You've seen the NFL Policy on the Anthem. http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/23582533/nfl-owners-approve-new-national-anthem-policy
What do you think?
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NFL Policy On Anthem - What do you say? (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Joe Bryant
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Flying Elvis
Footballguy
It'll be nice that this hullabaloo will be over. It was well beyond useless since all outlets chose to discuss the act rather than the meaning. It was an epic failure since nobody actually ever talked about social inequities.
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Bronco Billy
Footballguy
I hate seeing crap like this detract from what is an entertainment event. I voted neutral, but that’s only because I think the owners capitulated and gave the players an out they didn’t have to.
Soon comes the test when a player gives the league the middle finger, comes out onto the field during the NA and kneels despite the new rule. How severe are the penalties and will they be enforced?
Soon comes the test when a player gives the league the middle finger, comes out onto the field during the NA and kneels despite the new rule. How severe are the penalties and will they be enforced?
Amused to Death
Footballguy
I think the NFL would have been better served just letting the players come out of the locker after the anthem. I know the NFL didn't require the players to be on the field until 2009 when the military started paying for what amounts to a commercial. Are they still paying the league?
I voted I don't like the rule. It will probably end up with the same fate as the crowd noise rule of '89.
I voted I don't like the rule. It will probably end up with the same fate as the crowd noise rule of '89.
themitch
Footballguy
I don't mind the rule itself, but the NFL owners were completely idiotic to not involve the Player's Association in this decision. Now, this will drag on as the owners passing down what the players need to do, rather than collaborating with the people that put the product on the field.
Totally agree. I'm not bothered by the protests, and I think the rule is silly, but the whole thing has just gotten so ridiculous. I doubt even the most die-hard player protesters are wedded to the concept of protesting the anthem itself (also worth pointing out that kneeling was itself a compromise; Kaep originally sat during the anthem, until Nate Boyer persuaded him that kneeling was more respectful). Nor, I imagine, do opponents of the players need to see them standing during the anthem. They just don't want to see the flag/country being disrespected, which is how they interpret the protests.
At this point, the entire argument seems to be over the principle of the thing (and PR. of course). Both sides want to assert their own power, and don't want to be seen as being pushed around by the other.
I also agree with @Amused to Death that the better solution would probably have just been go back to keeping players in the locker room until after the anthem. Did anyone ever complain before 2002 or whenever that the anthem was being disrespected, or that the players were being muzzled? But I suppose that would have been seen as capitulating to the players, and therefore untenable (see previous paragraph)
Chaka
Footballguy
No, it won't. Trump is already all over it for allowing players to remain in the locker room (and saying that any American who doesn't stand for the anthem should leave the country). A gubernatorial candidate in Tennessee is saying the rule doesn't go far enough.
And when the games start you can absolutely guarantee that the media will be providing detailed lists of all players who remained in the locker room every week.
No, this is far from over. It was a mistake to capitulate to a misguided, and entirely political attempt to mistakenly define Patriotism as having anything to do with a song or a flag.
steelers1080
Footballguy
Yes.
It's idiotic how this whole thing got twisted and morphed into something it's not. They players weren't and aren't protesting against the anthem, or saying they hate America. All they were doing is saying, "Hey, it sucks that so many black people are killed by cops. We think more people should care about this."
Trump came out and said that anyone kneeling hates the flag, hates the anthem, hates America. That's just not true, and it sucks that people can't see past that.
I don't like people protesting during football, because all I want to hear about is football. I come to the game I love to forget about life for a while. That said, protesting against things is pretty much the most American thing ever. That's how this country got started for ****s sake. A bunch of people got annoyed that the price of tea was going up, so they protested. The idea that kneeling before the flag is un-American is also just surprising.
I don't know about you, but at church it's MORE reverential to kneel than to stand. How is this any different? Colin K was told by a vet that it wasn't great to sit during the anthem. He agreed to stop and they came up with the idea that kneeling was ok because it paid respect but also could draw attention to the cause.
It's hypocritical (no surprise) of the league to allow concessions to continue and bathrooms to remain open during the anthem. If it's disrespectful to kneel, what is it to crap during it.
Also, if there are any people in the owner's box not standing with their hand on their heart for the anthem, they should be fined $1 million per person. If you're going to fine the players, it's only fair that you hold yourselves to the same standard.
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The irony is that, while it was obviously not disrespectful to stay in the locker room during the anthem when the entire team was doing it under the old rules, given everything that has gone on I'd say to do it now would be *more* disrespectful than kneeling. It's like saying, "I'm not even going to bother showing up for it."
Totally agree with @Chaka that this is far from over. In his usual ham-handed way, Goodell seems to have annoyed everyone. And whatever his (many, many) faults, I have to give Trump credit for one thing: He is very good at zeroing in on the grievances that get his base hopping mad. Remember, he relaunched this issue last year when he was speaking in Pensacola, giving a boring boilerplate speech, and then started riffing on Kaep and feeding off the crowd's energy.
As long as there is political value in exploiting the issue, he won't let it die a quiet death.
Aunt Jemima
Footballguy
this is a bit overboard, I think it is completely reasonable to ask them to stay in the locker room. It isn't the appropriate time for the protest and is seen as disrespectful by a very significant amount of the country. Why don't they say something when interviewed after the game instead? or on ESPN? and why are so many of the matching funds and programs the NFL made available to assist in really solving the problem going unused. I think the protesters have a point but everybody heard them already, now go do something productive about it
Completely fine with the new policy here
Tejas
Footballguy
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Borden
Footballguy
My thoughts from the other thread:
”The league is saying that it’s not okay for players to kneel because it’s disrespectful. But yet they have all the concessions open. Imposing fines because players are disrespectfully taking a knee but having stadium staff running around and talking and everything else is okay and not disrespectful enough to stop?”
To me the issue isn’t that the league isn’t trying to take some kind of moral stand, it’s that they are they are pretending to be in the hopes that they make more money.
Add in the vague wording plus no numbers attached to fines and regardless of how someone feels on the kneeling, this “rule” has been completely botched.
steelers1080
Footballguy
I agree that I wish they didn't do this during the anthem, or during the game at all. That said, kneeling before something isn't disrespecting it, that's just how 1 person decided to frame it so less people would pay attention to his issues.Aunt Jemima said:
And you say that everybody has heard them, but nothing decisive is being done about the issue, so why should they stop bringing it to light? There are many social justice issues that people take very seriously, for a short amount of time. They they slowly care less and less as the intensity that they started with fades. An example of that is gun control after mass shootings, there's lots of talk for a couple weeks, then it all fades away (regardless of where you stand on the issue, it's apparent to everyone that the anti-gun furor fades pretty quick). They continue to protest, I assume, because minorities are still being killed by police at higher rates than non-minorities and there doesn't seem to be anything being done to stop it.
I must reiterate, I don't think they should protest this during the anthem or during the game, but I do think they should have that right, especially when there's tons of people that disrespect the anthem by ignoring it completely. Every game I see plenty of people that don't stand up because they're busy eating, drinking, or on their phone. People just got into a hubbub about it because 1 guy likes to stir up trouble that takes pressure off himself.
GregR
Footballguy
Listened to sports radio today in the car. The announcer was former military. He mentioned how on military bases the National Anthem is played at 5pm in the afternoon. Military who are outside are expected to stand at attention and salute towards the flag.
But apparently that isn't expected of those who are inside buildings. So he said at 4:58 there's a sudden rush from people to get indoors before it starts playing.
Just made me chuckle a bit hearing that as I was picturing how many people will be upset at any NFL players who don't come out for it.
But apparently that isn't expected of those who are inside buildings. So he said at 4:58 there's a sudden rush from people to get indoors before it starts playing.
Just made me chuckle a bit hearing that as I was picturing how many people will be upset at any NFL players who don't come out for it.
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Tejas
Footballguy
spider321
Footballguy
I am expected to represent my employer, not myself, while at work.
The same is expected of NFL players.
Tejas
Footballguy
I respect your opinion. But I’m assuming the majority of us don’t start our day by saluting the flag listening to the anthem. Hence, why I said it’s a false narrative. This isn’t about the flag, or the anthem, or about representing an employer. It goes much deeper, systematically. The NFL wouldn’t exist without the players.
spider321
Footballguy
If I choose to say or do whatever the hell I want while at work, my employer is well within their rights to take corrective action up to and including termination of my employment.
NightStalkers
Footballguy
You might have the right under the bill of rights to use your first amendment rights but your employer can fire you as a representative of the company. Hence the player can be cut and it isn't against the bill of rights. I personally don't have a high opinion of the political people being involved in this.
There are 2 basic things going on here. The use of power by political people to further what they want (power and reelections) and the for the league it is about money. if it affects the bottom line the owners and the league office will react to protect that. In the end lower revenues also affect the players as they get a percentage of the pie.
Political activism has it's rewards and downsides. Do you favor your checkbook or your principles? That is a decision each player has to make on his own.
There are 2 basic things going on here. The use of power by political people to further what they want (power and reelections) and the for the league it is about money. if it affects the bottom line the owners and the league office will react to protect that. In the end lower revenues also affect the players as they get a percentage of the pie.
Political activism has it's rewards and downsides. Do you favor your checkbook or your principles? That is a decision each player has to make on his own.
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Chaka
Footballguy
Of course. But there is a large gray area between free speech and "whatever I want".
Tejas
Footballguy
Jello_Biafra
Footballguy
I think everyone should just shut up about all this. It's the only way it's going to go away. Let the players kneel, let them lay down, smoke a cigar, who cares? If they got no attention from the press and were just ignored this would all disappear. But no, people just want to keep rehashing this garbage, take a stance, but for what reason?
Is anytime disputing that the owners have the right to impose consequences? The question is whether they should.
Mystery Achiever
Footballguy
A couple of different NFL reporters have said the NFL expects Trump to rev up the anthem rhetoric as the the midterm elections approach, which obviously will coincide with the season. They say that's the motivation behind this.
daveR
Footballguy
No. That's not the problem. The problem is the employer FORCING their employees to make the political statement THEY want.
spider321
Footballguy
Borden
Footballguy
Just because you’re not allowed to do something doesn’t mean that no one should be allowed to it.
Your job and a NFL players are not the same, so don’t pretend that they are. Also, a player taking a knee is not the same as you running around your office doing “whatever the hell you want”. The NFL is not the same as your job. Do you get screamed by your boss? Does your boss slap your butt? We can continue down this line but I’m sure you get the point that normal workplace standards are not the same for the NFL.
spider321
Footballguy
The first amendment absolutely, positively, 1000% does not give anyone freedom from consequences if they choose to protest in the workplace. This is not even debatable. Stop it.
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Borden
Footballguy
Did I bring up the first amendment? No. I’m guessing that you meant to quote someone else? I’m talking about workplaces.
spider321
Footballguy
Me too. ALL workplaces are within their rights to not allow their employees to protest at work.
ALL workplaces.
NightStalkers
Footballguy
And who decides who works for a company? As long as this wasn't in the CBA they players don't have a recourse. No matter how good the cause may be. Like I said before the NFL would probably not react much without the money involved...
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Borden
Footballguy
And ALL workplace employees (and people) have a right not to be screamed at and their butts slapped. Yet the NFL and the media not only allows this but use it in their content and coverage. So, work places are not all the same.
spider321
Footballguy
Thank you for pointing out that not every workplace is exactly the same. ?I’m sure that is relevant in your mind, somehow. ?
daveR
Footballguy
Borden
Footballguy
Your main point was that you’re not allowed to do this at your workplace. You brought up your workplace 3 times. Now somehow it’s obvious and irrelevant when I point out that they aren’t the same?
spider321
Footballguy
I couldn’t agree more.
The players should absolutely be allowed to think and vote however they please.
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spider321
Footballguy
As far as protest at work being protected, they are absolutely the same.
...but yes, I do not get paid to throw a football, so good point, Borden.
Tejas
Footballguy
Last bit from me about this, as I think it’s perfectly stated:
Steve Kerr called the NFL's new anthem policy, which will prevent players from kneeling during the national anthem, "idiotic."
"I think it's just typical of the NFL," Kerr responded when asked about the league's new policy after shootaround Thursday in advance of Game 5 of the conference finals. "They're just playing off their fan base, and they're just basically trying to use the anthem as fake patriotism, nationalism, scaring people. It's idiotic, but that's how the NFL has handled their business."
Kerr furthermore blasted the NFL's decision to implement such a policy and applauded the NBA's handling of social justice matters.
"I'm proud to be in a league that understands patriotism in America is about free speech," he said. "It's about peacefully protesting. I think our leaders in the NBA understand that when an NFL player is kneeling, they were kneeling to protest police brutality, to protest racial inequality. They're weren't disrespecting the flag or the military, but our president decided to make it about that and the NFL followed suit and pandered to their fan base by creating this hysteria.
"It's kind of what's wrong with our country. People in high places are trying to divide us, divide loyalties, make this about the flag, as if the flag is something other than what it really is. It's a representation of what we're about, which is diversity, peaceful protest, the abilities, the right to free speech. So, it's really ironic, actually, what the NFL is doing."
Steve Kerr called the NFL's new anthem policy, which will prevent players from kneeling during the national anthem, "idiotic."
"I think it's just typical of the NFL," Kerr responded when asked about the league's new policy after shootaround Thursday in advance of Game 5 of the conference finals. "They're just playing off their fan base, and they're just basically trying to use the anthem as fake patriotism, nationalism, scaring people. It's idiotic, but that's how the NFL has handled their business."
Kerr furthermore blasted the NFL's decision to implement such a policy and applauded the NBA's handling of social justice matters.
"I'm proud to be in a league that understands patriotism in America is about free speech," he said. "It's about peacefully protesting. I think our leaders in the NBA understand that when an NFL player is kneeling, they were kneeling to protest police brutality, to protest racial inequality. They're weren't disrespecting the flag or the military, but our president decided to make it about that and the NFL followed suit and pandered to their fan base by creating this hysteria.
"It's kind of what's wrong with our country. People in high places are trying to divide us, divide loyalties, make this about the flag, as if the flag is something other than what it really is. It's a representation of what we're about, which is diversity, peaceful protest, the abilities, the right to free speech. So, it's really ironic, actually, what the NFL is doing."
NE_REVIVAL
Footballguy
I think it is sad that virtually all the people posting on the subject would agree with the adage that there are 2 sides to every story and the truth most often can be found somewhere in between.
Yet somehow when it comes to political ideology (nowadays) there is no in between. So many of us seem determined to decide not only what we are offended\bothered by, but ALSO what other people are allowed to be offended by.
There are fewer and fewer aspects of life where we can put political ideology aside and all come together for however briefly it may be and that is very bad thing imho.
Sports used to be one of the few things that brought us all together and now we don't even have that (of course that is exactly what some want).
People have a right to protest even if the manner in which they choose to do so offends tens of millions of people.
The NFL as a business has the right to endorse or not to endorse/promote said protest/manner if they feel it will offend tens of millions of people (IE customers).
Its as simple and as complicated as that imho.
chinawildman
Footballguy
Whether it's idiotic, racist, or considered pandering to their fan base is TBH the business of the NFL. Meaning since they are a private organization, they are entitled to do what they feel is appropriate for their business. A divisive issue like race means they will never make everybody happy, and they are after all a for-profit organization. So why should they not reserve the right to do what's best for business?
If you don't like it, don't watch the NFL.
If you don't like it, don't watch the NFL.
Borden
Footballguy
So we’ve established that you’re not in same workplace and the fact that your workplace doesn’t let protest mean other employers should allow protests of various nature. Now we can get back to why the rule is terrible.
Players that want to protest can still can by staying in the locker room. Which is terrible because it shows even more divide. A can cause just as much media as the kneel. Not mention this announcement stirring the fire back up.
The NFL shows that all they care about is money since they didn’t shut down concessions and such last year during the anthem and haven’t said anything about doing that going forward. So, no one who cares about the flag being disrespected should feel any better. Exploiting people’s patriotism just feels like a really bad thing to do.
spider321
Footballguy
The reason this is so divisive is not race, it's politics. This started as a racial inequality issue and got politicized, when it was just a racial issue it hardly got attention.
Borden
Footballguy
It’s okay spider. This concept of other people being allowed to do stuff whether you’re allowed to or not is too complicated. We can just carry without each other.[Borden] A = B so purple unicorns taste like rainbows.[/Borden]
?
chinawildman
Footballguy
I'm not so sure... before Trump got involved it was already a hotly debated topic. Maybe I'm just seeing through different lenses as a 49er fan? Besides, it maybe a politicized topic now, but it's a topic based predicated on race... and any issue based on race is often a polarizing one to its immutable characteristics.
Borden
Footballguy
The question wasn’t whether the NFL should be allowed to do it. And just because you don’t like one thing doesn’t mean that you can’t discuss it or are going to give up on the whole thing. The whole purpose of the question (and message boards in general) is to discuss it. I bet a lot of Raiders fans don’t like the tuck rule, it doesn’t mean they quit watching football.
Spider probably doesn’t like me right now but that doesn’t mean he’s going to give up on “us”.
spider321
Footballguy
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