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Debate: Why even bother? (1 Viewer)

Captain Cranks

Captain Cranks

Footballguy
I've come to the conclusion over the past couple years that debates with those inclined to support Trump and the rest of us are utterly fruitless and a waste of time.  It would be one thing if the discussions were grounded on logic, reason, and facts, but that's not what is going on.  It's just two sides talking at each other with not enough common ground or agreement on basic facts to make any meaningful difference.  Each of our 'tribes' are locked into their respective positions and not really interested in working together. 

Unfortunately, I don't see this changing anytime soon.  Instead of trying to reach those that continue to support Trump, I think our time and energy would be better served to energize those that can still be reached with facts.  Those Trumpers we're trying to reach have proven time and time again they're not listening.  So rather than shouting out them louder, I vote to rally others so that the power of the Trump supporter has been minimized. 

The 2018 election is right around the corner.  Let's do what we can to proverbially punch Trump and those who have been complicit in his actions in the mouth.  

 
Captain Cranks said:
I've come to the conclusion over the past couple years that debates with those inclined to support Trump and the rest of us are utterly fruitless and a waste of time.  It would be one thing if the discussions were grounded on logic, reason, and facts, but that's not what is going on.  It's just two sides talking at each other with not enough common ground or agreement on basic facts to make any meaningful difference.  Each of our 'tribes' are locked into their respective positions and not really interested in working together. 

Unfortunately, I don't see this changing anytime soon.  Instead of trying to reach those that continue to support Trump, I think our time and energy would be better served to energize those that can still be reached with facts.  Those Trumpers we're trying to reach have proven time and time again they're not listening.  So rather than shouting out them louder, I vote to rally others so that the power of the Trump supporter has been minimized. 

The 2018 election is right around the corner.  Let's do what we can to proverbially punch Trump and those who have been complicit in his actions in the mouth.  
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Part of this is a group that needs to be shown what true Trump supporters are all about so it's necessary to engage Trump supporters and let them see Trump supporters on their own.  I do agree, there's a point we hit on the effectiveness scale and it's time to quit engaging, but I think it's a necessary process.  

 
It’s pointless to try to convince a Trump fan that Trump is the worst President ever. Don’t do that.

But it’s not pointless to try to convince a Trump fan that tariffs are bad, or that getting into a Twitter war with North Korea is bad, or that pardoning people like Manafort would be bad, or that firing Mueller would be bad, and so on.

Don’t try to change someone’s whole world view all at once. That is always pointless. Pick bite-sized issues to discuss one at a time.

 
dkp993 said:
Cowboy8, weebs, noonan and riversco all were options.  But I knew I could count on stealthy to come through in a pinch.  Thanks Stealthy.  
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no problem

I was waiting for the threads on Maryland security officer saving students lives with a gun and ya'll ignored it. Then I though surely I'd log in and someone would have a thread on the school kid who injured 22 with a knife in PA ....... so we could talk about banning knives and knife regulation. Alas .... ya'll completely ignored that too.

Why even both with facts on stuff huh ?   :)

 
Stealthycat said:
no problem

I was waiting for the threads on Maryland security officer saving students lives with a gun and ya'll ignored it. Then I though surely I'd log in and someone would have a thread on the school kid who injured 22 with a knife in PA ....... so we could talk about banning knives and knife regulation. Alas .... ya'll completely ignored that too.

Why even both with facts on stuff huh ?   :)
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Ignored or didn’t hear about?  You sure about which?   

 
urbanhack said:
Anyone that disagrees with you is automatically left or liberal.  Got it.  I think we know the problem.  
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did I ever say that? I don't think I did

the lobbying for adding me to "ignore" clearly shows the inability to discuss and zero tolerance for conservative ideas IMO

 
Ramblin Wreck said:
Yeah people that support Trump are the only ones that don't listen and keep an open mind.  Nailed that one.
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This isn't about not listening or keeping an open mind.  Both sides are guilty as charged.  But my OP was about disregarding facts, logic and reason.  One side is trying to run a monopoly on that market.  

 
Stealthycat said:
no problem

I was waiting for the threads on Maryland security officer saving students lives with a gun and ya'll ignored it. Then I though surely I'd log in and someone would have a thread on the school kid who injured 22 with a knife in PA ....... so we could talk about banning knives and knife regulation. Alas .... ya'll completely ignored that too.

Why even both with facts on stuff huh ?   :)
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That happened 4 years ago, why would there be a new thread about it? Also nobody was killed. 

 
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Also we don't really know if the officer in Maryland saved any lives. The student took his own life. 

 
Stealthycat said:
did I ever say that? I don't think I did

the lobbying for adding me to "ignore" clearly shows the inability to discuss and zero tolerance for conservative ideas IMO
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No.  Plenty of people here have "lobbied" for conservative causes.  You are one of a kind.  

 
Stealthycat said:
that's funny, I have found the liberal left as unwilling to discuss things far more than I see the right
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Which things are the liberal left unwilling to discuss? (There are answers to that question, but they don’t come up very often on this board as far as I can tell.)

The “why bother debating” question does work symmetrically. A Trump fan would be wasting his time trying to convince me that Trump is awesome just as surely as I’d be wasting mine trying to convince him that Trump is horrible. There’s too much distance beteeen our positions to try to bridge the entire gap from either side.

What isn’t symmetrical on this board is the willingness to discuss the pros and cons of Trump. The anti-Trump people seem more than willing. The pro-Trump people generally don’t. The asymmetry feeds on itself. The anti-Trump people are so eager to have that debate that when a pro-Trump person wades in, he immediately feels ganged up on. The reverse isn’t true.

Nobody likes being ganged up on, so it makes sense that the pro-Trump people aren’t as enthusiastic about Trump discussions. The point remains, though, that the phenomenon is mostly one-sided. There’s a reason we have a thread implying that this forum is a liberal echo-chamber while we don’t have a thread implying that it’s a conservative (or nationalist populist or whatever Trump is) echo-chamber.

So I disagree that the liberal left is unwilling to discuss Trump.

 
I've been saying this for a while, Cranks.  No sense in arguing with them.  From their vantage point, it's probably no sense in arguing with the normals.  It's cool.  There is no room for changing minds.  We can just co-exist and as little interaction with each other we have the better because is 99% negative.  It's nothing personal.  Although MT is super smart and is more right than I am on everything, I just don't agree that picking a single issue and discussing that makes a difference.  They don't find issues first, then determine their leader.  Their leader defines their opinion on a particular subject.

We are locked in a culture war, and this is their death throes.  It may not be over for them, and they may exert some power in 2018 and 2020.  But it'll be over soon.  Their way of thinking is in the past and soon the effect of that thinking will be as well.  When that happens, threads like these will thankfully seem quaint.

 
Stealthycat said:
giant school knifing ignored by the left and media? impossible !!!
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I am neither the left or the media, just busy with my family this fine Easter Sunday.  Kudos to the security guard who saved people! (if this happened as i have not looked yet).

 
dkp993 said:
I am neither the left or the media, just busy with my family this fine Easter Sunday.  Kudos to the security guard who saved people! (if this happened as i have not looked yet).
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That happened a couple weeks ago. A male student shot his ex-gf and her new boyfriend. A school officer responded and fired a shot at the shooter as the shooter was committing suicide. The officer did a great job and responded quickly. We don’t really know if he saved any lives. It’s unlcear if the shooter was going to commit suicide at that point or if he took his life because the officer challenged him.

 
Captain Cranks said:
I've come to the conclusion over the past couple years that debates with those inclined to support Trump and the rest of us are utterly fruitless and a waste of time.  It would be one thing if the discussions were grounded on logic, reason, and facts, but that's not what is going on.  It's just two sides talking at each other with not enough common ground or agreement on basic facts to make any meaningful difference.  Each of our 'tribes' are locked into their respective positions and not really interested in working together. 

Unfortunately, I don't see this changing anytime soon.  Instead of trying to reach those that continue to support Trump, I think our time and energy would be better served to energize those that can still be reached with facts.  Those Trumpers we're trying to reach have proven time and time again they're not listening.  So rather than shouting out them louder, I vote to rally others so that the power of the Trump supporter has been minimized. 

The 2018 election is right around the corner.  Let's do what we can to proverbially punch Trump and those who have been complicit in his actions in the mouth.  
Click to expand...
Good luck fella, go punch them in the proverbial mouth. Should have a dramatic impact on mid terms if you hurry.  :popcorn:

 
Why bother?

Because these are our fellow Americans.  Just because they don't agree with me doesn't make them wrong.  They may love Trump- so what?  I hate Trump.  So what?  Neither of our opinions are invalid just because that's the starting point.

My father is an unabashed Trump supporter.  He is not "educated."  But he is not dumb. He is not a racist or a homophobe.  He is not a misogynist.  He is religious but not blinded by his faith.  He is among the finest most upstanding people I've ever met.  I think he's deluded in his political leanings and he believes the same of me.  Know what?  If we put aside the bull#### right v. left dogma, and drill down to the true issues, the two of us agree on something like 80% of the "issues."

The divisions we see in this nation between political parties, religion, social/ social justice issues, socio-economic levels, environmental concerns-- they are in large part illusory IMO.  If you can put aside these things and talk to the "person" and not the "ideology" we'll all be amazed at how similar we all are.

 
Wherever we look, we find otherwise sane men and women making extraordinary efforts to avoid changing their minds.

Of course, many people are reluctant to be seen changing their minds, even though they might be willing to change them in private, seemingly on their own terms—perhaps while reading a book. This fear of losing face is a sign of fundamental confusion. Here it is useful to take the audience’s perspective: Tenaciously clinging to your beliefs past the point where their falsity has been clearly demonstrated does not make you look good. We have all witnessed men and women of great reputation embarrass themselves in this way. I know at least one eminent scholar who wouldn’t admit to any trouble on his side of a debate stage were he to be suddenly engulfed in flames.

If the facts are not on your side, or your argument is flawed, any attempt to save face is to lose it twice over. And yet many of us find this lesson hard to learn. To the extent that we can learn it, we acquire a superpower of sorts. In fact, a person who surrenders immediately when shown to be in error will appear not to have lost the argument at all. Rather, he will merely afford others the pleasure of having educated him.

Intellectual honesty allows us to stand outside ourselves and to think in ways that others can (and should) find compelling. It rests on the understanding that wanting something to be true isn’t a reason to believe that it is true—rather, it is further cause to worry that we might be out of touch with reality in the first place. In this sense, intellectual honesty makes real knowledge possible.

Our scientific, cultural, and moral progress is almost entirely the product of successful acts of persuasion. Therefore, an inability (or refusal) to reason honestly is a social problem. Indeed, to defy the logical expectations of others—to disregard the very standards of reasonableness that you  demand of them —is a form of hostility. And when the stakes are high, it becomes an invitation to violence.

In fact, we live in a perpetual choice between conversation and violence. Consequently, few things are more important than a willingness to follow evidence and argument wherever they lead. The ability to change our minds, even on important points—especially  on important points—is the only basis for hope that the human causes of human misery can be finally overcome.

-Sam Harris

 
Liberals just need to stop crying about every percieved injustice.  The seemingly constant barrage of protests and cries of racism, homophobia, misogyny etc etc has happened so often that you can no longer be taken seriously about anything.  

Trump has MANY faults but someone in Washington is FINALLY saying and trying to do what half in this country want.   

Sorry kids, but a huge part of this country in not liberal.

 
Underachievers said:
Liberals just need to stop crying about every percieved injustice.  The seemingly constant barrage of protests and cries of racism, homophobia, misogyny etc etc has happened so often that you can no longer be taken seriously about anything.  

Trump has MANY faults but someone in Washington is FINALLY saying and trying to do what half in this country want.   

Sorry kids, but a huge part of this country in not liberal.
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Exhibit A of the issue:  Assume everyone that's not a Trump supporter is liberal. 

I've got news for you.  There are a whole lot of us who aren't liberal.  We just like to stick to facts and won't have our ideals manipulated by the words of conman and his State TV.  

 
It's a simple debate. I would just propose the question to a Trump supporter, "what would it take for Trump to do for you not to like him?"  And I'm not accepting the answer, "if he became a lib", although that is probably the best they'll come up with.

As a Trump non-supporter all it would take for me to like him would be if he would change his support for:

1. NRA

2. Abortion

3. Pruitt at EPA, opposing climate change science

4. The wall and properly understand DACA

5. Fake news

(that would be a start anyway)

 
Herb said:
Why bother?

Because these are our fellow Americans.  Just because they don't agree with me doesn't make them wrong.  They may love Trump- so what?  I hate Trump.  So what?  Neither of our opinions are invalid just because that's the starting point.

My father is an unabashed Trump supporter.  He is not "educated."  But he is not dumb. He is not a racist or a homophobe.  He is not a misogynist.  He is religious but not blinded by his faith.  He is among the finest most upstanding people I've ever met.  I think he's deluded in his political leanings and he believes the same of me.  Know what?  If we put aside the bull#### right v. left dogma, and drill down to the true issues, the two of us agree on something like 80% of the "issues."

The divisions we see in this nation between political parties, religion, social/ social justice issues, socio-economic levels, environmental concerns-- they are in large part illusory IMO.  If you can put aside these things and talk to the "person" and not the "ideology" we'll all be amazed at how similar we all are.
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Kind sentiment and I agree with it.  However no one is talking about cutting mutants out of their lives forever.  Just for political debate.  I may have misread or misunderstood something.

 
Underachievers said:
Liberals just need to stop crying about every percieved injustice.  The seemingly constant barrage of protests and cries of racism, homophobia, misogyny etc etc has happened so often that you can no longer be taken seriously about anything.  

Trump has MANY faults but someone in Washington is FINALLY saying and trying to do what half in this country want.   

Sorry kids, but a huge part of this country in not liberal.
Click to expand...
Obviously I’m someone who loves debate and discussion. But this sort of post creates a dilemma for me; there is so much false I dislike about it, so much dishonesty, that I don’t want to respond to it in a way that would invite further discussion with its writer. I feel like if I did it would be crawling through the mud with him. 

 
Maurile Tremblay said:
Which things are the liberal left unwilling to discuss? (There are answers to that question, but they don’t come up very often on this board as far as I can tell.)
Click to expand...
from OP

Captain Cranks said:
Each of our 'tribes' are locked into their respective positions and not really interested in working together. 
Click to expand...


that's how he sees the right, its how I view the left

the gun control issue is a good example

anti-gunners are Democrat, liberals with rare exceptions. They push for banning bump stocks, raising age limit 18-21, ban AR15's and high cap magazines. Facts are, bump stocks arent used in crimes really, 18-21 isn't the age group of people killing others with guns, AR15's account for like 2% of total gun deaths, and high cap magazines are interpretations of words like the mythical "assault rifle" etc.

in other words, passing those 4 things would literally do nothing - whereas the things that WOULD do something like clear backpacks, armed guards etc are fought against by the same left that claim they want schools safer

once that goes about 10 pages, then the left starts name calling, and most withdraw and refuse to discuss anymore. I've seen that run and hide on every forum I've ever been on and its mostly the left doing it. You either agree with the left, or you're wrong and that's that and you need to be silenced.

 
Captain Cranks said:
Exhibit A of the issue:  Assume everyone that's not a Trump supporter is liberal. 

I've got news for you.  There are a whole lot of us who aren't liberal.  We just like to stick to facts and won't have our ideals manipulated by the words of conman and his State TV.  
Click to expand...
This works both ways. 

If I had a nickel for every time someone called me a Republican or Conservative on this board, I'd have my own private island and cease posting. 

 
Captain Cranks said:
I've come to the conclusion over the past couple years that debates with those inclined to support Trump and the rest of us are utterly fruitless and a waste of time.  It would be one thing if the discussions were grounded on logic, reason, and facts, but that's not what is going on.  It's just two sides talking at each other with not enough common ground or agreement on basic facts to make any meaningful difference.  Each of our 'tribes' are locked into their respective positions and not really interested in working together. 

Unfortunately, I don't see this changing anytime soon.  Instead of trying to reach those that continue to support Trump, I think our time and energy would be better served to energize those that can still be reached with facts.  Those Trumpers we're trying to reach have proven time and time again they're not listening.  So rather than shouting out them louder, I vote to rally others so that the power of the Trump supporter has been minimized. 

The 2018 election is right around the corner.  Let's do what we can to proverbially punch Trump and those who have been complicit in his actions in the mouth.  
Click to expand...
I'm listening...I'm conservative and did not vote for Trump...I left the space blank as my own personal protest against the two candidates that we were given to choose from...The problem I have is the liberal side "tribe" in here doesn't want to discuss things, they want to tell you how stupid you are if you don't think like or agree with them...I literally had a meltdown yesterday because they harassed me for simply looking at a matter from a different angle, and I wasn't even disagreeing with them...Sorry for said meltdown. If you want to get your message out, do so in a non-condescending way and you may get some to listen... That would be good advice for your party as a whole...So I'm listening...What do you all want to do about immigration, job creation (manufacturing), social services (fraud), gun violence, national security, the many countries we are still involved in conflicts, race relations ..etc. 

 
Stealthycat said:
from OP

that's how he sees the right, its how I view the left

the gun control issue is a good example

anti-gunners are Democrat, liberals with rare exceptions. They push for banning bump stocks, raising age limit 18-21, ban AR15's and high cap magazines. Facts are, bump stocks arent used in crimes really, 18-21 isn't the age group of people killing others with guns, AR15's account for like 2% of total gun deaths, and high cap magazines are interpretations of words like the mythical "assault rifle" etc.

in other words, passing those 4 things would literally do nothing - whereas the things that WOULD do something like clear backpacks, armed guards etc are fought against by the same left that claim they want schools safer

once that goes about 10 pages, then the left starts name calling, and most withdraw and refuse to discuss anymore. I've seen that run and hide on every forum I've ever been on and its mostly the left doing it. You either agree with the left, or you're wrong and that's that and you need to be silenced.
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Don't forget analogies or comparisons. They don't like those either (unless they fit their narrative, then its high fives and likes from everyone).

 
Herb said:
Why bother?

Because these are our fellow Americans.  Just because they don't agree with me doesn't make them wrong.  They may love Trump- so what?  I hate Trump.  So what?  Neither of our opinions are invalid just because that's the starting point.

My father is an unabashed Trump supporter.  He is not "educated."  But he is not dumb. He is not a racist or a homophobe.  He is not a misogynist.  He is religious but not blinded by his faith.  He is among the finest most upstanding people I've ever met.  I think he's deluded in his political leanings and he believes the same of me.  Know what?  If we put aside the bull#### right v. left dogma, and drill down to the true issues, the two of us agree on something like 80% of the "issues."

The divisions we see in this nation between political parties, religion, social/ social justice issues, socio-economic levels, environmental concerns-- they are in large part illusory IMO.  If you can put aside these things and talk to the "person" and not the "ideology" we'll all be amazed at how similar we all are.
Click to expand...


great post

 
Stealthycat said:
anti-gunners are Democrat, liberals with rare exceptions. They push for banning bump stocks, raising age limit 18-21, ban AR15's and high cap magazines. Facts are, bump stocks arent used in crimes really, 18-21 isn't the age group of people killing others with guns, AR15's account for like 2% of total gun deaths, and high cap magazines are interpretations of words like the mythical "assault rifle" etc.
Click to expand...
Would it be fair to label you anti-gun controllers?  

 
Stealthycat said:
that's how he sees the right, its how I view the left

the gun control issue is a good example

anti-gunners are Democrat, liberals with rare exceptions. They push for banning bump stocks, raising age limit 18-21, ban AR15's and high cap magazines. Facts are, bump stocks arent used in crimes really, 18-21 isn't the age group of people killing others with guns, AR15's account for like 2% of total gun deaths, and high cap magazines are interpretations of words like the mythical "assault rifle" etc.

in other words, passing those 4 things would literally do nothing - whereas the things that WOULD do something like clear backpacks, armed guards etc are fought against by the same left that claim they want schools safer

once that goes about 10 pages, then the left starts name calling, and most withdraw and refuse to discuss anymore. I've seen that run and hide on every forum I've ever been on and its mostly the left doing it. You either agree with the left, or you're wrong and that's that and you need to be silenced.
Click to expand...
This is patently false as it pertains to this board and it's been shown you many times over yet you continue to say this.  It's not that people don't want to discuss the issues around here.  They do and it happens a good bit.  What they aren't interested in doing is engaging the same tired, debunked talking points over and over again.  Broken records aren't fun to listen to.  

So when you're ready to acknowledge there are many different positions on the gun scale here, you let me know.  There is more to it than "us vs them".

 
Joe Mammy said:
It's a simple debate. I would just propose the question to a Trump supporter, "what would it take for Trump to do for you not to like him?"  And I'm not accepting the answer, "if he became a lib", although that is probably the best they'll come up with.

As a Trump non-supporter all it would take for me to like him would be if he would change his support for:

1. NRA

2. Abortion

3. Pruitt at EPA, opposing climate change science

4. The wall and properly understand DACA

5. Fake news

(that would be a start anyway)
Click to expand...
I don't particularly like him now, but I don't have to like him as a person...My wealth is good, gas prices are fairly low, my job is secure, my health insurance is great, things that affect me are just fine...I'm selfish, I don't get caught up in what is going on with my neighbor, that is his responsibility...If he asks for help I will help, until then I'll assume everything is ok...

 
Why bother, because we all have to live together.  Right now I believe the left smells blood in the water.  They anticipate, and I think correctly, that they are about to achieve a resounding repudiation of Trump and his policies.  They see power returning to their hands.  They intend, this time to rule, and to rule decisively.  That rule will mean imposing their agenda and tamping down all things and folks opposed.  They have lost tolerance for those who think differently, frustrated by their lack of ability to communicate with the right and to sway them.  I understand this.  When reason and facts seem to hold no sway debate is frustrating.  The thing is, one cannot live comfortably for long suppressing (read oppressing) one's neighbors and fellow citizens.  This leads to fractious and contentious behavior and the pendulum then swings.  Power wielded too commandingly always fosters and emboldens opposition. 

I think dialog is essential. Sure, comes a time when legislative action must be taken when one is in power, but that action with dialog, even failed dialog seems like statesmanship, without it, it seems like oppression.

Maurile has the correct take, in my estimation.  Speak to issues, not sweeping generalizations, explain yourself with patience and understanding, and without denigrating the opposing side.  Find what commonalities one can, even if they are small and try to build on them.

For instance, on gun control, acknowledge that both sides are concerned for their safety.  Acknowledge that both sides are seeking security for themselves and their families.  Stop with the dialog crushing insults one to the other and accept and embrace concessions, even if they are not the concessions you seek, as maybe one concession begets another.

Oh, finally, don't accept the idea that trolls are representative of the opposing faction.  learn to marginalize the flamethrowers by ignoring them and still engaging the larger majority who are reasonable even if that has been forgotten in the shear volume trolls seem to produce.  Damn trolls are indefatigable. 

 
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I think some of you guys are cherry-picking the more classic right vs. left issues like gun control to explain your points.  You're also making this about liberals and conservatives.  My OP was about Trump supporters who seemingly disregard facts versus the rest of us.  So rather than make this about the standard right vs. left, what should we do about guns debate, I think it's more appropriate to discuss how one should attack the "there's no evidence of collusion, the FBI is part of the deep state, and Clinton needs to rot in jail" debate.   

 
Ditkaless Wonders said:
Why bother, because we all have to live together.  Right now I believe the left smells blood in the water.  They anticipate, and I think correctly, that they are about to achieve a resounding repudiation of Trump and his policies.  They see power returning to their hands.  They intend, this time to rule, and to rule decisively.  That rule will mean imposing their agenda and tamping down all things and folks opposed.  They have lost tolerance for those who think differently, frustrated by their lack of ability to communicate with the right and to sway them.  I understand this.  When reason and facts seem to hold no sway debate is frustrating.  The thing is one cannot live comfortably for long suppressing (read oppressing) one's neighbors and fellow citizens.  This leads to fractious and contentious behavior and the pendulum then swings.  Power wielded to commandingly always brings fosters and emboldens opposition. 

I think dialog is essential. Sure, comes a time when legislative action must be taken when one is in power, but that action with dialog, even failed dialog seems like statesmanship, without it, it seems like oppression.

Maurile has the correct take, in my estimation.  Speak to issues, not sweeping generalizations, explain yourself with patience and understanding, and without denigrating the opposing side.  Find what commonalities one can, even if they are small and try to build on them.

For instance, on gun control, acknowledge that both sides are concerned for their safety.  Acknowledge that both sides are seeking security for themselves and their families.  Stop with the dialog crushing insults one to the other and accept and embrace concessions, even if they are not the concessions you seek, as maybe one concession begets another.

Oh, finally, don't accept the idea that trolls are representative of the opposing faction.  learn to marginalize the flamethrowers by ignoring them and still engaging the larger majority who are reasonable even if that has been forgotten in the shear volume trolls seem to produce.  Damn trolls are indefatigable. 
Click to expand...
:goodposting:  

 
Stealthycat said:
that's funny, I have found the liberal left as unwilling to discuss things far more than I see the right
Click to expand...
The president, leader of the Republican Party, spends the majority of his time communicating with the country like a forum troll. He would probably be banned here in a few months :lol:

I think this gives the Dems the upper hand at the moment in this conversation.

 
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