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BoltBacker

Fantasy Football: Evolving or Devolving?

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On 6/29/2018 at 9:33 AM, Ack88 said:

What would be really interesting is if an enterprising researcher could look at a scoring system that comes as close as possible to valuing all position equally. Presumably, this would entail looking at several years of data. For example, one might find that over a 20 year period a reception should be worth .43 points for WRs and .78 for TE in order to have the same value as a RB. TD passes might need to be worth 5.35 points as well.

Admittedly, this is equal parts dorky and time consuming, and I'm sure somewhere along the way, a stats geek like myself has undertaken this task.

To me, a league like this would be evolutionary because it would diminish the mentality of things like "Only draft a QB after round 10", and zero rb and zero wr strategies.

If anyone has access to something like this, I'd love to see it. Thanks.

I joined a league last year that works somewhat like this. The commish tweaks the scoring system every 3 years based on player data over that time and players don't get any points for catches or yards until they hit a minimum threshold.

 

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For those in leagues where they try to level out the scoring for all positions, are you also going to 2 QB and 2 TE? Otherwise, I don't see how leveling the scoring has a big impact on those positions. 

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We made a pretty massive switch last year in the league I commish.  I always wanted to incorporate the "all play" aspect somehow to where you play every team every week.  Because like @Dr. Danmentioned....it kind of sucks to lose with the second most points scored in a week just because you happened to be playing the top scoring team.  But we also wanted to keep the weekly matchups/rivalry game things....So what we did was a hybrid...each week you still have your "solo" matchup, but you are also playing against everybody else behind the scenes, so to speak..

12 team league

3 divisions

all 3 division winners make the playoffs

and then the next 3 teams with the best "ALL PLAY" records get the last three playoff spots...

seeding 1-6 is based off of your "ALL PLAY" record

this was huge for us and was really loved by our league because it really rewarded the guys who would have had really good seasons if they played everybody every week....it helped the guys who had good weeks but lost to the one or two guys who had better weeks...but it also still included the division aspect....

so you may have only had a 7-6 division record and may have missed the playoffs normally under the old sysytem.....but your "ALL PLAY" record was 3rd best in the league...say (100-43)so you got in....

Edited by Stinkin Ref
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On ‎6‎/‎29‎/‎2018 at 9:01 AM, Ilov80s said:

I think PPR is kind outdated as well. People began using is it in the era of the workhorse RB to balance things between RB and WR a bit. Drafts back then used to be all RBs until the mid 2nd round. So ppr made it more interesting by increasing the value of WRs. Flash forward now and it’s a pass first league that loves to throw to the RB. So ppr is actually making the top RBs even more valuable since they are catching more passes the we saw 10 years ago, 

We went to .5 for RB receptions last season.

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6 minutes ago, Da Guru said:

We went to .5 for RB receptions last season.

I think this is the way to go. We had seven RB's score over the first WR. So, Melvin Gordon over Julio and Antonio Brown is kind of odd.

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On 6/29/2018 at 4:30 PM, BoltBacker said:

Why points for first down hasn't been more embraced is one of the biggest mysteries in fantasy football as far as I am concerned.

Right up there with people still using straight "snake drafts". I have yet to hear a single rational reason why people are still doing that instead of some flavor of 3rd-round-reversal.

I feel like people are just getting so stuck in their ways playing FF they won't even try anything new. I get the whole, "There's a scoring system for everyone" argument but why on earth would you reward players for getting yards but not reward them more for getting first downs?! Why WOULDN'T you use a draft that is statistically(and logically) just more fair?

BTW, before someone says it I completely agree that auction is a better solution but I understand the people that only feel comfortable drafting more than I understand the people that only feel comfortable with a snake draft because that's the way Lewis and Clark played fantasy football by god.

I fully agree about PPFD and I was with you on the second point until you said 3rd-round-reversal. I thought you were going to say auction. Then you covered your tracks with your "btw".

If it was up to me, I'd never play in another PPR league or snake draft league. Luckily auction has come around enough that there are plenty of options out there, but PPR is unavoidable these days. I feel like it is only a matter of time until it is phased out for the much more logical PPFD. But how long is anyone's guess.

While we're ranting, I'd like to complain about positional premiums. I'm sorry, but they are stupid. Stop trying to inflate the value of certain positions. When a TE catches a pass it isn't somehow 50% more valuable than when any other position does it. I get that TEs don't catch as many passes... so just draft them later. It's not going to hurt their feelings.

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so how does PPFD work...

if Gurley runs for 9.5 yards on first down and then Goff QB sneaks for 0.5 resulting in a first down....how is that scored...

and what if Goff passes to Higbee for that 0.5 yard and first down..

Edited by Stinkin Ref

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80% of the things I complain about in fantasy football are either things that didn't break my way or me just being salty about having to work harder...

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In order to try to make fantasy football more popular, skill was removed.  For example, the values of passing yards and passing TDs were lowered so that theres really so significant difference between QBs and its better to just draft them late.  Workhorse RBs are harder to predict and most teams dont play ball control anymore so taking an RB first isnt the guarantee of success it once was.  More people take WRs early but their TDs can be very random from year to year.  So most skill is now removed and its based on luck in order to try to keep the marginally interested people playing 

If you wanted to add skill then a place to start is to make passing TDs 6 points and interceptions worth -6.  If you backtest those rules then there is a very clear delineation between elite QBs and so-so QBs.   The draft would be more interesting too because going RB early, WR early, and QB early would all be viable.   But usually when i make this suggestion, people say its too much and lets make ints -3  and tds 5 and pretty soon were back to where we are with skillless leagues.

 

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Love this kind of talk.

I think the thing I see the most of though is find rules that you like. If you love points for first down, rock on. If you love a basic scoring with no PPR, you do you. Main thing is get one you enjoy. This game is meant to be fun. Find one that's fun for you. 

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On ‎6‎/‎29‎/‎2018 at 6:33 AM, Ack88 said:

What would be really interesting is if an enterprising researcher could look at a scoring system that comes as close as possible to valuing all position equally. Presumably, this would entail looking at several years of data. For example, one might find that over a 20 year period a reception should be worth .43 points for WRs and .78 for TE in order to have the same value as a RB. TD passes might need to be worth 5.35 points as well.

Admittedly, this is equal parts dorky and time consuming, and I'm sure somewhere along the way, a stats geek like myself has undertaken this task.

To me, a league like this would be evolutionary because it would diminish the mentality of things like "Only draft a QB after round 10", and zero rb and zero wr strategies.

If anyone has access to something like this, I'd love to see it. Thanks.

We have tried to do this however the bigger problem is that each year can vastly skew things due to league tendencies that make it hard to keep it stable.  We tried to create a league (IDP) that would put each position equal with regards to tiers.  So a top tier RB=QB=WR=DL=DB=K=etc.   It is a never ending battle.  We were able to get close but in some positions it made yearly scores similar but wildly inconsistent from game to game (you might get a DE score 20pts one game and 0 for the next three).  So when looking at the overall score for the year the DL was similar to the QB but really they weren't equal in value because QB's were consistent scorers where DL was not. 

 

So you have to do two things.  Make end of year scoring similar while also increasing consistency.  It is very difficult. 

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On ‎6‎/‎29‎/‎2018 at 10:25 AM, Spike said:

The “problem” I have with this is that all positions should not be valued equally. 

For this moment in time, QBs are much most important than, say, RBs and should be that way in FF accordingly. 

I do agree that there is evolution but how to do this in dynasty leagues?  If you build your team a certain way, you would be less likely to want to change your league scoring rules because of it. 

Why shouldn't they be valued equally?  This is a fake game that we are forever tweaking.  I want to have all positions equal for FF purposes because it allows every owner to build their team the way they want to.  It leads to more creativity and you don't get stuck with everyone doing the same thing.  You also reward those that do their own research a little more because you can't just go get a standard cheat sheet to complete. 

 

Neither way is right or wrong.  They are just options to help keep things fresh.  Try out stuff and see what you like.  I think that's the point of the discussion.

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I'm also a believer in there are rarely good or bad scoring systems. There is YOUR scoring system. And adapting projected stats to your scoring is the key to success. 

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39 minutes ago, Joe Bryant said:

I'm also a believer in there are rarely good or bad scoring systems. There is YOUR scoring system. And adapting projected stats to your scoring is the key to success. 

Those who want their FF to simulate the feel of a real football game aren't going to be aiming to balance things, and are going to be just fine with one position dominating the value early in the draft.

Those who prefer to see FF as a game of its own, independent of the on-field game it is utilizing as a "game engine" are going to enjoy unusual rules sets that require analysis different from the groupthink standards.  Which is probably why so many of the hardcore folks on this board in the offseason are pushing distinct scoring systems.  The "game" of FF in many cases is finding the gaps in the "zone defense" of your league's scoring system and exploiting them for advantage.

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2 hours ago, Arodin said:

Those who want their FF to simulate the feel of a real football game aren't going to be aiming to balance things, and are going to be just fine with one position dominating the value early in the draft.

 

I have never seen a league yet that does that- to play just one QB and still have a league that captures the real life value of the QB? Never seen it. Have you?

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8 minutes ago, Ilov80s said:

I have never seen a league yet that does that- to play just one QB and still have a league that captures the real life value of the QB? Never seen it. Have you?

I have actually.  Typically by awarding points for completions minus penalties for incompletions, and by having substantial penalties for interceptions.

Can't remember the exact specifics, but something like "1 pt per completion, -1 point per incompletion, 6 pts per TD, -4 pts per INT" really made a significant spread of value from QB1 to QB12, to the point that having an elite QB was a potential league-winner. 

It's something, in retrospect, I'd only want to do again in an auction format, but it definitely captured the sense that a franchise QB was one of the most important pieces your fantasy team could have.

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3 hours ago, Joe Bryant said:

I'm also a believer in there are rarely good or bad scoring systems. There is YOUR scoring system. And adapting projected stats to your scoring is the key to success. 

I do believe there are good and bad systems.  Bad systems de-emphasize skill in favor of luck.  This is done to try to keep the casual from quitting.  In reality, the casual was always going to quit and by taking away the skill component you actually start driving away the hardcore players too.  As a result, you might get a temporary boom in the industry from the change at best but then you get a permanent bust as people who want a skill game look elsewhere.  

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I don't agree that removing luck from the game needs to be the major goal of scoring design. I've played since 1985 in one league and since the early 90's in another. Both have pretty stodgy rules but very talented players who don't like change. Both draft live and the owners know each other, although mostly only from their years in these leagues. I don't think a new owner has joined either league in 6 or 8 years. I also play in a super-flex league, a 32 team double player league, a pretty straight forward ppr (.5 ppr for RBs) with 11 talented people who I have never met and never will, as well as two more for fun local leagues among social friends. All of them have rules with complexity well-suited to the competition. The main thing to me is the competition and winnowing out the players who don't try or can't compete. If everyone plays hard and plays well, they can all be good. If one of my local games were extremely skill focussed, only maybe 2-3 of us would have a chance. If the rules allow for lots of luck, that's good for those games because everyone has a chance and can stay in the competition until later in the season. In more advanced leagues,more complex rules and emphasis on skill is appropriate. I still don't want the same super-focussed stat nerd winning a league every year. Letting luck play a significant role sometimes just aids - to me - the fun of trying to be good enough to overcome that, as well as whatever the rules allows you to control. 

I also like playing with lots of differing rules as players have distinctly different values in different systems, which makes keeping track and adjusting between leagues a challenge. To each their own.

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On ‎6‎/‎29‎/‎2018 at 1:25 PM, Spike said:

The “problem” I have with this is that all positions should not be valued equally. 

For this moment in time, QBs are much most important than, say, RBs and should be that way in FF accordingly. 

I do agree that there is evolution but how to do this in dynasty leagues?  If you build your team a certain way, you would be less likely to want to change your league scoring rules because of it. 

For our league, it was yes and no.  We tried to build our scoring based on a positions importance to their team.  So, like you pointed out, QB is the most important position on the field and they score the most points.  Offensive lines, defensive lines and special teams are the next most important pieces, so they score the next highest.  From there, all other positions (RB, WR, TE, LB and DB) score mostly equally.  So, it looks something like this:

QBs- The top five average 100-110 pts/game and the top 32 total QB's average about 80-85 pts/game
OL/TMDL/ST- The top five average 75-80 pts/game and the top 32 total average about 60-65 pts/game
RB/WR/TE/LB/DB- The top five average 50-60 pts/game and the top 32 total average about 35-40 pts/game

This allows owners to build their teams in so many different ways and gets far away from predictable drafts.  Our drafts are not predominately RB driven.  In fact, the first round is usually pretty evenly split between QB, RB, WR and LB.  Top OL's and TMDL's go early as well.

As far as PPR goes, we do use it.  My thoughts are that it's a measure of a player's importance to the team.  A reception is simply an extended hand-off...the way the team get's the ball in your hands.  Player's that have high reception numbers are generally ones that the team relies on to make plays.  Of course, we do balance it by scoring "rushes" as well and then making receptions have slightly different point values for RB,WR and TE.  But at the end of the day, the combined points scored for receptions and rushes (ball-in-hand measures) is 25% of their total score.

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10 hours ago, Ilov80s said:

I have never seen a league yet that does that- to play just one QB and still have a league that captures the real life value of the QB? Never seen it. Have you?

 

If that is the driving criteria for your league, it could be easily done using QBR of even ypa if you want it simpler, and using thresholds for levels of performance.

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One thing I've never agreed with is the thought that PPR increases the value of WR.  It may increase slightly but what really changes the value of players is the starting lineup.  In a 12 team league, QB just aren't going to have value if you start 1 of them because the supply is large.  But if you change to a SuperFlex or especially a two QB league they are going to have tremendous amounts of value.  Same for TE though the elite TE still have more value than a QB in a normal start one TE league.

The way to increase the value of a WR was always make sure you had to start 3 and only have to start 1 RB.  Anytime you have to start a second RB the RB are going to have the most value regardless of the scoring system.

That said, I agree with those that any scoring system is fine.  Just find the one you like and prefer and play with those rules.

Oh, and something else to consider for those that are seeking balanced scoring is to use points per touch (PPR + PPC) so the receiving backs don't make the non-receiving backs useless and the full PPR on a RB doesn't go crazy compared to a full PPR on a WR.  

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22 hours ago, Stinkin Ref said:

so how does PPFD work...

if Gurley runs for 9.5 yards on first down and then Goff QB sneaks for 0.5 resulting in a first down....how is that scored...

and what if Goff passes to Higbee for that 0.5 yard and first down..

Yes. It's far from a perfect way to score. I do like it but I don't think it's the greatest thing ever. 

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11 hours ago, Ilov80s said:

I have never seen a league yet that does that- to play just one QB and still have a league that captures the real life value of the QB? Never seen it. Have you?

We have it.  We score the following statistics:

Touchdowns
First Downs
Point Differential (Does your team win, lose or tie...every player has ownership in it)

Total Yards (Rushing and Passing)
Interceptions thrown

QBR
Completion %

The first group of stats are considered "team stats" as is they directly measure the impact on their NFL team.  These make up 50% of that player's score.
The second group of stats are considered "personal stats" as they measure the QB individually and they make up 29% of that player's score.
The last group of stats are considered "soft measures" and make up 21% of the player's score.

QB's pretty much score double what the other positions score.

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18 minutes ago, Jedi Knight said:

 

QB's pretty much score double what the other positions score.

 

That’s not what creates value.  Value is the differential between an individual player’s score vs the baseline for that position, and then that difference compared between positions.  It’s not how much they score, but rather how much more they score than your opponent’s player at the same position.

 

That said, including QBR and completion % in the scoring is a great way to help create that difference between top QBs and the baseline guys.

Edited by Bronco Billy
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On 6/29/2018 at 4:30 PM, BoltBacker said:

Why points for first down hasn't been more embraced is one of the biggest mysteries in fantasy football as far as I am concerned.

Right up there with people still using straight "snake drafts". I have yet to hear a single rational reason why people are still doing that instead of some flavor of 3rd-round-reversal.

I feel like people are just getting so stuck in their ways playing FF they won't even try anything new. I get the whole, "There's a scoring system for everyone" argument but why on earth would you reward players for getting yards but not reward them more for getting first downs?! Why WOULDN'T you use a draft that is statistically(and logically) just more fair?

BTW, before someone says it I completely agree that auction is a better solution but I understand the people that only feel comfortable drafting more than I understand the people that only feel comfortable with a snake draft because that's the way Lewis and Clark played fantasy football by god.

 

It isn’t my intention to be adversarial, but rather to understand your line of logic.  Why would a 3 yd catch on 3rd & 2 be more valuable than the 9 yd catch on 2nd and 11 that set it up?  The latter play is meaningless without the former play that set it up.  One of the beauties of football, along with the importance of team play, is the amalgam of plays that go into a sustained drive.  IMO of course.

 

The 80 yd TD is highlight reel stuff that is TV sexy, but give me the 16 play 80 yd TD drive with the relentless grinding and imposition of will.  That is back breaking to an opponents D and is nothing short of spectacular from my POV.

 

.

Edited by Bronco Billy

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24 minutes ago, Bronco Billy said:

 

It isn’t my intention to be adversarial, but rather to understand your line of logic.  Why would a 3 yd catch on 3rd & 2 be more valuable than the 9 yd catch on 2nd and 11 that set it up?  The latter play is meaningless without the former play that set it up.  One of the beauties of football, along with the importance of team play, is the amalgam of plays that go into a sustained drive.  IMO of course..

There is a sense among football fans, justified or not, that yards are harder to come by in tight situations.  On 2nd and 11 the offense has lots of options and space to operate, and a 9 yard catch might actually be considered a success by the defense in forcing a third down.  Still worth nine yards in fantasy, but nothing more.

The 3 yard catch that follows though, is worth three yards AND another three downs of offense.  Think of the PPFD as rewarding the player for getting his offense those three new downs.

It isn’t perfect, but I thnk it is no more imperfect than the systems we have already that reward the 1-yard run into the endzone more than the 50-yard reception that set it up.  If you want to look for a universal way of “valuing” each play, maybe give fantasy points based on how the play shifted the team’s win %?

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17 hours ago, Gally said:

Why shouldn't they be valued equally?  This is a fake game that we are forever tweaking.  I want to have all positions equal for FF purposes because it allows every owner to build their team the way they want to.  It leads to more creativity and you don't get stuck with everyone doing the same thing.  You also reward those that do their own research a little more because you can't just go get a standard cheat sheet to complete. 

The problem is that players aren't valued by the points they score, they're valued by the relative scarcity at their position of points scored over the baseline. That's why kickers aren't valuable despite scoring lots of points, and changing the scoring so kickers score more won't make them substantially more valuable. In my league last year, 43 of the top 50 scoring players were QB, K, or D, but that didn't make those positions valuable.

If you really want the positions to be equally valuable, you have to level the scoring, and then get rid of positional requirements in the starting lineup. If you want to start 8 kickers, go ahead. Call it StupidFlex.

Edited by CalBear
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8 hours ago, Joe Bryant said:

Yes. It's far from a perfect way to score. I do like it but I don't think it's the greatest thing ever. 

 I”m assuming from your response it means what I thought in basically that Gurley did most of the heavy lifting but he walks away with less points than Goff in the first situation and possibly Goff and Higbee in the second because his part of getting that first down didn’t actually result in the “first down”....?

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13 minutes ago, Stinkin Ref said:

 I”m assuming from your response it means what I thought in basically that Gurley did most of the heavy lifting but he walks away with less points than Goff in the first situation and possibly Goff and Higbee in the second because his part of getting that first down didn’t actually result in the “first down”....?

Yes. That's what I meant. 

First downs is a nice additional way to score. But it has its issues. Like the one you noted. 

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7 hours ago, CalBear said:

The problem is that players aren't valued by the points they score, they're valued by the relative scarcity at their position of points scored over the baseline. That's why kickers aren't valuable despite scoring lots of points, and changing the scoring so kickers score more won't make them substantially more valuable. In my league last year, 43 of the top 50 scoring players were QB, K, or D, but that didn't make those positions valuable.

If you really want the positions to be equally valuable, you have to level the scoring, and then get rid of positional requirements in the starting lineup. If you want to start 8 kickers, go ahead. Call it StupidFlex.

I agree that scarcity plays a roll but if the point levels are not equivalent it makes it an even bigger gap for relative positional values.

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It's waning, for a number of reasons.  I can't prove as much but I'm pretty sure it's seen its peak.  Legalized gambling and dfs are obviously not helping.  When you can grab your phone and make bets in-game no problem, on players no less, that is not good for FF.  Dynasty is really going to really fall by the wayside imo.  

 

I'm indifferent now, never thought that would happen.  Didn't even play last year and am as excited to jump back in as having diarrhea after way too much hot sauce.

Is FBG's thinking about selling?  They should've cashed out two years ago.  Or did they to an extent?  They partnered up with Draft Kings, was it?  Just curious and I could be wrong of course but the rage is long gone already.

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On 7/3/2018 at 11:18 AM, Stinkin Ref said:

so how does PPFD work...

if Gurley runs for 9.5 yards on first down and then Goff QB sneaks for 0.5 resulting in a first down....how is that scored...

and what if Goff passes to Higbee for that 0.5 yard and first down..

I think you know how that is scored. Gurley gets 0.9 points and Goff get 1.1 points or Higbee get 1.1 points in your second scenario. Sure, it seems a little unfair, but 3rd and 1 is a tough yard to get (I think we both know he's not running a QB sneak on 2nd and 1). Also, it is far much more likely that Gurley rushed twice for 4.5 yards each than a single 9 yard run. That's not bad, but I don't think two 4.5 yard runs really deserves an extra point.

But your stated scenario is much more rare than a 3rd down back catching a meaningless dump off for 7 yards on 3rd and 10 and getting 1.7 points. 

Goff had two rushing first downs last year. Duke caught 74 passes last year. Only 34 went for 1st downs. Meanwhile, Gurley had 69 rushing first downs and 31 receiving first downs. In the long run, PPFD rewards the players that are picking up the tough yards and moving the chains. However, PPR is blind. All receptions are worth the same. If a guy catches a pass and gets tackled for a loss, he gets more points than the player that wisely intentionally bats the ball down to save yards and clock. If a guy catches a 7 yard pass on 3rd and 15, that's worth the same as catching a 7 yard pass on 3rd and 5. But we all know the defense was willing to give away the yard catch on 3rd and 15 uncontested, while the 7 yard pass on 3rd and 5 was likely highly contested. These should have different values!

Landry is a player whose value I feel is inflated by PPR. In the past 4 years the guy has 401 receptions. Only 221 have been for first downs. Mike Evans only has 309 receptions, but 245 of them have been first downs. Evans has 959.4 points to Landry's 937.1 - barely 5 points per season more, despite having 10 more TDs than Landry, over 500 more yards, and 24 more first downs. That's crazy. Change it to PPFD and we're looking at 895.4 to 757.1. Seems much more reasonable, IMO.

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6 hours ago, Rodrigo Duterte said:

I just remembered all the debate on here long ago about how FF wasn't about gambling.  LMFAO.

It's definitely not for most of us, I believe. 

One, it's for a tiny amount of money in the scheme of things.
Two, season long fantasy football is an excruciatingly long play in terms of gambling's normal instantaneous gratification mode of operation.
Three, I don't even enjoy gambling and I think many people who don't enjoy gambling do enjoy FF... and many people who enjoy gambling are not drawn to FF.

While there is a small aspect of gambling to fantasy football, for most of us, the use of money is first and foremost to guarantee people don't quit or do stupid crap that people do in free leagues. In my experience, the people most prone to doing stupid, petty crap are the people who the money means the most to.

My portfolio routinely fluctuates over $10k per day just due to normal market volatility. I don't give a **** about a fraction of some $1200-$3000 pot from a 16 week long game.

P.S. yes, I know investing is sometimes seen as a form of gambling, but a lot more goes into it than just random chance like normal gambling.

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22 hours ago, FF Ninja said:

I think you know how that is scored. Gurley gets 0.9 points and Goff get 1.1 points or Higbee get 1.1 points in your second scenario. Sure, it seems a little unfair, but 3rd and 1 is a tough yard to get (I think we both know he's not running a QB sneak on 2nd and 1). Also, it is far much more likely that Gurley rushed twice for 4.5 yards each than a single 9 yard run. That's not bad, but I don't think two 4.5 yard runs really deserves an extra point.

But your stated scenario is much more rare than a 3rd down back catching a meaningless dump off for 7 yards on 3rd and 10 and getting 1.7 points. 

Goff had two rushing first downs last year. Duke caught 74 passes last year. Only 34 went for 1st downs. Meanwhile, Gurley had 69 rushing first downs and 31 receiving first downs. In the long run, PPFD rewards the players that are picking up the tough yards and moving the chains. However, PPR is blind. All receptions are worth the same. If a guy catches a pass and gets tackled for a loss, he gets more points than the player that wisely intentionally bats the ball down to save yards and clock. If a guy catches a 7 yard pass on 3rd and 15, that's worth the same as catching a 7 yard pass on 3rd and 5. But we all know the defense was willing to give away the yard catch on 3rd and 15 uncontested, while the 7 yard pass on 3rd and 5 was likely highly contested. These should have different values!

Landry is a player whose value I feel is inflated by PPR. In the past 4 years the guy has 401 receptions. Only 221 have been for first downs. Mike Evans only has 309 receptions, but 245 of them have been first downs. Evans has 959.4 points to Landry's 937.1 - barely 5 points per season more, despite having 10 more TDs than Landry, over 500 more yards, and 24 more first downs. That's crazy. Change it to PPFD and we're looking at 895.4 to 757.1. Seems much more reasonable, IMO.

I think the biggest "problem" is that people such as yourself want fantasy football scoring to match actual football scoring in terms of scarcity, skill required, and talent level.

But that's not the game we play most of the time.  From the get go, the entire point has been to accumulate stats, and these generally don't correlate to NFL wins and losses.

It's interesting that I haven't heard the argument that Kirk Cousins shouldn't have scored more points than Ben Roethlisburger because the Redskins lost more games.

 

Embrace this game for what it is, talk to your leaguemates or find a new league that has scoring that you agree with, but it's silly to sit back and ##### about various problems with the game that you disagree with.

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7 minutes ago, tangfoot said:

I think the biggest "problem" is that people such as yourself want fantasy football scoring to match actual football scoring in terms of scarcity, skill required, and talent level.

But that's not the game we play most of the time.  From the get go, the entire point has been to accumulate stats, and these generally don't correlate to NFL wins and losses.

It's interesting that I haven't heard the argument that Kirk Cousins shouldn't have scored more points than Ben Roethlisburger because the Redskins lost more games.

Embrace this game for what it is, talk to your leaguemates or find a new league that has scoring that you agree with, but it's silly to sit back and ##### about various problems with the game that you disagree with.

Similarly, I think it is stupid to not question the status quo. Players are accumulating receptions and first downs. Why should we blindly keep tallying points for the receptions and not the first downs? Just as in life and business, it's always good to take a step back and think about how and why you are doing things. If the best answer you can come up with is "because it's the way we've always done it" then there's a solid chance you've got an opportunity to improve. So you can sit back lethargically and criticize people who are looking to improve or you can brainstorm ways to improve going forward. Your choice.

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55 minutes ago, FF Ninja said:

Similarly, I think it is stupid to not question the status quo. Players are accumulating receptions and first downs. Why should we blindly keep tallying points for the receptions and not the first downs? Just as in life and business, it's always good to take a step back and think about how and why you are doing things. If the best answer you can come up with is "because it's the way we've always done it" then there's a solid chance you've got an opportunity to improve. So you can sit back lethargically and criticize people who are looking to improve or you can brainstorm ways to improve going forward. Your choice.

It's obvious that people fear change.  I can't get my ####### leaguemates to axe kickers from the league.

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10 hours ago, tangfoot said:

It's obvious that people fear change.  I can't get my ####### leaguemates to axe kickers from the league.

Try going to opposite direction and suggest you start 2 of them every week...

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12 hours ago, FF Ninja said:

Similarly, I think it is stupid to not question the status quo. Players are accumulating receptions and first downs. Why should we blindly keep tallying points for the receptions and not the first downs? Just as in life and business, it's always good to take a step back and think about how and why you are doing things. If the best answer you can come up with is "because it's the way we've always done it" then there's a solid chance you've got an opportunity to improve. So you can sit back lethargically and criticize people who are looking to improve or you can brainstorm ways to improve going forward. Your choice.

You're pretty quick to drop things down to the insult level, no?  Your post would be better received (maybe) if you stopped typing a little earlier.

 

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On ‎7‎/‎3‎/‎2018 at 7:10 PM, Gally said:

Why shouldn't they be valued equally?  This is a fake game that we are forever tweaking.  I want to have all positions equal for FF purposes because it allows every owner to build their team the way they want to.  It leads to more creativity and you don't get stuck with everyone doing the same thing.  You also reward those that do their own research a little more because you can't just go get a standard cheat sheet to complete. 

 

Neither way is right or wrong.  They are just options to help keep things fresh.  Try out stuff and see what you like.  I think that's the point of the discussion.

Let's say you've been in a non-PPR dynasty league for 6 years.  It's standard scoring with starting lineups of 1QB/1RB/3WR/1TE/2 FLEX.  You've painstakingly built the team the way you like it. 

You have 1 top-flight QB and a promising rookie.  You feel you don't need more than that due to the scoring rules.

You have 1 top-flight RB and a couple promising backups.  You feel you don't need more than that due to the scoring rules.

You have stacked your team at WR with guys you feel are TD-heavy.

You have crap at TE just due to the luck of the draw.

Now, in year 7, your league goes PPR, 2QB/2RB/2WR/2TE/1 FLEX.  The league voted, this offseason, to go that route saying, "Why shouldn't they (the positions) be valued equally?"

Aren't you unhappy that your team cannot just change on the fly and that it'll take time (seasons, most likely) to change over?

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18 minutes ago, Spike said:

Let's say you've been in a non-PPR dynasty league for 6 years.  It's standard scoring with starting lineups of 1QB/1RB/3WR/1TE/2 FLEX.  You've painstakingly built the team the way you like it. 

You have 1 top-flight QB and a promising rookie.  You feel you don't need more than that due to the scoring rules.

You have 1 top-flight RB and a couple promising backups.  You feel you don't need more than that due to the scoring rules.

You have stacked your team at WR with guys you feel are TD-heavy.

You have crap at TE just due to the luck of the draw.

Now, in year 7, your league goes PPR, 2QB/2RB/2WR/2TE/1 FLEX.  The league voted, this offseason, to go that route saying, "Why shouldn't they (the positions) be valued equally?"

Aren't you unhappy that your team cannot just change on the fly and that it'll take time (seasons, most likely) to change over?

If this kind of drastic scoring and line up change was going to happen in one of my dynasty leagues I’d want to draft all over again. Maybe play out current setup over next 2 seasons then throw all the players back in the pool and have a new startup draft. 

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3 hours ago, Spike said:

 

Now, in year 7, your league goes PPR, 2QB/2RB/2WR/2TE/1 FLEX.  The league voted, this offseason, to go that route saying, "Why shouldn't they (the positions) be valued equally?"

Aren't you unhappy that your team cannot just change on the fly and that it'll take time (seasons, most likely) to change over?

That is not exactly what I was referring to.  I was not alluding to changing starting lineup requirements.  I was alluding to altering the scoring to make each position similar in scoring so that they are similar in value.

 

You are talking about changing the entire basis of your league.  That is apples to oranges.

 

And as stated above I also wouldn't have a problem making the change as you described and having a refrsh and start over.

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22 minutes ago, Gally said:

make each position similar in scoring so that they are similar in value

That's not how it works though.  

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1 minute ago, Ignoratio Elenchi said:

That's not how it works though.  

I know there are other factors and many of which are complicated.  There is no way to make all positions completely equal but making similar tiered players at each position score the same amount of points (or as close as possible) is a step in the right direction.

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4 minutes ago, Gally said:

I know there are other factors and many of which are complicated.  There is no way to make all positions completely equal but making similar tiered players at each position score the same amount of points (or as close as possible) is a step in the right direction.

It could very easily be a step in the wrong direction, because you don't really have any control over how many players are in each tier at each position.  It sounds like what you want is basically that at any point in a hypothetical draft, it's equally viable to draft a QB or a RB or a WR or a K or whatever.  You're not going to create that situation by changing the scoring. 

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On 7/3/2018 at 4:37 PM, Ilov80s said:

For those in leagues where they try to level out the scoring for all positions, are you also going to 2 QB and 2 TE? Otherwise, I don't see how leveling the scoring has a big impact on those positions. 

I think at least having the ability to flex up to 2 QB and flex up to 3 TE is a big step. But I also think if you are starting fewer than 11 players you are leaving way too much up to luck on a weekly basis. The more starters and the deeper your roster the more advantage a skilled FF player has imo.

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On 7/3/2018 at 5:26 PM, Slider said:

I think this is the way to go. We had seven RB's score over the first WR. So, Melvin Gordon over Julio and Antonio Brown is kind of odd.

I think another great adjustment to better reflect that Antonio Brown and Julio Jones are much, Much, MUCH more talented players than players like Melvin Gordon is to give some negative decimal point for every opportunity. If a guy gets 60 yards on 9 carries he had a better game than a guy that had 60 yards on 21 carries. Just like the first downs, and the 3RR drafting, it just seems obvious that more efficient players should get at least a SLIGHT bonus for producing as much or more on fewer opportunities. It doesn't even seem like a debatable point to me. If you are getting a bunch of opportunities you should be getting TD's/first downs/receptions/yards/whatever. If you are getting opportunities and not producing anything...... you are negatively impacting your team. Right?

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Fantasy Football is fine.... message boards are a thing of the past. So to many of you it seems interest in fantasy is down when in reality it’s just the slow death of message boards you are seeing.

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1 hour ago, ImTheScientist said:

Fantasy Football is fine.... message boards are a thing of the past. So to many of you it seems interest in fantasy is down when in reality it’s just the slow death of message boards you are seeing.

Honest question: Should 1 yard be scored as more fantasy points than 1 first down?

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