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How Drew Brees is being underestimated

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5 minutes ago, BoltBacker said:

I like Brees. Always have. He put NO football on the map. Give him all the credit in the world.

But where do we think Stafford ends up if he stays as healthy as Brees has and plays just as long? Does that change how we think about Brees if he does that or are we prepared to say Stafford is a legend? I'm a fan of Stafford too, but I don't think people are nearly as quick to throw around the term legend with him.

Overall, I'm guessing people in decade from now won't be debating Brady vs Brees. They'll be debating Brady vs Montana and debating Brees vs Stafford. That's the difference. And it's a big difference.

Brees and the Saints ushered in a new era in NFL football. The Saints quickly became my favorite team to watch after Brees and Payton arrived. Win or lose you knew the game was going to be fun to watch. Also I always tried to get Saints players on my FF teams.  Had Brees a few times, Colston his rookie year and twice after, Henderson once, Graham.

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On 10/9/2018 at 5:25 AM, Alex P Keaton said:

In what world is Rivers HOF caliber?

 

On 10/9/2018 at 10:58 AM, Shawnky said:

Did I actually just read that Philip Rivers is a HOF caliber QB??   Oh wow.......


He's #6 in all time in Passing TDs and #8 in all time in passing yards.  

Within the next two years he will be ahead of Marino in almost every statistical category out there (passing tds, passing yards, completion %, passing rating, playoff record, etc)

Why wouldn't he be a Hall of Famer?

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7 hours ago, Deamon said:

 


He's #6 in all time in Passing TDs and #8 in all time in passing yards.  

Within the next two years he will be ahead of Marino in almost every statistical category out there (passing tds, passing yards, completion %, passing rating, playoff record, etc)

Why wouldn't he be a Hall of Famer?

Watch yesterday's game.  He finds creative ways to lose --- like getting the defense fired up to get INTs because he's so busy trash talking them.

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33 minutes ago, Alex P Keaton said:

Watch yesterday's game.  He finds creative ways to lose --- like getting the defense fired up to get INTs because he's so busy trash talking them.

Never has someone so gifted done so little with so much.

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On 5/31/2018 at 11:52 AM, Flying Elvis said:

Underestimated? No. 

Deserving of more attention? Probably. Perhaps he should be a bit more dapper and get a supermodel wife then build a mansion with a moat.

It would also help if he were a few inches taller. 

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9 hours ago, Deamon said:

 


He's #6 in all time in Passing TDs and #8 in all time in passing yards.  

Within the next two years he will be ahead of Marino in almost every statistical category out there (passing tds, passing yards, completion %, passing rating, playoff record, etc)

Why wouldn't he be a Hall of Famer?

He should be, but Marino is still better IMO. The NFL was not a pass happy entertainment fest when guys like Marino, Montana, Elway, etc were playing. Makes what Marino did even more awesome to me.

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I think it's worth noting that Brees posted 4 TDs last night. Ok he's done that before, it wouldn't surprise me if he has done it more than any other QB (too good to check). Anyway what I think was notable was that the Saints were missing what they had planned as their nos. 2-4 WRs, and all four TDs went to undrafted free agents:

  • Tommylee Lewis - UDFA, Northern Illinois, 2016.
  • Austin Carr - UDFA, Northwestern, 2017.
  • Dan Arnold - UDFA, Wisconsin-Platteville, 2017.
  • Keith Kirkwood - UDFA, Temple, 2018.
Edited by SaintsInDome2006
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Brees is HoF. Is there even a debate about this? 

Those throws were absolute dimes. He was great at Purdue, struggled in the NFL for a bit, and is now great again. He rode the crest of the wave to greatness with New Orleans. Just simply one of the best to ever play the game.  

Edited by rockaction

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25 minutes ago, SaintsInDome2006 said:

I think it's worth noting that Brees posted 4 TDs last night. Ok he's done that before, it wouldn't surprise me if he has done it more than any other QB (too good to check). Anyway what I think was notable was that the Saints were missing what they had planned as their nos. 2-4 WRs, and all four TDs went to undrafted free agents:

  • Tommylee Lewis - UDFA, Northern Illionois, 2016.
  • Austin Carr - UDFA, Northwestern, 2017.
  • Dan Arnold - UDFA, Wisconsin-Platteville, 2017.
  • Keith Kirkwood - UDFA, Temple, 2018.

He’s second all time. Peyton Manning is first. 

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9 minutes ago, rockaction said:

Brees is HoF. Is there even a debate about this? 

Those throws were absolute dimes. He was great at Purdue, struggled in the NFL for a bit, and is now great again. He rode the crest of the wave to greatness with New Orleans. Just simply one of the best to ever play the game.  

Yep. 

Below the Brady/Montana/Marino/Peyton tier but barely.

Pretty sure I'd take him over favre.

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2 minutes ago, JohnnyU said:

I bet the Chargers wish they had kept Brees and traded Rivers.

I actually watched Brees with the Chargers. It wasn't pretty for the first part. That might have been why the parted ways with him.  

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1 minute ago, rockaction said:

I actually watched Brees with the Chargers. It wasn't pretty for the first part. That might have been why the parted ways with him.  

I distinctly remember him looking good his last two years with the Chargers.   He had 4,418 yards 26 TDs  64.3% completion and 4423 yards and 28 TDs and 67.5% completion.

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1 minute ago, JohnnyU said:

I distinctly remember him looking good his last two years with the Chargers.   He had 4,418 yards 26 TDs  64.3% completion and 4423 yards and 28 TDs and 67.5% completion.

For the first part, I said. It was awful. The last two was about right. They didn't sign him because of shoulder issues, IIRC.  

So you're right, you just didn't read my comment correctly, is all.  

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Always seems to be put in the tier just below Brady, Manning, and Rodgers but he belongs right up there with them, IMO.

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1 hour ago, -OZ- said:

Below the Brady/Montana/Marino/Peyton tier but barely.

Brees is kind of having Marino's career in some respects.

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1 minute ago, dickey moe said:

Always seems to be put in the tier just below Brady, Manning, and Rodgers but he belongs right up there with them, IMO.

If someone is ranking by titles, I get Brady and Manning (I guess) ... but when people think Rodgers is better than Brees, what are the criteria? Beyond scrambling/running, what's going into that Rodgers > Brees equation?

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24 minutes ago, JohnnyU said:

I distinctly remember him looking good his last two years with the Chargers.   He had 4,418 yards 26 TDs  64.3% completion and 4423 yards and 28 TDs and 67.5% completion.

Brees's history in San Diego:

  • 2001 - Sat behind Flutie and didn't play (27 passing attempts), even though the team finished 5-11 and Flutie had a 72.0 passer rating.
  • 2002 - Brees became the starter and finished with a 76.9 passer rating. The team finished 8-8. Not bad for a first year starter, but improvement needed.
  • 2003 - Brees regressed and had a 67.5 QB rating and a 2-9 record, missing 5 games due to injury; 41 year old Flutie was 2-3 in those 5 games and had a 82.8 passer rating. The Chargers were justified in thinking they needed to draft another QB, since Brees did not appear to be ready to succeed after 3 NFL seasons. At this point in his career, he had 29 passing TDs and 31 interceptions in 28 games.
  • 2004 - If Rivers hadn't held out as a rookie in 2004, it is very possible he would have beaten Brees out and who knows how things would have transpired... but to his credit, Brees seized that opportunity and put up a great season. The team finished 12-4, and Brees had a 104.8 passer rating and made the Pro Bowl. He had just 7 interceptions.
  • 2005 - Brees regressed, dropping to a 89.8 passer rating with 15 interceptions. The team finished 9-7 and missed the playoffs. Brees suffered a serious shoulder injury in the last game, and Rivers had to finish the game.

Lumping Brees's 2004 and 2005 seasons together glosses over the fact that his 2005 season wasn't nearly as good as his 2004 season. Given that, his injury, his UFA status, and Rivers' contract, the team made an easy and obvious decision to let him walk.

Edited by Just Win Baby
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28 minutes ago, Just Win Baby said:

No, they absolutely don't. This has been covered many times in the Shark Pool, including in this very thread.

I know you're a big Rivers and NC State homer, but you have to admit Brees' career has been a lot better than Rivers.  That's the reason why the Chargers would probably have been better off keeping Brees and trading Rivers.

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14 minutes ago, JohnnyU said:

I know you're a big Rivers and NC State homer, but you have to admit Brees' career has been a lot better than Rivers.  That's the reason why the Chargers would probably have been better off keeping Brees and trading Rivers.

Of course his career has been better; I have never suggested otherwise. But that is because of his years in New Orleans, not his years in San Diego. Brees got to play for Sean Payton there, while Rivers played all but 1 starting season in his career for Norv Turner, Mike McCoy, and Anthony Lynn. Apples and oranges.

I disagree that the Chargers would have been better off keeping Brees, because IMO he wouldn't have played as well in the Chargers' dysfunctional organization under clearly lesser (especially offensively) coaching staffs.

Edited by Just Win Baby

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2 minutes ago, Just Win Baby said:

Of course his career has been better; I have never suggested otherwise. But that is because of his years in New Orleans, not San Diego. Brees got to play for Sean Payton there, while Rivers played all but 1 starting season in his career for Norv Turner, Mike McCoy, and Anthony Lynn. Apples and oranges.

I agree that you can't say that Brees' success would have been guaranteed in San Diego, but in hindsight there is a good chance it would have.  Or at least in the eyes of non-biased eyes it would have.

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7 minutes ago, JohnnyU said:

I agree that you can't say that Brees' success would have been guaranteed in San Diego, but in hindsight there is a good chance it would have.  Or at least in the eyes of non-biased eyes it would have.

I'm fine agreeing to disagree that the Chargers would have been better off if Brees had stayed with the Chargers for his entire career to date and the team instead traded or released Rivers, assuming all of the same dysfunction (Spanos organization), coaching staffs (Norv, McCoy, Lynn), and surrounding talent (e.g., mostly poor OL).

But it doesn't even matter. The point was whether or not the Chargers made the right decision at the time on Brees-Rivers. They clearly did, based on contracts, salary cap, Brees's injury at that time, and the talent level of the two players.

Edited by Just Win Baby

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Just now, Just Win Baby said:

I'm fine agreeing to disagree that Brees would have been better if he stayed with the Chargers for his entire career to date, and assuming all of the same dysfunction (Spanos organization), coaching staffs (Norv, McCoy, Lynn), and surrounding talent (e.g., mostly poor OL).

But it doesn't even matter. The point was whether or not the Chargers made the right decision at the time on Brees-Rivers. They clearly did, based on contracts, salary cap, Brees's injury at that time, and the talent level of the two players.

How many more years do you think Rivers will play?  

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1 minute ago, JohnnyU said:

How many more years do you think Rivers will play?  

He is under contract through 2019, but he has indicated he wants to remain the starter at least until the team moves into Kroenke's stadium, scheduled for the 2020 season. I think he will probably play 2-4 more seasons after this one. A lot probably depends on how good the team is around him. If the team stays in playoff contention, I think he is more likely to play longer. If it crashes again under Lynn, I think he is more likely to retire sooner.

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5 minutes ago, Just Win Baby said:

He is under contract through 2019, but he has indicated he wants to remain the starter at least until the team moves into Kroenke's stadium, scheduled for the 2020 season. I think he will probably play 2-4 more seasons after this one. A lot probably depends on how good the team is around him. If the team stays in playoff contention, I think he is more likely to play longer. If it crashes again under Lynn, I think he is more likely to retire sooner.

The thing I like about Rivers is that his leadership qualities remind me of Bert Jones.  I think Jones was a better passer, but his career was cut short due to injuries.  Some have said that Jones could have been the best ever at the position and Bill Belichick said he was the best pure passer he's ever seen and that includes Tom Brady.   Rivers has that same field presence and I like him for it.

Edited by JohnnyU
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On 10/9/2018 at 8:30 AM, BoltBacker said:

I like Brees. Always have. He put NO football on the map. Give him all the credit in the world.

But where do we think Stafford ends up if he stays as healthy as Brees has and plays just as long? Does that change how we think about Brees if he does that or are we prepared to say Stafford is a legend? I'm a fan of Stafford too, but I don't think people are nearly as quick to throw around the term legend with him.

Overall, I'm guessing people in decade from now won't be debating Brady vs Brees. They'll be debating Brady vs Montana and debating Brees vs Stafford. That's the difference. And it's a big difference.

Is there another Stafford in the league???

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On 10/9/2018 at 10:30 AM, BoltBacker said:

I like Brees. Always have. He put NO football on the map. Give him all the credit in the world.

But where do we think Stafford ends up if he stays as healthy as Brees has and plays just as long? Does that change how we think about Brees if he does that or are we prepared to say Stafford is a legend? I'm a fan of Stafford too, but I don't think people are nearly as quick to throw around the term legend with him.

Overall, I'm guessing people in decade from now won't be debating Brady vs Brees. They'll be debating Brady vs Montana and debating Brees vs Stafford. That's the difference. And it's a big difference.

I don't think anyone will be comparing to Stafford at the end of the rainbow. 

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On 10/9/2018 at 10:30 AM, BoltBacker said:

. They'll be debating Brady vs Montana and debating Brees vs Stafford. That's the difference. And it's a big difference.

Difference being one is a reasonable debate among fans. The other is a drunk Lions fan.

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5 hours ago, Doug B said:

If someone is ranking by titles, I get Brady and Manning (I guess) ... but when people think Rodgers is better than Brees, what are the criteria? Beyond scrambling/running, what's going into that Rodgers > Brees equation?

I always thought Rodgers and Manning for that matter were coronated by the football community prematurely with little regard for past achievements.  It was as if they were assumed to be great and the burden of proof was the on those questioning them.   On the other hand, Brees and Brady had to prove it more - which of course they did.

I don't see the need to rank the four of them but people will in every conceivable order.  I'd like to see Brees win at least one more which will be a major talking point in these "debates".

 

 

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5 hours ago, -OZ- said:

Difference being one is a reasonable debate among fans. The other is a drunk Lions fan.

Stafford hasn't missed a game since 2010. If you were to assume that Stafford played to the same age Brees is now how many yards do you think he'll have?

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23 minutes ago, BoltBacker said:

Stafford hasn't missed a game since 2010. If you were to assume that Stafford played to the same age Brees is now how many yards do you think he'll have?

:lmao:   Who cares how many yards he will have?   How many titles will he have?  What will his lifetime winning % be?

Stafford and Brees don't belong in the same sentence when discussing QBs and their all time ranking.

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6 minutes ago, Alex P Keaton said:

:lmao:   Who cares how many yards he will have?   How many titles will he have?  What will his lifetime winning % be?

Stafford and Brees don't belong in the same sentence when discussing QBs and their all time ranking.

Considering this thread got bumped as Brees was about to break the yardage record after many months of inactivity I'm guessing some people care about yards. But maybe I'm wrong.

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Just now, BoltBacker said:

Considering this thread got bumped as Brees was about to break the yardage record after many months of inactivity I'm guessing some people care about yards. But maybe I'm wrong.

Uh, yeah.  Because he also wins games and championships.  But you already know that.

Edited by Alex P Keaton

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3 minutes ago, Alex P Keaton said:

Uh, yeah.  Because he also wins games and championships.  But you already know that.

Actually, Brady and Montanta will be compared in the future because they win championshipS. Several.

But you may not have known that.

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It is all about being in the right place for success.   If the Detroit Lions had drafted Joe Montana he would have been a journeyman.  Brees was good in SD but exploded with success with Sean Peyton and the offense in NO. Brees made 6th rd picks like Colston All-Pro players..the Saints could put anyone out there and Brees would make them better.  That is the mark of a HOF QB

Edited by Da Guru
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9 minutes ago, BoltBacker said:

Actually, Brady and Montanta will be compared in the future because they win championshipS. Several.

But you may not have known that.

There is more to ranking QBs than rings because american football is about more than one player.  Having said that, I would rank all-time QBs as Montana #1 and Brady #2 (reluctantly).

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12 minutes ago, BoltBacker said:

Actually, Brady and Montanta will be compared in the future because they win championshipS. Several.

But you may not have known that.

:lmao:   Whatever man.  Keep moving whatever imaginary bar you're trying to create in here.   Nobody will be comparing Brees and Stafford.  It's a ridiculous concept unless something radical changes.

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36 minutes ago, Alex P Keaton said:

:lmao:   Who cares how many yards he will have?   How many titles will he have?  What will his lifetime winning % be?

Stafford and Brees don't belong in the same sentence when discussing QBs and their all time ranking.

As a Lion fan Stafford is a good QB..not an elite QB by any means.

Edited by Da Guru
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1 hour ago, BoltBacker said:

Stafford hasn't missed a game since 2010. If you were to assume that Stafford played to the same age Brees is now how many yards do you think he'll have?

Don't know don't care. Don't care about Brees yardage either. It's the leadership that matters.

Stafford played 7 years with the best wr of this era. And he is a good QB. Franchise QB even. But he's not close to Brees. 

If we're talking stats, the only major categories Stafford has led the league in has been attempts twice and completions once. 

Brees has shouldered his team for over a decade. Yards is a side effect of that, but yards alone don't make the player. 

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7 hours ago, Chaz McNulty said:

Is there another Stafford in the league???

You do realize that Brees has won a Superbowl--Stafford hasn't come close--and that he has set NFL all time passing records right?  Stafford? Not in the same conversation. 

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On 11/23/2018 at 7:41 PM, az_prof said:

You do realize that Brees has won a Superbowl--Stafford hasn't come close--and that he has set NFL all time passing records right?  Stafford? Not in the same conversation. 

I think you have me on the wrong side of this argument.  Maybe my post was unclear, but I don't think Stafford is anywhere close to Brees.  Stafford is average.

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On 11/23/2018 at 8:43 PM, BoltBacker said:

Actually, Brady and Montanta will be compared in the future because they win championshipS. Several.

But you may not have known that.

How many times has Stafford even made the playoffs? He's average, nothing more.

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