BigSteelThrill
Footballguy
So what are we looking at?
Last edited by a moderator:
As just noted in the stash thread...SEA: Shaquem Griffin will be drafted too early for me.
Been awhile since the draft dust has settled.Teams that made IDP moves:
GB: I'm gonna wind up with Oren Burks on my teams. Packers traded up to get him, he was one of their guys. Other inside LBs are Jake Ryan and Blake Martinez, not exciting (Ryan one year left on deal, Martinez two). Played safety early on in college, moved to ILB. They used a higher pick on him than Ryan AND Martinez, AND it's a new GM, which is good for the new guys. I'll draft him after someone else takes Jewell.
LAC: Derwin James and Kyzir White are both worth being on the radar. White as a money backer, and James as just a great blue chip prospect. Chargers announced White as a LB. With the current Chargers LBs, you might get a starting 3 down LB really late in the draft.
MIA: Took LB Jerome Baker early 3rd round. Athletic, I saw a scouting report he played a little soft. Kiko Alonso and Raekwon McMillan there for forseeable future. Watchlist for me.
PIT: Terrell Edmunds AND Marcus Allen are both candidates for the coveted moneybacker/S designation. You could argue for drafting them both over Minkah Fitrzpatrick.
I think making the comparison of losing Shazier and trying to replace that 'rare' athlete to losing Troy Polamalu and how they struggled and have never been able to replace him is spot on.Pittsburgh is really not that much of a head scratcher. Shazier was never intended to be a traditional LB. Colbert has always had a fondness for having a superior athletic centerpiece for the defense (think Polamalu). I think ultimately they wanted Tremaine Edmunds but Terrell had the highest relative athletic score of any safety in the draft and it wasn’t close. He’ll instantly be the best athlete on the defense as soon as he steps foot on the field. I think him and Derwin James will play a “joker” type role for lack of a better term. They really can do it all including edge rush when the time calls for it. Getting Terrell Edmunds at the end of rookie drafts feels like gold to me right now.
He never stood out to me, but Pittsburgh picking him where they did certainly got my attention. I'm open minded to him becoming what they clearly want him to be, but after letting this marinate this strikes me more as a need pick than it does seeing a superstar then going and getting your guy. He's going to get an opportunity to earn a leader of the defense role, but I'm skeptical about it ever coming to fruition.Everyone is asleep at the wheel with this guy. I am not.
I suppose it’s fair to not see something in your own evaluation. I don’t think it was need based. They have Burnett, they have Davis, they needed an ILB and they could have (and were rumors of) bringing in Eric Reid. I guess I just don’t understand the poo poo’ing of the Edmunds pick. I don’t like conjecture but his whole family is NFL players and really athletic specimens at that when only looking at their workout metrics (Trey and Tremaine Edmunds; Father was Farrell, a TE; can’t speak for his athleticism). I’m just wondering if he had been selected by a needy team like the Colts or Texans at the top half of round 2 if the feelings wouldn’t be all warm and fuzzy for a high end athlete who played close to the line of scrimmage half his time in college and the other half playing almost every other position on defense.He never stood out to me, but Pittsburgh picking him where they did certainly got my attention. I'm open minded to him becoming what they clearly want him to be, but after letting this marinate this strikes me more as a need pick than it does seeing a superstar then going and getting your guy. He's going to get an opportunity to earn a leader of the defense role, but I'm skeptical about it ever coming to fruition.
If you like Terrell Edmunds and believe that he is a 'unique top player' then fine but IMHO he's not a 'unique top player' so he is not going to be able to fill the shoes of Shazier. Troy Palamalu was a lot more than an athletic numbers guy. They tried and failed to replace him but Ryan Shazier was the 'closest' to filling his shoes.By drafting Ryan Shazier out of Ohio State in 2014, Steelers general manager Kevin Colbert made a big move towards countering offenses that had been attacking the middle of the field.
They had an antidote.
The Steelers now had a player who could shoot a gap to stuff the run or get a sack on a blitz. Yet, he was just as adept at dropping back and picking off a pass or knocking one down.
... Colbert has the task of replacing someone who just recently had become a solution.
A solution expected to be with the Steelers for years to come.
"Football has changed. It's more horizontal than it is vertical," Colbert explained. "When we drafted Ryan Shazier, we talked about that. The game is changing, and Ryan was going to be a specific player to try to meet the challenges of modern football and he certainly did that for us."
Now they need another Ryan Shazier.
As if those players can just be plucked off "the linebacker tree" at the local "Pro Bowl Orchard."
...Sound like anyone we know?
Fifteen years ago, the Steelers traded up to get Troy Polamalu.
..."There's probably more specialist guys available than the unique, top players."
Unfortunately, that's what Shazier is. A "unique, top player." Now the Steelers have to hunt for a second one in five years.
"What are the Steelers gonna do on defense? They didn't even get a linebacker to fill Ryan Shazier's spot!"
No. No, they didn't.
By all accounts they tried to trade up to get Rashaan Evans of Alabama. But with limited picks to swap this year, a lack of willingness to trade from next year's pool, and walled off by conference foes who didn't want to trade, that prospect became impossible.
So, yeah, what are they going to do on defense?
I don't know if it's going to work. But here's what they are going to do.
First of all, if you are clutching onto your old-school definition of what the Steelers' 3-4 base defense has been, please let me pry it from your cold, dead hands. Because we need to crumple it up and throw it away.
My Steelers Radio Network colleague, Matt Williamson — also ofWilliamsonFootball.com — joined me on our Breakfast with Benz podcast after the draft. As a former college and pro scout, he described what will likely be the Steelers "base defense" moving forward.
"Think of it more as a 5-1," Williamson said.
The "5" up front would be familiar. For the purposes of a "starting lineup," Javon Hargrave is on the nose flanked by Stephon Tuitt and Cam Heyward. T.J. Watt and Bud Dupree would be the pass rushers on the outside of the formation as normal.
Barring a push from Cam Sutton, Artie Burns will be a starter at cornerback along with Joe Haden.
So, that's seven players. And that's all pretty familiar. Where the concept — or at least the nomenclature — changes is the "1" in "5-1."
That's basically going to be Vince Williams or Jon Bostic, playing more of a middle linebacker than a traditional 3-4 inside linebacker role.
That leaves three spots on the field to be populated by "safeties," with the two at the second level of the defense performing de facto linebacker tasks.
"I think they'll have two Kam Chancellors," said Williamson, referring to the Seahawks star safety. "If you think about Seattle, they'll have Earl Thomas as a free safety, then they'll have Kam Chancellor as kind of a lurk defender, sort of in the box. But as a high safety in the box. If you have two of them matched with a 5-1 concept, then I think that's the best way to picture this."
Presumably, one safety assuming that job would be free agent signee Morgan Burnett. Another may be Sean Davis or one of the two draft choices, Terrell Edmunds or Marcus Allen.
Granted, Chancellor is 6-foot-3 and 232 pounds. All of these Steelers safeties are a few inches shorter than that and up to 20 pounds lighter.
That's what makes Chancellor unique, though. A better comparison size-wise that Williamson offered is Telvin Smith, the Jacksonville Jaguars linebacker who tortured the Steelers at times last year. He's 2 pounds lighter and just an inch-and-a-half taller than Edmunds.
The bigger question may be who plays that "Earl Thomas" free safety role on the third level of the defense. It could be Davis or Edmunds. Or, as Williamson speculated, it may be Sutton moving from his corner position.
As Williamson cautioned, that "base" look may only be on the field one-third to one-quarter of the time against a back and two tight ends, or two backs and one tight end.
On Saturday after the draft, Mike Tomlin also differentiated the role of safeties versus linebackers in base as opposed to subpackages. That allows for the idea of Bostic and Williams still being on the field together.
When opponents go to three-receiver formations or get into more passing-prone situations, simply drop Hargrave from the unit outlined above and put Mike Hilton on the field to play his usual slot corner role.
Now, you are looking at Tuitt, Heyward, Dupree and Watt up front. Haden, Hilton and Burns as your corners, plus three safeties and either Williams or Bostic.
"This is probably something that is just indicative of the safety position in today's NFL," Tomlin said. "In sub-package defense, when you start putting DBs down in the box, several of these guys have had that in their past and we are excited about looking at that as a component of our play."
One worry is in their effort to become faster and more nimble against the pass, they leave themselves vulnerable against the run. That was something that plagued the Steelers in their four losses last year.
But it's clear the Steelers have a new motto on defense: "Safety" first.
Even if you defer to Edmunds not being a special centerpiece it’s clear they are going to put him near the line of scrimmage and treat him like a tweener back. In all of my leagues (which granted drafted immediately after the draft) Edmunds would have went undrafted had I not taken him. There is quite a bit of value if he is like a Josh Jones or Jahleel Addae.I went looking for how they might use Edmunds. This is an ambitious plan. They attempted and failed to trade-up for Rashaan Evans so that must have been plan-A.
They had to go with plan-B. Here is what the plan is. It is pretty complicated so I'm posting the entire plan. For Steelers' defense, it'll be safety first
Whoa, wait a second.Even if you defer to Edmunds not being a special centerpiece it’s clear they are going to put him near the line of scrimmage and treat him like a tweener back. In all of my leagues (which granted drafted immediately after the draft) Edmunds would have went undrafted had I not taken him. There is quite a bit of value if he is like a Josh Jones or Jahleel Addae.
Matt Williamson is having a hard time describing where he would be played because he says a 'high-safety in the box'.a lurk defender, sort of in the box. But as a high safety in the box. If you have two of them matched with a 5-1 concept, then I think that's the best way to picture this."
When he describes the base coming off the field, it doesn't affect the safeties, so who cares?Bracie Smathers said:The other thing is this 'base' is only projected to be on the field a quarter to a third of the time and it isn't a position that would seem to ring up a ton of tackles.
The plan is to have three safeties on the field in the base, a FS and two box-SS/LBer hybrids. You say it doesn't affect the safeties when the base comes off the field.When he describes the base coming off the field, it doesn't affect the safeties, so who cares?
As to it being a position that doesn't ring up a lot of tackles, SS-types playing behind weak LBs seem pretty sweet to me.
This was your quote:The plan is to have three safeties on the field in the base, a FS and two box-SS/LBer hybrids. You say it doesn't affect the safeties when the base comes off the field.
So when they play nickel or dime or goal or rush packages are you saying that they won't pull a box safety? I'm not sure I understand what you mean?
The only defense that had multiple safeties as a base that worked that I can think of is Arizona but they had Todd Bowles who is a genius IMHO. His base has been a traditional 4-3 with 4-3 personnel up front on the LOS. He skimped on OLBers but had a strong front and DBs who could cover When he ran with multiple DBs Bowles base was a 4-2 and he played a lot of slot corners and instead of two box-safeties he went with one that was a bigger SS that acted much like a 4-3 OLB. The Steelers have been a staunch 3-4 and have that sort or personnel up front and they don't have a honey badger FS/CB hybrid.
I really don't know how or if this will work with the current Steeler personnel. This new position could blow up and the upside is their but we don't even know if Terrell Edmunds will be the starter and I think they will be pulling one of those box safeties for corners or bigger LBers so I don't know what to expect but traditionally Steeler OLBers don't ring up many tackles.
You said when the base doesn't affect the safeties. I'm not sure what you mean.
Let's leave aside goalline, because the percentage is small, and we have no idea what that group looks like.The other thing is this 'base' is only projected to be on the field a quarter to a third of the time and it isn't a position that would seem to ring up a ton of tackles.
So nickel wouldn't affect the snap counts of the moneybacker type guys. Could dime result in a safety being pulled for a CB? Sure. it could also be Bostic/Williams being pulled, and Burnett/Davis/Edmunds playing almost 100% of defensive snaps, with Burnett or Edmunds as dime linebacker.When opponents go to three-receiver formations or get into more passing-prone situations, simply drop Hargrave from the unit outlined above and put Mike Hilton on the field to play his usual slot corner role.
Who Edmunds? Terrel was taken by pick 46 in all of my rookie drafts, he's nowhere near UD status in them. I wish I could get him in final rounds.Ultimately, with a draft stock of "final round rookie draft" or even UDFA, Edmunds appears to be a great upside addition to any IDP team.
Gary Davenport @IDPSharksHOU: Took Justin Reid with their first pick. This guy has a great publicist. The draft community, especially the big names, took turns jerking this guy off. I don't see a path to tons of tackles, but if he drops, I'll snag him.
Off to a quick start in his first game with 2 INTs.Right now, of the DBs taken. I really like Denzel Ward for IDP.