Fantasy Football - Footballguys Forums
Yogibear

How Drew Brees is being underestimated

Recommended Posts

4 minutes ago, FF Ninja said:

The indoor/outdoor stats are interesting. Where do you get those?

The individual player pages at Yahoo Sports list all sorts of splits. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The best way to look at who's on pace to break the passing records is to go to www.nflcomparisons.com.  And, yes, you can compare Tom Brady's stats to that of Drew Brees.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, BoltBacker said:

I would have loved to see what Lamar Jackson might have done in that system. Probably my single most disappointing moment in the draft when all that capital was used to trade up for..... Davenport!? I already can't wait for the 2019 draft. It's a sickness that gets worse every year.

Brees isn't Flacco.  Why trade up for a player that won't help you win now when you're in a win now mode?  Davenport has the most upside for his position and is an absolute athletic freak.  Why didn't NE draft Jackson?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, cloppbeast said:

He's a volume passer, compared to Brady. Wonder what kind of stats Brady would have if he passed 600+ times 7 years in a row.  Brady has better career numbers in TD percentage, int percentage, and yards per. 

Brees is definitely an all time great, but not as good as Brady.

 

Apples and oranges.  I wonder what kind of numbers Brees would have playing for a coach who throws all over the field when up by 4 TDs and two minutes left in the game?

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, FF Ninja said:

...but the most difficult factors to consider are quality of coaches and quality of surrounding talent. I don't think anyone would argue Brady hasn't had better coaches and surrounding talent than just about everyone else throughout his career. Stats will never do that advantage justice.

Coach clearly. 

But not everyone is going to agree that Welker, Edelman, branch, Blount, Ridley, Troy Brown, and gronk are better surrounding talent than everyone else. Gronk is probably the ? too, but the rest?

I honestly don't know who the everyone is here, but I think Peyton, Montana, and Steve Young had better surrounding talent out of the guys I'd put in or near the top 10 off hand.

Edited by -OZ-
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Going into this season, they both have thrown for 488 career TD passes apiece.  So, the question is: who's going to have more at the end of this year?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 5/29/2018 at 8:24 PM, Yogibear said:

We all know that Drew Brees is going to pass Peyton Manning on the alltime career passing yardage list sometime this season, probably Week 5 against the Redskins.  But, I just saw something on www.espn.com that said that he wants to play at a high level until he's 45.  He's only 51 touchdown passes away from Peyton Manning's alltime record of 539.  But, the fact that he only has one ring and Tom Brady has five is a clear sign that no one outside the city of New Orleans is paying attention.  Drew Brees is probably going to be the first Saint to have his jersey retired.  And, still, the only thing people want to talk about is Tom Brady playing until he's 45.  That makes the fact that Drew Brees is chasing history less appreciative.  And, that's sad.  When it's all said and done, Tom Brady may end up with at least 5 rings, but Drew Brees is going to be the guy with all the records.  Are we not appreciating that fact enough?

I think Brees is well appreciated by the fantasy community, the public and all NFL circles.  But Brady is always going to be the polarizing figure.  There are championships, controversies, heated rivalries, super models, villains and larger than life characters in the Patriot's story: Belichick; Gronk, Hernandez, etc.  Regardless of how you feel about Brady, he has accomplished more than any other QB in the most important metrics - wins and championships.  What might have happened in parallel universes is simply speculation.

I'm a big Brees fan.  The Saints have to succeed as a team for him to get the same pub as Brady.  It's a shame that they bowed out on a freak play last season and missed a shot at the NFC Championship.  A second ring for Brees would have been huge.  I have little doubt the Brees will get due credit for the records he breaks.  It just won't be same as Brady without the drama and story line.  I just don't see that back drop in N'Orleans.

Now, if Brees were to finish his career with the Steelers, Giants or another enticing situation, the story line could change.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Yogibear said:

Going into this season, they both have thrown for 488 career TD passes apiece.  So, the question is: who's going to have more at the end of this year?

That is *the* question? Well, Brady had 32 and Brees had 23 in 2017. Seems likely Brady will have more.

Have we actually uncovered any evidence so far that supports the OP? I don't think so.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, Just Win Baby said:

 

Have we actually uncovered any evidence so far that supports the OP? I don't think so.

The original point being that Brees is underappreciated? Nope

He's one of the most esteemed QBs in FF and most people like him. He might not have ever been the best player in the league for a year, he's had to compete with Peyton, Brady, Rodgers, and others, but the man gets respect.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 hours ago, -OZ- said:

Coach clearly. 

But not everyone is going to agree that Welker, Edelman, branch, Blount, Ridley, Troy Brown, and gronk are better surrounding talent than everyone else. Gronk is probably the ? too, but the rest?

I honestly don't know who the everyone is here, but I think Peyton, Montana, and Steve Young had better surrounding talent out of the guys I'd put in or near the top 10 off hand.

:lmao: Two words: Bill Polian

As soon as he was finally fired from the Colts he was exposed as a quack. Peyton was saddled with that clown from 1998-2011!! Also, by surrounding talent I'm including defense. Peyton never had a defense. Brady got to start his career as a game manager with a top defensive unit. Peyton walked into a dumpster fire. He made Bill Polian look competent. I remember early in my fantasy football days comparing where offensive linemen were drafted and the Colts didn't have any starters drafted earlier than the 6th round. I thought Polian was some sort of master OL drafter, but in hindsight I think Peyton should get all the credit there for knowing when to get rid of the ball and/or knowing when to audible another play.

I agree Brady hasn't always had the best WRs, but Moss, Welker, Edelman, and Branch are better than what Brees had to deal with most of his career. And Brees did more with a 35 y.o. Watson than Brady did with Watson in his prime. In his San Diego days (4 years starting), Brees did have Gates (equal to Gronk, IMO) for his first 3 years in the league (Gates' rookie year was not notable, tho), but his leading WR was Eric Parker. In NO, the best he ever had was Colston until late in his career when he got Cooks and MT (I'm very curious how MT will do without Brees - I'm betting not well). Neither one of those guys could hold a candle to Moss, though.

And I wasn't just talking about the big names you mentioned. I know it'll be unpopular, but I really think it would've been interesting to see how a guy like Rivers could've done with a competent coach and GM. I think he went 14-2 with his one season with Marty Schottenheimer, but after that it was Norv Turner :X. And I think we all remember what a total D-bag AJ Smith was as a GM. He's got a better ypa than Brady and a similar TD:PA ratio and his leading WR is Malcom Floyd. He and VJax did combine for three 1000 yard seasons, though.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
35 minutes ago, FF Ninja said:

.

I agree Brady hasn't always had the best WRs, but Moss, Welker, Edelman, and Branch are better than what Brees had to deal with most of his career. And Brees did more with a 35 y.o. Watson than Brady did with Watson in his prime. In his San Diego days (4 years starting), Brees did have Gates (equal to Gronk, IMO) for his first 3 years in the league (Gates' rookie year was not notable, tho), but his leading WR was Eric Parker. In NO, the best he ever had was Colston until late in his career when he got Cooks and MT (I'm very curious how MT will do without Brees - I'm betting not well). Neither one of those guys could hold a candle to Moss, though.

And I wasn't just talking about the big names you mentioned. I know it'll be unpopular, but I really think it would've been interesting to see how a guy like Rivers could've done with a competent coach and GM. I think he went 14-2 with his one season with Marty Schottenheimer, but after that it was Norv Turner :X. And I think we all remember what a total D-bag AJ Smith was as a GM. He's got a better ypa than Brady and a similar TD:PA ratio and his leading WR is Malcom Floyd. He and VJax did combine for three 1000 yard seasons, though.

Sure. Although Rivers did have one of the best receiving TEs ever. I'm taking Gates, Tomlinson, Jackson and Floyd over Brady's best 4.

We could debate the pats receivers vs the saints. Or just say they both were not stellar but their QB helped make them look good.

Edited by -OZ-

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
34 minutes ago, FF Ninja said:

:lmao: Two words: Bill Polian

As soon as he was finally fired from the Colts he was exposed as a quack. Peyton was saddled with that clown from 1998-2011!! Also, by surrounding talent I'm including defense. Peyton never had a defense. 

 

Wait, what?

 

Manning had Edge, Harrison, Wayne, Clark, and Pollard surrounding him throughout his Colts career, plus all sorts of very solid role players as well as the most dominant pass blocking Oline in the league.  And having a crappy D year after year is one of the best components for compiling huge passing numbers.

 

I’m not going to diminish Manning.  I believe he is the GOAT at QB (I know, very arguable but don’t want to get into that in this thread).  He was literally an OC on the field as well as distributing the ball as well as he did.  He just butchered Ds.  But my memory of what Manning had to assist his putting up the numbers he did is very different than yours.

 

.

Edited by Bronco Billy
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 minutes ago, Bronco Billy said:

Wait, what?

Manning had Edge, Harrison, Wayne, Clark, and Pollard surrounding him throughout his Colts career, plus all sorts of very solid role players as well as the most dominant pass blocking Oline in the league.  And having a crappy D year after year is one of the best components for compiling huge passing numbers.

I’m not going to diminish Manning.  I believe he is the GOAT at QB (I know, very arguable but don’t want to get into that in this thread).  He was literally an OC on the field as well as distributing the ball as well as he did.  He just butchered Ds.  But my memory of what Manning had to assist his putting up the numbers he did is very different than yours..

As I mentioned in my post, surrounding talent includes OL and defense and I maintain his OL was never actually that talented - he made them look good by calling audibles and getting rid of the ball quickly. Peyton got 5 good years out of Edge and how much of that was because Edge was playing with Peyton? Age 27 with Peyton, he's averaging 4.2 ypc. Age 28 without Peyton he's averaging 3.4 ypc. It's a minor quibble but I think we all agree Edge wasn't the same after tearing his ACL - it was a potentially career ending injury back then. And are we really going to act like Clark and Pollard were special players??

I also pointed out earlier (not the post you replied to) that having a crappy defense tends to increase passing volume, but it hurts your efficiency numbers. It's a lot harder to pass when everyone knows you're going to.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, FF Ninja said:

As I mentioned in my post, surrounding talent includes OL and defense and I maintain his OL was never actually that talented - he made them look good by calling audibles and getting rid of the ball quickly. Peyton got 5 good years out of Edge and how much of that was because Edge was playing with Peyton? Age 27 with Peyton, he's averaging 4.2 ypc. Age 28 without Peyton he's averaging 3.4 ypc. It's a minor quibble but I think we all agree Edge wasn't the same after tearing his ACL - it was a potentially career ending injury back then. And are we really going to act like Clark and Pollard were special players??

I also pointed out earlier (not the post you replied to) that having a crappy defense tends to increase passing volume, but it hurts your efficiency numbers. It's a lot harder to pass when everyone knows you're going to.

I don't know if Dallas Clark was "special" but he was a very good player (one of the first "move" type TEs) and a first round NFL pick, as was Marvin Harrison, Reggie Wayne and Edgerrin James. Let's not pretend those players didn't help Peyton out at all. He was surely a great QB (top 5 all time?) but the Colts went out of their way to surround him with offensive talent.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
33 minutes ago, -OZ- said:

Sure. Although Rivers did have one of the best receiving TEs ever. I'm taking Gates, Tomlinson, Jackson and Floyd over Brady's best 4.

We could debate the pats receivers vs the saints. Or just say they both were not stellar but their QB helped make them look good.

Rivers got two good years out of Tomlinson (after that his ypc fell off a cliff), so let's not overstate things here. Gates = Gronk. 3 years of Jackson << 3 years of Moss. And Malcom Floyd is not even worth mentioning. But the point was that Rivers has been saddled with a crappy coach and GM for most of his career. It would've been interesting to see how he'd have done in a better situation and how Brady would've fared behind a crap OL with Norv Turner calling the plays. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 minutes ago, FF Ninja said:

As I mentioned in my post, surrounding talent includes OL and defense and I maintain his OL was never actually that talented - he made them look good by calling audibles and getting rid of the ball quickly. Peyton got 5 good years out of Edge and how much of that was because Edge was playing with Peyton? Age 27 with Peyton, he's averaging 4.2 ypc. Age 28 without Peyton he's averaging 3.4 ypc. It's a minor quibble but I think we all agree Edge wasn't the same after tearing his ACL - it was a potentially career ending injury back then. And are we really going to act like Clark and Pollard were special players??

I also pointed out earlier (not the post you replied to) that having a crappy defense tends to increase passing volume, but it hurts your efficiency numbers. It's a lot harder to pass when everyone knows you're going to.

I’m not going to turn this into a Manning thread, but you and I are miles apart on this.  I can’t help but think you are jaded for some reason, because some of these comments IMO are completely inexplicable.  I’m going to refrain from continuing in this thread on this.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Dr. Octopus said:

I don't know if Dallas Clark was "special" but he was a very good player (one of the first "move" type TEs) and a first round NFL pick, as was Marvin Harrison, Reggie Wayne and Edgerrin James. Let's not pretend those players didn't help Peyton out at all. He was surely a great QB (top 5 all time?) but the Colts went out of their way to surround him with offensive talent.

Sure, these guys were all first round picks, but let's utilize hindsight and realize that Polian was a buffoon and it's quite possible Peyton made all those guys look better than they were. And saddling him with a hoard of undrafted offensive linemen and a wet paper towel defense didn't actually do him any favors. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, Bronco Billy said:

I’m not going to turn this into a Manning thread, but you and I are miles apart on this.  I can’t help but think you are jaded for some reason, because some of these comments IMO are completely inexplicable.  I’m going to refrain from continuing in this thread on this.

:shrug:

Not jaded about anything. I just acknowledge that Polian was a hack and there's more to a team than the fantasy football relevant players. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, FF Ninja said:

:shrug:

Not jaded about anything. I just acknowledge that Polian was a hack and there's more to a team than the fantasy football relevant players. 

 

Please don’t stray into jerk territory.  Have a great day.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, Bronco Billy said:

Please don’t stray into jerk territory.  Have a great day.

There was genuinely nothing malicious in my comment. Please don't make something out of nothing. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, FF Ninja said:

I know it'll be unpopular, but I really think it would've been interesting to see how a guy like Rivers could've done with a competent coach and GM. I think he went 14-2 with his one season with Marty Schottenheimer, but after that it was Norv Turner :X. And I think we all remember what a total D-bag AJ Smith was as a GM. He's got a better ypa than Brady and a similar TD:PA ratio and his leading WR is Malcom Floyd. He and VJax did combine for three 1000 yard seasons, though.

I suspect that among QBs that are at least borderline HOF worthy, Rivers has had the worst run of head coaches in history. He has been the primary starter for 12 seasons and had these head coaches:

Marty Schottenheimer - 1 year (great)
Norv Turner - 6 years (bad)
Mike McCoy - 4 years (worse)
Anthony Lynn - 1 year (jury's out)

IMO his career accomplishments are even more impressive considering those head coaches.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
41 minutes ago, FF Ninja said:

Sure, these guys were all first round picks, but let's utilize hindsight and realize that Polian was a buffoon and it's quite possible Peyton made all those guys look better than they were. And saddling him with a hoard of undrafted offensive linemen and a wet paper towel defense didn't actually do him any favors.

I would disagree with that bolded statement I guess - not saying he was infallible and while I acknowledge Manning covered up some warts, the Colts team that Polian built did win a Super Bowl (and their defense during that playoff run was pretty good). Their subsequent GMs were far worse than Polian.

It's also quite possible all those guys helped make Peyton look even better than he was. Let's not pretend Harrison, Wayne and James were not extremely talented (they were all consensus first round picks) - and Dallas Clark was far better than you want to acknowledge.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

For starters, in this era of football it’s pretty hard to complain that things were unfair when comparing teams. All teams have the same amount to spend, have the same amount of draft picks, and can sign the same free agents. Saying that a team had a poor defense likely meant they had the wrong personnel, spent more on offense, or had poor coaching. If a team paid out more for skill position players on offense, in theory that should lead to more points and yards offensively. 

As far as Peyton goes, it’s not like he was deprived of ever having decent defensive units. The Colts defense in the Peyton era had 5 seasons in the Top 10 in points allowed including years ranked as #1 and #2. Two times they ranked in the Top 10 in yardage allowed. 

Manning also had two years with DEN where the defense ranked Top 5 in points allowed and 3 Top 5 seasons in yardage allowed. 

Both the Colts and Broncos were in position to win more titles than they did. I am not going to hang that all on Peyton, but Peyton led teams were only slightly over .500 in the post season (14-13).

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Dr. Octopus said:

I would disagree with that bolded statement I guess - not saying he was infallible and while I acknowledge Manning covered up some warts, the Colts team that Polian built did win a Super Bowl (and their defense during that playoff run was pretty good). Their subsequent GMs were far worse than Polian.

It's also quite possible all those guys helped make Peyton look even better than he was. Let's not pretend Harrison, Wayne and James were not extremely talented (they were all consensus first round picks) - and Dallas Clark was far better than you want to acknowledge.

Didn't he just recently say Lamar Jackson was too short to play QB? He's up there with Casserly in my "why is anyone paying them to talk?" category.

I'm not saying Dallas Clark was bad, but he wasn't special, either. Every time I watched a pass slip through his fingers I got frustrated that he was too proud to wear gloves. There's a reason everyone wears them! Either way, Clark only had two notable seasons in his career with Peyton. Three if you want to count a 58 catch season, but his catch rate of 57% that year was poor for a TE (again, I blame the lack of gloves). Outside of that, his 4th most notable season was 37 rec. He wasn't a difference maker. Receptions in Indy: 29, 25, 37, 30, 58, 77, 100, 37, 34.

I think Peyton's run in Denver is proof that he was not propped up by Harrison/Wayne/Clark and that he could've been even more ridiculous if he'd had a halfway decent GM while he was playing for Indy. When speaking of the incompetence surrounding Peyton, this clip always comes to mind and makes me smile: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DttfyOeU3vw

But you're 100% correct - they did somehow put together a good defense that super bowl year. 

FWIW, I'm not even an Indy fan. I just watched a lot of football during the span of his career and couldn't help but get the feeling they were wasting his talent, much like I feel Rodgers is being wasted in Green Bay now.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 minutes ago, FF Ninja said:

you're 100% correct - they did somehow put together a good defense that super bowl year. 

The irony here is the Colts SB year their defense was terrible in the regular season. They ranked 23rd in points allowed and 21st in yardage allowed. They performed better in the playoffs in three of their games (allowing 8, 6, and 17 points). The Colts very easily could have lost to NE in the AFCC that year (giving up 34 points and getting down 21-3). Of all the Peyton led teams, that one would not have been the one that stood out as a future SB winner. The offense wasn't as strong as other years and the defense wasn't as could as many other years.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
19 minutes ago, Anarchy99 said:

The irony here is the Colts SB year their defense was terrible in the regular season. They ranked 23rd in points allowed and 21st in yardage allowed. They performed better in the playoffs in three of their games (allowing 8, 6, and 17 points). The Colts very easily could have lost to NE in the AFCC that year (giving up 34 points and getting down 21-3). Of all the Peyton led teams, that one would not have been the one that stood out as a future SB winner. The offense wasn't as strong as other years and the defense wasn't as could as many other years.

Oh snap, I was looking at 2007 stats since they won the super bowl in 2007. Doh. Should've been looking at 2006.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Underestimated? No. 

Deserving of more attention? Probably. Perhaps he should be a bit more dapper and get a supermodel wife then build a mansion with a moat.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
42 minutes ago, Anarchy99 said:

The irony here is the Colts SB year their defense was terrible in the regular season. They ranked 23rd in points allowed and 21st in yardage allowed. They performed better in the playoffs in three of their games (allowing 8, 6, and 17 points). The Colts very easily could have lost to NE in the AFCC that year (giving up 34 points and getting down 21-3). Of all the Peyton led teams, that one would not have been the one that stood out as a future SB winner. The offense wasn't as strong as other years and the defense wasn't as could as many other years.

The prevailing theory at the time was that Bob Sanders missed most of the regular season and returned for the playoffs - which turned them around. Their defense (especially against the run) was night and day with Sanders healthy versus him being hobbled or out.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 hours ago, Just Win Baby said:

That is *the* question? Well, Brady had 32 and Brees had 23 in 2017. Seems likely Brady will have more.

Have we actually uncovered any evidence so far that supports the OP? I don't think so.

One would think that based on last year, Brady will throw for more TDs.  BUT, since 2006, there have been 7 seasons where Brees has thrown for more, and that doesn't even include the 2008 season where Brady didn't play because of his knee injury.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Underappreciated in terms of his career achievements, yeah I'd agree with that.

But I think a lot of people are rightly down on his prospects for 2018, based on the direction the offense took in 2017.  I have him as barely a QB1 at this point.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Brees is clearly a Hall of Famer, and he was not as good as Manning or Brady. I think all 3 of these views are pretty close to a consensus.

 

4 hours ago, Anarchy99 said:

The Colts defense in the Peyton era had 5 seasons in the Top 10 in points allowed including years ranked as #1 and #2. Two times they ranked in the Top 10 in yardage allowed.

These rankings don't reflect the quality of the defense. The Colts faces fewer drives per game than most teams, since teams tried to grind out long drives against them. If you're only facing 15 games worth of drives in a 16 game season, then it's not impressive if you allow fewer total points than average. In Manning's 13 seasons, the Colts D had just 2 (2005 & 2007) where they were in the top 10 in fewest points allowed per drive, and 0 where they were in the top 10 in fewest yards allowed per drive.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 5/29/2018 at 7:24 PM, Yogibear said:

We all know that Drew Brees is going to pass Peyton Manning on the alltime career passing yardage list sometime this season, probably Week 5 against the Redskins.  

This is about to happen.

 

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 5/29/2018 at 7:24 PM, Yogibear said:

Drew Brees is probably going to be the first Saint to have his jersey retired. 

Officially. Only one player has ever worn No. 8 for the New Orleans Saints - Archie Manning.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 5/29/2018 at 7:24 PM, Yogibear said:

He's only 51 touchdown passes away from Peyton Manning's alltime record of 539. 

He also just broke Brett Favre's all time completion record.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Here's the point that I was trying to make when I started this topic: Tom Brady may end up with more regular season wins than any QB in NFL history, but Drew Brees is going to hold all the regular season passing records when it's all said and done.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 minutes ago, Yogibear said:

Here's the point that I was trying to make when I started this topic: Tom Brady may end up with more regular season wins than any QB in NFL history, but Drew Brees is going to hold all the regular season passing records when it's all said and done.

To quote Vince Lombardi, "Passing yards isn't everything.  It's the only thing."

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
15 minutes ago, Yogibear said:

Here's the point that I was trying to make when I started this topic: Tom Brady may end up with more regular season wins than any QB in NFL history, but Drew Brees is going to hold all the regular season passing records when it's all said and done.

If that is the point you were trying to make, why did you title the thread "How Drew Brees is being underestimated" and state in your OP that "no one outside the city of New Orleans is paying attention" to Brees? Those statements seemed to be your focus, not what you claim here.

And here you are merely making statements of fact that are not really open to debate. So... you just wanted to make a thread to comment on a couple of well known facts?

Edited by Just Win Baby

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@Just Win Baby I waited like 15 years to tell ya I told ya so :-) (so pathetic that my life is so...that I remember Rivers and Brees debates. )

Vinatieri in the HOF next!

Have a good night man

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It sucks that we didn't get to see #500 tonight, and now we've got to wait at least another two weeks for that milestone.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, Bri said:

@Just Win Baby I waited like 15 years to tell ya I told ya so :-) (so pathetic that my life is so...that I remember Rivers and Brees debates. )

Vinatieri in the HOF next!

Have a good night man

Told me so about what? You were always wrong in your take in those Brees-Rivers debates, and you never got that, as evidenced by this post. You ignored the facts. :shrug: 

For anyone thinking the Chargers blew it by letting Brees walk, let's review:

1. Brees was not healthy at that time.

2. Brees never played at a level close to his New Orleans level in San Diego. His 4th season was impressive but he followed that with a solid but unspectacular 5th season before getting hurt at the end of the season.

3. Rivers was under a large rookie contract with a significant penalty if they tried to trade or release him in order to re-sign Brees. Combining that with the contract re-signing Brees would have required made it a non-starter from a cap perspective.

4. Oh, by the way, Rivers has been a HOF caliber QB since Brees walked, and the Chargers organization knew how good he was. People tend to overlook the fact that Rivers has played the past 11 seasons under HCs Norv, McCoy, and Lynn and the cheapskate/incompetent Spanos organization, while Brees played for HC Payton and owner Tom Benson.

I'm glad it worked out for Brees. But it is revisionist history to suggest that the Chargers did the wrong thing with him. Lord knows, the Chargers have made as many or more bad decisions over the years as any team other than maybe the Browns, but this wasn't one of them.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This man is appreciated in New Orleans. We’ve never had an all time great in anything, this was a fantastic night in the Dome.

Edited by SaintsInDome2006

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, Just Win Baby said:

Told me so about what? You were always wrong in your take in those Brees-Rivers debates, and you never got that, as evidenced by this post. You ignored the facts. :shrug: 

For anyone thinking the Chargers blew it by letting Brees walk, let's review:

1. Brees was not healthy at that time.

2. Brees never played at a level close to his New Orleans level in San Diego. His 4th season was impressive but he followed that with a solid but unspectacular 5th season before getting hurt at the end of the season.

3. Rivers was under a large rookie contract with a significant penalty if they tried to trade or release him in order to re-sign Brees. Combining that with the contract re-signing Brees would have required made it a non-starter from a cap perspective.

4. Oh, by the way, Rivers has been a HOF caliber QB since Brees walked, and the Chargers organization knew how good he was. People tend to overlook the fact that Rivers has played the past 11 seasons under HCs Norv, McCoy, and Lynn and the cheapskate/incompetent Spanos organization, while Brees played for HC Payton and owner Tom Benson.

I'm glad it worked out for Brees. But it is revisionist history to suggest that the Chargers did the wrong thing with him. Lord knows, the Chargers have made as many or more bad decisions over the years as any team other than maybe the Browns, but this wasn't one of them.

Oh I love this, always fun to debate with JWB

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, Just Win Baby said:

Told me so about what? You were always wrong in your take in those Brees-Rivers debates, and you never got that, as evidenced by this post. You ignored the facts. :shrug: 

For anyone thinking the Chargers blew it by letting Brees walk, let's review:

1. Brees was not healthy at that time.

2. Brees never played at a level close to his New Orleans level in San Diego. His 4th season was impressive but he followed that with a solid but unspectacular 5th season before getting hurt at the end of the season.

3. Rivers was under a large rookie contract with a significant penalty if they tried to trade or release him in order to re-sign Brees. Combining that with the contract re-signing Brees would have required made it a non-starter from a cap perspective.

4. Oh, by the way, Rivers has been a HOF caliber QB since Brees walked, and the Chargers organization knew how good he was. People tend to overlook the fact that Rivers has played the past 11 seasons under HCs Norv, McCoy, and Lynn and the cheapskate/incompetent Spanos organization, while Brees played for HC Payton and owner Tom Benson.

I'm glad it worked out for Brees. But it is revisionist history to suggest that the Chargers did the wrong thing with him. Lord knows, the Chargers have made as many or more bad decisions over the years as any team other than maybe the Browns, but this wasn't one of them.

In what world is Rivers HOF caliber?

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, Bri said:

@Just Win Baby I waited like 15 years to tell ya I told ya so :-) (so pathetic that my life is so...that I remember Rivers and Brees debates. )

Vinatieri in the HOF next!

Have a good night man

If you put Rivers in that offense with that many pass attempts..... I wonder what the pinball machine would read at the end of a decade or two?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, Alex P Keaton said:

Just to clarify, Earth in the year 2018?

Correct. I know you disagree, since we have discussed this in this thread. I think you will ultimately be proven wrong, but we probably won't know for another decade or so. :shrug: 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, Just Win Baby said:

Correct. I know you disagree, since we have discussed this in this thread. I think you will ultimately be proven wrong, but we probably won't know for another decade or so. :shrug: 

Huh.  I actually forgot we discussed it.   That's cool.   I like Rivers.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I like Brees. Always have. He put NO football on the map. Give him all the credit in the world.

But where do we think Stafford ends up if he stays as healthy as Brees has and plays just as long? Does that change how we think about Brees if he does that or are we prepared to say Stafford is a legend? I'm a fan of Stafford too, but I don't think people are nearly as quick to throw around the term legend with him.

Overall, I'm guessing people in decade from now won't be debating Brady vs Brees. They'll be debating Brady vs Montana and debating Brees vs Stafford. That's the difference. And it's a big difference.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Restore formatting

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.