The Commish
Footballguy
This is the kind of "discussion" you get when everyone knows the right answer and there is really no debate to be had.
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Trump Opponents - Would you rather have a Recession or Trump Re-election? (2 Viewers)
- Thread starter Joe Bryant
- Start date
The Commish
Footballguy
And I am confused again.....in another thread I was assured that recessions were purely cyclical....inevitable in fact. Knowing this, how can they ever be classified as "America failing"?
I don't. Maher started the conversation but I think it's a way to dig into how people feel a bit more. I think we've had a good discussion and wide range of answers.
It also dips into an area I think is interesting about voting your wallet. Bill Clinton was an example. They may not have talked about it openly, but I know lots of business people who might talk conservative but loved Bill Clinton for what he felt he did for the economy.
And this has nothing to with one "side" or another. This exact same question could have been asked eight years ago of Obama opponents: Would you rather have a Recession or an Obama Re-election?
It adds some context to the discussion.
SaintsInDome2006
Footballguy
I kind of think it was asked before when Limbaugh made the comment about his wishing Obama would fail. That was pretty open ended, a president failing could mean a lot of things but ultimately it meant that America would not fare well under his presidency. It depends on what you bake into the presidency. IMO what is baked in with Trump (world order, fundamental American values like free speech & democracy) is potentially a lot worse than what was baked in with Obama (largely social policy).
Thunderlips
Footballguy
I think that if it's just two consecutive quarters of negative economic growth....that would be less damage to the country than Trump being re-elected. If it's something more.....I'd have to think about it. But sign me up for no more Trump and two consecutive quarters of negative economic growth.
Bottomfeeder Sports
Footballguy
We are, I believe in the second longest continuous expansion ever. The longest was the ten years from about nine months after HW broke his "no new taxes" promises until the tech/Y2K bubble burst. We should be cutting deficits and doing what we can to be able to ride out the inevitable downturn that would seem to be in the near future. While there are reasons to think that "this time is different" in some ways such as the expansion being much more flatter than others (slow and steady) which might mean history isn't all that much of a guide, it doesn't seem likely that a recession can be that far off in the future. I would like to think that the slow and steady nature of the expansion would make the recession less jarring, but the tax cuts, trade wars, etc. seem to be setting us up to make this much more painful than it would be.
I don't want to hope for a recession, but I'm pretty sure one is coming and I think that sooner is better than later when it comes to the pain of the recession. And if it comes soon enough to cripple Trump at the midterms and/or prevent his reelection that seems all the better. If not I hope to be wrong about all of this. I hope Trump somehow finds his groove and becomes a president that history will find as a success.
I don't want to hope for a recession, but I'm pretty sure one is coming and I think that sooner is better than later when it comes to the pain of the recession. And if it comes soon enough to cripple Trump at the midterms and/or prevent his reelection that seems all the better. If not I hope to be wrong about all of this. I hope Trump somehow finds his groove and becomes a president that history will find as a success.
knowledge dropper
Footballguy
Bottomfeeder Sports
Footballguy
Yes. It's in the same ball park discussion as hoping for a president to fail. I do remember hearing people talk about Limbaugh talking about that some.
packersfan
Footballguy
I think what Maher meant is important. I'll have to re-watch but my initial response wasn't that he was saying he wanted a recession but just that it may take one to get rid of Trump and he'd be OK with that. I would have to think nearly everyone who opposes Trump wants his removal to be done without further damage done to our country. But if all that failed and you could guarantee me his removal if there was a recession I'd vote yes. Our country hit rock bottom when he was elected so perhaps hitting rock bottom again (or further I suppose) would ultimately be proven justified if it meant he was out.
knowledge dropper
Footballguy
Exactly. And that's why I think a question like this can help paint a picture.
If you had asked a guy yelling about Obama's tan suits if he'd rather have a recession or a guy who wears tan suits, that would have been pretty laughable.
Asking the question with Trump has people giving more serious answers.
Mistaking an analytical disagreement for a moral failing is supposed to be the left’s shtick. Don’t tell me the right is coopting that now as well.
toshiba
Footballguy
knowledge dropper
Footballguy
“I find your posts to be intellectually dishonest at best.”
I won’t, but is this acceptable?
packersfan
Footballguy
Tim's saying he doesn't want people to be hurt which would happen in a recession. And that's fair. But what he can't know is how many would be hurt and what the damage would be and if a Trump removal would ultimately undo that damage.
What we do know now is that people are being hurt at this very minute. Families being torn apart. The poor and middle class being taken advantage of so the rich can prosper. Health care issues. Our long-term allies being attacked while murderous dictators and their policies are aligned. The damage Trump is doing right now is very real. Finding a way to put an end to this damage needs to be our country's top priority in my opinion.
What we do know now is that people are being hurt at this very minute. Families being torn apart. The poor and middle class being taken advantage of so the rich can prosper. Health care issues. Our long-term allies being attacked while murderous dictators and their policies are aligned. The damage Trump is doing right now is very real. Finding a way to put an end to this damage needs to be our country's top priority in my opinion.
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roadkill1292
Footballguy
Joe, you made the choice a difficult one for anti-Trumpers. Nobody wants a recession, even if lesser intellects will make that ridiculous leap in logic if someone would rather face a recession than have another four years of Trump. The nuanced answer is that a recession is due anyway and we've proven ourselves able to not only ride them out but also to generally emerge stronger from them but Donald's inanity and ineptitude will have worse repercussions for the country as a whole.
Obama is going to get blamed for the next recession anyway.
Obama is going to get blamed for the next recession anyway.
packersfan
Footballguy
Also, if there is a recession the blame would fall on Trump since he's the President but this would be of the Republicans' doing. Ryan's been pushing for this disastrous tax plan for years and he finally got it even though many/most economists predicted the damage it would do to our country.
Of course one can. All one has to do is believe that Trump is good for America — which most of his supporters really do believe.
Thanks. I think the polls that are difficult and require some thinking are sometimes the best.
roadkill1292
Footballguy
Would an alternate poll be constructed as "Trump supporters, would you rather have the economy continue to succeed or Trump continue as president?"
toshiba
Footballguy
But all that will be remembered by the less thoughtful among us is that " more than half of liberals want to see Trump fail even if it means America fails". The thought, struggle and nuance will get lost with the less thoughtful among us.
Sabertooth
Footballguy
That one is simple. Let's try harder.
Would you rather a nuclear war, or to have to register all your guns with the government?
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I don’t think many (any?) predicted that it would cause an imminent recession. It should have the opposite effect: it’s a stimulus the way pretty much all deficit-spending is. The damage will be in the longer term, after Keynes pronounces us all dead.
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Fortunately, the board will hopefully be here barring the collapse of the internet or FBG so we'll have the backup to point to.
sho nuff
Footballguy
I think calling someone intellectually dishonest is pretty fair game...given the poll results have been explained multiple times and some still make the you are not pro america and wish for America to fail posts.
Its not name calling whatsoever. What else is there to say about people who continue to take facts...ignore them...then post blatant falsehoods?
Don't Noonan
Footballguy
timschochet
Footballguy
I agree with this. Joe you were right to warn Knowledge Dropper. You were incorrect, IMO, to warn sho nuff. The two are not the same. Treating them as the same is problematic.
Grace Under Pressure
Footballguy
Hi Joe. The broader discourse is what I am referring to, I am not intending to single out the board as they only place these discussions are taking place. This forum is having these discussions, as are other media outlets and social media platforms. The board does a pretty good job of distilling the broader discussions into one place. It's not perfect of course, women make up 50% of the population and probably 2% of the posters here, for example. But it's not just the board though, Joe, to answer your question. These are the common refrains I see being defended on certain issues, and I wonder aloud at the logic of defending false choices.
SaintsInDome2006
Footballguy
Unfortunately the way this works historically is a people are put in the position of choosing 1. promises of digging out of economic desperation - or - 2. keeping their democracy. - Many a time people have chosen the former.
Sabertooth
Footballguy
roadkill1292
Footballguy
That's why I'd like to see the same choice put to them as JB did to us. There would probably be nuanced explanations from them that would help us liberal Never Trumpers understand them better and bridge the divide between the groups.
Ok, I was kidding about that last part.
Ramblin Wreck
Footballguy
knowledge dropper
Footballguy
I don’t follow people around and pretend to police the boards. I also try not to bait posters.
timschochet
Footballguy
I can’t speak to your first statement. Your second statement is blatantly a lie.
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knowledge dropper
Footballguy
Juxtatarot
Footballguy
Let's say we go to a pro-life rally. We poll the members if they would prefer to have a mild recession if it would mean the complete ban on abortions. (Silly unrealistic trade-off but both these situations are silly.)
I would assume the vast majority of those polled would accept the recession. The harm it would cause, in their opinion, would be worth saving the souls of millions of future babies.
This doesn't mean these people hate America or want bad things to happen. Quite the contrary. They believe the trade-off is in the long term best interest of citizens.
Choosing the recession here is the same thing but just from a different political perspective.
Da Guru
Fair & Balanced
Grace Under Pressure
Footballguy
Exactly. The point would then be used against the side being forced to make the false choice. The dynamic I was pointing out above is that these framed discussions have been happening in a very one sided fashion. Basically along the lines of: "here's a false choice, and if you choose the loaded answer, then you're not a patriot".
It happens broadly because of Donald Trump intentionally dividing people to his benefit. He said the NFL kneeling thing was an issue that "elevates him" with his base. Of course it does, because it's a trap. It offers a false choice, and he and his supporters will run with the left being anti-patriotic. It happens here, and it happens not just here.
knowledge dropper
Footballguy
You could go on an on with scenarios, but you do have posters that would prefer a pandemic or a meteor strike to four more years of Trump. Those points of view damage more rational points of view?
Sabertooth
Footballguy
packersfan
Footballguy
At least 4,500.Matthias said:
knowledge dropper
Footballguy
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