Ok. This forum is just like Nazi death camps because they do not allow dissent. Can you admit similarities when they are that absurd. The most important aspect is missing.
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MSNBC jumping the shark?...Ratings indicate yes (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter jon_mx
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sho nuff
Footballguy
Except dissent is allowed. So your point was again inaccurate.
Also the quote you provided...they don’t mention death camps...you added that for effect. They spoke of something being like the Nazis...tactics which this administration has engaged in.
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honky kong
Footballguy
Hey, I don't support Nazi death camps but all those people that complain about them - they need to get ahold of themselves.
squistion
Footballguy
https://twitter.com/amjoyshow/status/1007989358434115585
.@JACOBSOBOROFF (1/2): It’s complete BS to hear the president, the attorney general, Sarah Huckabee Sanders say there’s nothing new about this, there is nothing unusual about this, or it’s the Democrats’ policy.
#AMJoy #immigration #ChildrenInCages
.@JACOBSOBOROFF (2/2): This has never, ever been done before as a systematic policy to take kids away from their parents at the rate of 100%, the goal of the #Trump administration.
.@JACOBSOBOROFF (1/2): It’s complete BS to hear the president, the attorney general, Sarah Huckabee Sanders say there’s nothing new about this, there is nothing unusual about this, or it’s the Democrats’ policy.
#AMJoy #immigration #ChildrenInCages
.@JACOBSOBOROFF (2/2): This has never, ever been done before as a systematic policy to take kids away from their parents at the rate of 100%, the goal of the #Trump administration.
sho nuff
Footballguy
Same here...and the next narrative will be that we all defend MSNBC and think they are a great source while complaining about Fox...such hypocrites and something something.
SaintsInDome2006
Footballguy
Actually on further reflection this is a good point. The Nazis would have crushed this dissent by seizing the poster and then not telling his family where they had taken him. Is there a current day comp for that you can think of?
Insomniac
Footballguy
Would you feel better if the comparison was to the concentration camps the British Empire set up during the Boer War?. Really. Not one person on this forum can see the difference between arresting and detaining people trying to illegally enter into this country and rounding up people and exterminating them because of their race/religion. Not one person is going to admit it is an absurd analogy which specifically mentions showers where Jews were gassed in?
Ghost Rider
Footballguy
Those who beat the drum for this subforum must be incredibly proud of this thread. 
SaintsInDome2006
Footballguy
timschochet
Footballguy
Good morning. jon, I think you are correct in your OP- I was watching Morning Joe when he said that yesterday. I thought to myself, showers? This is really over the top. And yeah, as a general rule rhetoric like this only helps Trump.
But in this instance it doesn’t matter.
We can argue who says what all day long but here’s the main thing: the visual of children being separated from their parents is going to kill the GOP. They know it, too. Trump trying to blame the Democrats, conservatives trying to point out that it started under Obama, you trying to focus on over the top rhetoric (btw, Joe Scarborough is not a member of “the left”)- none of that is going to work. The public is going to blame Republicans for this mess and take it out on them in November, which is why Paul Ryan is trying so desperately to fix it (he won’t.)
The GOP is screwed. And frankly they deserve it. Ugly stuff.
But in this instance it doesn’t matter.
We can argue who says what all day long but here’s the main thing: the visual of children being separated from their parents is going to kill the GOP. They know it, too. Trump trying to blame the Democrats, conservatives trying to point out that it started under Obama, you trying to focus on over the top rhetoric (btw, Joe Scarborough is not a member of “the left”)- none of that is going to work. The public is going to blame Republicans for this mess and take it out on them in November, which is why Paul Ryan is trying so desperately to fix it (he won’t.)
The GOP is screwed. And frankly they deserve it. Ugly stuff.
SaintsInDome2006
Footballguy
I think this was Jon's point. Ok, why? Guy in middle America: you oppose the policy. You think action is illegal (no law commands it, illegal aliens still get due process). But Joe S on a network you don't watch says something you think is an unfair comp, so now Go Trump?
timschochet
Footballguy
It’s closer. But the main crime in that situation is that 30,000 Boer women and children died of starvation and sickness. That’s not going to happen here.
Theres no accurate analogy. The crime is in the separation.
timschochet
Footballguy
I wrote “as a general rule.” I don’t think it’s wise to compare Trump to Hiltler, or compare his policies to the Nazis. First off, it makes no sense: the Nazis are not comparable (that’s what makes them Nazis). I’m not sure that it energizes Trump supporters (they seem energized anyhow) but it turns off a lot of people you’re trying to reach. They hear Hitler or Nazi in regard to Trump and they simply tune you out.
SaintsInDome2006
Footballguy
Ramblin Wreck
Footballguy
Like when you claimed aliases yesterday and refused to back up your false inaccuracy.
timschochet
Footballguy
Even when you find comparisons like this one, it’s still unwise IMO to bring them up in terms of “Trump is a Nazi”.
SaintsInDome2006
Footballguy
I ordinarily agree with you on this stuff. Godwin's Law and all that. But honestly as a factual historical matter draw a line on this to other countries that do / have done this. Admittedly doing it to citizens of other nations is possibly unique - but also problematic - but still the list is... fill in the blanks. It's not pretty, admittedly you do not have to limit it to Nazi Germany. Pinochet's Chile. Peronist Argentina. Stalinist USSR. Modern NK. I am not being unfair here.
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sho nuff
Footballguy
I think it’s important to bring up despicable policy...the comps while over the top, get that point across.
SaintsInDome2006
Footballguy
Because it's upsetting and people who oppose authoritarianism don't like to hear a real life example of authoritarianism. I mean that is your point, right? Maybe it's mine too.
timschochet
Footballguy
Because when people hear Nazi that’s ALL they hear; they think “extreme partisan rhetoric” and tune out the rest.
This policy is ugly. Really ugly; the public doesn’t like it. All you need to do is point at it and say, “hey GOP, WTF?” You don’t need to mention Nazis at all.
joffer
Footballguy
sho nuff
Footballguy
timschochet
Footballguy
Man of Constant Sorrow
Footballguy
I'm not sure this point of Tim's meets the definition of PC.
Here is my reasoning: It is not about being sensitive to anyone's feelings, personal traits or positions, etc.; rather it is about communicating more effectively.
Now, I am still open to both sides on how to address this issue, but I don't think PC is entering the equation at this point.
sho nuff
Footballguy
Not invoking the uncomfortable image of Nazis because epeople don’t like it.
There are similarities and it’s ugly...so we shouldn’t say it.
timschochet
Footballguy
sho nuff
Footballguy
I’d agree but the reason it’s not effective is because of those feelings. Because the tell it like it is crowd doesn’t like to hear it. Not because it isn’t valid...but because it isn't comfortable.
Insomniac
Footballguy
Maybe the WWII internment camps for Japanese-Americans is a better comp.
There is no reason that the administration can't both enforce border security and come up with a solution that does not deliberately separate children from their parents. The purpose of this policy is intentional cruelty. It's evil being done in the name of the people of the US.
Man of Constant Sorrow
Footballguy
I think I see your point now sho.
So, you are pointing out a potential hypocrisy (whether conscious or unconscious), but are not necessarily advocating for being non-PC.
Am I wrong?
SaintsInDome2006
Footballguy
I get the argument that the nazi comp is so overused in the past and present that using it starts out sounding like a false emotional argument.
But we have a WH which is denying it while at the same time his AG is running around celebrating it and citing the Bible in doing so.
I think we have a real challenge here - instead of old school spin or modern PC morality police overreaching we just have a president who outright invents facts and claims about a policy in order to provide cover for those who don't like it and maybe even coopt them because the people they normally disagree with are so 'overreacting' (see Jon - he says he doesn't like the policy, says he sees it's illegal, but hey Msnbc). This is actually forcing free speech and American values to immolate themselves.
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sho nuff
Footballguy
No...pc was probably the wrong thing to use as a bit of a punch line. You’ve got it...
sho nuff
Footballguy
And Trumps quit s are also why we see the comps...just flat out lies and attempts at controlling the media.
...sorry I am not part of the Trump hate fest. Let's just dismiss all fair criticism. Just belittle people. Really classless #### in this forum.
Koya
Footballguy
There's the rub.
And calling into question the veracity of a posters repeated mistruths and misrepresentations, including providing detail and specifics, is not belittling people. If you wish to be so loose with the truth, at least have thick enough skin to accept being called out on it.
Good to see the high brow rolling smilie is back, tho.
I don't disagree. This is a distaster for the GOP, but the Trump-haters are doing their best to overplay it.
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honky kong
Footballguy
at you getting to determine whether your criticism is fair or not.Where was I being lose with the truth? I have provided more details and specifics than anyone in this thread.
Koya
Footballguy
I've not read through this thread because I believe, as noted, the entire premise is not an objective approach. While I stated that, my intent was not to go point by point as I've come to the conclusion that's a futile endeavor when dealing with folks that, imo, play loose with the truth (just going on the years of history here for that assessment)
If you read my heartfelt plea to you in the other thread (don't recall which right now), that should explain it further. It was probably the first time I've bothered re-engaging with you for some time due to my thoughts on the matter, and assuming no change in approach, we can just let it sit for a while again.
Unlike some folks here who flat out troll, or just dont come off as people with any intent to be constructive and in fact seem to want for being a disruptive and negative contributor, I don't believe that is the case with you. So every so often it's worth tossing out a line, checking the temp.
Unfortunately, I've not personally seen a willingness to be more honest, up front, fair nor objective, hence no need to continually engage without getting frustrated and perhaps being more a drain on the conversation, myself.
Officer Pete Malloy
Footballguy
Cowboysfan8
Footballguy
Trump likes to defend Russia's transgressions by pointing out that America has also done horrible things.
O’Reilly: "He’s a killer though. Putin’s a killer."
Trump: "We have a lot of killers, got a lot of killers. What, you think our country is so innocent?"
Putting on my Louise Mensch hat, I might speculate that Trump is trying to do horrible things on purpose, possibly flouting international law by committing human rights violations, in order to strengthen his defense of Putin. "Sure, Russia is persecuting journalists and occupying Crimea, but are we so innocent? We're separating children from migrant families!!"
O’Reilly: "He’s a killer though. Putin’s a killer."
Trump: "We have a lot of killers, got a lot of killers. What, you think our country is so innocent?"
Putting on my Louise Mensch hat, I might speculate that Trump is trying to do horrible things on purpose, possibly flouting international law by committing human rights violations, in order to strengthen his defense of Putin. "Sure, Russia is persecuting journalists and occupying Crimea, but are we so innocent? We're separating children from migrant families!!"
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Grace Under Pressure
Footballguy
The original post is what turns this place into a sewer.
No response other than to point that out.
So your point was to personally belittle my opinion and make statements about my character in a thead you had not bothered to read.
Officer Pete Malloy
Footballguy
Cowboysfan8 is right as well, though. Mischaracterizing someone's views as the exact opposite of what they've actually said isn't very helpful.
It may be a similar tactic, but Trump is not trying to use this in any way on the Russian front. This is all about immigration policy. He is using policy he can (or at least attempt to) politically hang on Democrats to aid his tough immigration stance. Having kind of a catch and release program does not make sense if you really want to control immigration and this whole child separation issue has gotten very convoluted. All this gives Trump a bit of coverage to be a #####. But this still is not gas chamber level stuff.
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