a problem?

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/national-security/trump-admin-tells-u-s-embassies-they-can-t-fly-n1015236

Trump admin tells U.S. embassies they can't fly pride flag on flagpoles

WASHINGTON — The Trump administration is rejecting requests from U.S. embassies to fly the rainbow pride flag on embassy flagpoles during June, LGBTQ Pride Month, three American diplomats told NBC News.

The U.S. embassies in Israel, Germany, Brazil and Latvia are among those that have requested permission from Trump's State Department to fly the pride flag on their flagpoles and have been denied, diplomats said.

Although the pride flag can and is being flown elsewhere on embassy grounds, including inside embassies and on exterior walls, the decision not to allow it on the official flagpole stands in contrast to President Donald Trump's claim to be a leader in supporting LGBTQ rights overseas. Trump's administration has announced a campaign to decriminalize homosexuality overseas and this month issued a tweet and formal statement to "celebrate LGBT Pride Month and recognize the outstanding contributions LGBT people have made."

The denials to U.S. embassies have come from the office of the State Department's undersecretary for management, Brian Bulatao, a longtime associate of Secretary of State Mike Pompeo who also worked for him at the CIA. Under State Department policy, embassies that want to fly the flag on their flagpoles are expected to obtain permission from Washington.

During the Obama administration, the government granted blanket permission to embassies overseas to fly the pride flag during June. This year, U.S. diplomats said, embassies were told they can display the pride flag in other places, including inside embassies, but that requests to fly it on the flagpole must be specifically approved. No approvals have been granted..

 
What am I missing in the 2nd post that’s not in the original post? 

Right now this is much ado about nothing. Damned if you do , donned if you don’t. Need this fleshed out more as to why this decision came down

 
Great choice.  :hophead:  The grand marshal is Milo Yiannopoulos, the gay poster boy for the right.

Fun facts about Milo per HuffPo:

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/milo-yiannopoulos-is-a-social-conservatives-wet-dream_b_57903f98e4b0a86259d0babc?
 

He’s admittedly promiscuous and has described his existence as a gay man as being “horribly lonely, miserable, painful and unhappy.”  Moreover, he’s said that being gay is guaranteed to bring pain and unhappiness. 

Yiannopoulos says that he would never have chosen to be gay and that he “would cure his homosexuality if he could.  Yet, he refers to being gay as a “lifestyle choice” an “enormous decision.”  In fact, he fears that if he were to raise a child, he could actually influence them toward that “lifestyle”, which is “horrifying” to him.  He says, “it’s wrong to expose an innocent child to the possibility of gay influence.”  Thus, it’s no surprise that he believes that “Kids need a mum and a dad.” 

He “genuinely seems to believe being gay leads to ‘destructive self-loathing’, describes other gay people as ‘preening poofs’ and ‘camp-as-#### ######s who’ll rape you as soon as look at you’, and believes that his friend’s baby-to-be ‘deserves to be protected’ from gay men such as himself, because it’d be ‘wrong to expose an innocent child to the possibility of gay influence.’”

He refers to homosexuality as “aberrant,” meaning “departing from an accepted standard or normal type.”  According to him, being homosexual is “wrong.”  He also claims that “the feelings of alienation and rejection it engenders are responsible for the sorts of repugnant tribal posturing you see on the streets of Soho on a Friday night, as bitterly unhappy queers engage in degrading and repulsive behavior, simply because they want to feel a part of something after a lifetime of marginalization.  Ironically, it’s precisely that profound feeling of being somehow broken that means a gay man’s sexuality often comes to be the defining characteristic of his personality. Who wouldn’t want to protect a child from a path that leads to such destructive self-loathing?”

 
Why are so few people willing to date a transgender person?  Apparently this is a difficult question to answer and required some serious research to figure out.  Here's what the author found:

In a follow-up study recently presented at the Canadian Psychological Association's annual convention, we examined people's reasons for excluding trans folk from hypothetical dating pools. By and large, the reasons given fell into three overall categories: dehumanization/prejudice, uncertainty or lack of knowledge, and issues related to bodies and reproduction. 
 I would assume that "issues related to bodies" includes something along the lines of "I'm heterosexual which means that I'm attracted to biological females, not biological males," but I can only guess that since the author doesn't acknowledge the existence of biological sex.

 
Why are so few people willing to date a transgender person?  Apparently this is a difficult question to answer and required some serious research to figure out.  Here's what the author found:

 I would assume that "issues related to bodies" includes something along the lines of "I'm heterosexual which means that I'm attracted to biological females, not biological males," but I can only guess that since the author doesn't acknowledge the existence of biological sex.
For me, my tolerance, my acceptance on this matter is one of intellect.  Emotionally, well I have issues, I suppose.  I am not very evolved.  Still, I try to not victimize others with my lack of evolution and I believe I am more or less successful.  Also, my predilections and hang-ups, if kept to myself, have little effect on that demographic because they find me no more appealing as a romantic partner than do women of a more routine history.  I am not really shrinking the pool of potentials as I am not seen as a potential.  I wish for every person a happy and fulfilling life which, for most, includes a romantic life.  I do not feel responsible personally for making the wish come true for all.

 
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Why are so few people willing to date a transgender person?  Apparently this is a difficult question to answer and required some serious research to figure out.  Here's what the author found:

 I would assume that "issues related to bodies" includes something along the lines of "I'm heterosexual which means that I'm attracted to biological females, not biological males," but I can only guess that since the author doesn't acknowledge the existence of biological sex.
I guess that's a possibility, but it certainly flies in the face of the annual search term popularity publications by pornhub.  It definitely seems from those as though there are a lot of men who identity as heterosexual who are attracted to transgender women.

 
Henry Ford said:
I guess that's a possibility, but it certainly flies in the face of the annual search term popularity publications by pornhub.  It definitely seems from those as though there are a lot of men who identity as heterosexual who are attracted to transgender women.
You don't think there's a difference between attraction and curiosity?

 
:yes:

https://www.nbcnews.com/feature/nbc-out/cracker-barrel-bars-tennessee-pastor-who-called-lgbtq-executions-sermons-n1019441

Cracker Barrel bars Tennessee pastor who called for LGBTQ executions in sermons

A Cracker Barrel restaurant refused to host a Tennessee church whose pastor, a former sheriff's department detective, said the government should execute gay people.

Grayson Fritts and his independent All Scripture Baptist Church in Knoxville had planned a meeting at the Cracker Barrel in Cleveland, Tennessee, on June 29.

The restaurant chain, however, announced they "will not be permitted onsite."

It said Tuesday in a statement on Twitter that it is not affiliated with the church or Fritts and that it "disagrees with their statements of hate and divisiveness."

"We serve everyone who walks through our doors with genuine hospitality, not hate, and require all guests to do the same," Tennessee-based Cracker Barrel said in the statement.

Fritts said during a June 9 sermon that gay people are "freaks" and "reprobates" who are “worthy of death” and should be tried and executed by the government. The sermon was posted on YouTube but has since been removed.

Numbers listed for Fritts and his church appear to have been disconnected.

 
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:yes:

https://www.nbcnews.com/feature/nbc-out/cracker-barrel-bars-tennessee-pastor-who-called-lgbtq-executions-sermons-n1019441

Cracker Barrel bars Tennessee pastor who called for LGBTQ executions in sermons

A Cracker Barrel restaurant refused to host a Tennessee church whose pastor, a former sheriff's department detective, said the government should execute gay people.

Grayson Fritts and his independent All Scripture Baptist Church in Knoxville had planned a meeting at the Cracker Barrel in Cleveland, Tennessee, on June 29.

The restaurant chain, however, announced they "will not be permitted onsite."

It said Tuesday in a statement on Twitter that it is not affiliated with the church or Fritts and that it "disagrees with their statements of hate and divisiveness."

"We serve everyone who walks through our doors with genuine hospitality, not hate, and require all guests to do the same," Tennessee-based Cracker Barrel said in the statement.

Fritts said during a June 9 sermon that gay people are "freaks" and "reprobates" who are “worthy of death” and should be tried and executed by the government. The sermon was posted on YouTube but has since been removed.

Numbers listed for Fritts and his church appear to have been disconnected.
Look up five posts, chief.  Someone beat you to the punch

 

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