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Mario Kart

What an embarrassment for our country. re: Immigration

224 posts in this topic

1 minute ago, Underachievers said:

Stunned that a 1 year old child is in court?   

 

Yeah....that happens everyday in this country during custody disputes.    Move along to the next fake outrage.   

Yeah...totally the same thing.

Nailed it.

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4 hours ago, whoknew said:

Trump is a terrible person and undoubtedly made this worse BUT - 

this has been going on for a while. Including during the Obama administration. Its disgusting.

Link

 

4 hours ago, packersfan said:

I don't know how any human, no matter how much you believe in Trump, can support this. This isn't political; this is about right and wrong as people and what's being done to these children is criminal. It would be nice if Trump supporters could at least acknowledge that even while maintaining the belief that our immigration policies need to be improved (which is a completely valid position).

Sadly ...

You go first. Acknowledge that this was going on BEFORE Trump. Your post should not read 'Trump this' and Trump that' when it was happening before he became president. But then, that doesn't' fit your obvious agenda, does it.

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Just now, Calvitron Johnson said:

 

You go first. Acknowledge that this was going on BEFORE Trump. Your post should not read 'Trump this' and Trump that' when it was happening before he became president. But then, that doesn't' fit your obvious agenda, does it.

It wasn’t happening.  

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11 minutes ago, The Commish said:

Your saying what happened under Obama is the same thing happening under Trump.  I have yet to see a link from you showing Obama's policy on separating asylum seeker families from each other.  You've given us a link that shows the policy of a ton of child refugees showing up and how that was was handled and how they were processed.  That, of course, isn't the same as families coming to this country together seeking asylum.  You've been told a billion times that while the end results are "locking people up" under both Obama and Trump, the circumstances are completely different and not comparable at all

#1 there are not many asylum seekers  #2 yes, in those links is information on how kids went through immigration courts  #3 you know by now the pics of kids circulated was during the Obama years too, right ?

asylum is the new word to get people all riled up ......... are these people really qualified asylum seekers or is it being used to justify illegally here people ?

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8 minutes ago, Sabertooth said:

It wasn’t happening.  

March 2016

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/can-a-3-year-old-represent-herself-in-immigration-court-this-judge-thinks-so/2016/03/03/5be59a32-db25-11e5-925f-1d10062cc82d_story.html?utm_term=.7e44bd14a007

 

According to Justice Department figures, 42 percent of the more than 20,000 unaccompanied children involved in deportation proceedings completed between July 2014 and late December had no attorney. It is unclear how often children 5 or younger are forced to defend themselves, but attorneys and advocates for immigrants said it does happen.

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4 hours ago, whoknew said:

Trump is a terrible person and undoubtedly made this worse BUT - 

this has been going on for a while. Including during the Obama administration. Its disgusting.

Link

Linky

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only 20,000 children, in the4 last 6 months of 2014

that was Obama

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will the people here saying it never happened now, finally, acknowledge that it most certainly HAS ?

 

Trump has added to the numbers because he's launched an effort to prosecute everyone here illegally .... but the same process and procedures are there, Obama's administration used them.

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1 hour ago, Stealthycat said:

my problem is spending a billion dollars a year for 8 years and no solution is a complete disaster - whatever bad things are happening at the border in 2017? it all happened in 2015 and 2012 and 2002 and 1998 too with varying waves of numbers

the process and procedures have not changed much - actually applying the laws and enforcing them? that's changed

 

my biggest complaint is the left is just bonkers right now over this ....and for 8 years were pretty much silent with how Obama's administrations did the same things except they didn't enforce the laws as much on prosecuting the illegally being here. Had they done that, the proceedings would have been the same

 

Basically everything in this post is a total lie.

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22 minutes ago, Stealthycat said:

#1 there are not many asylum seekers  #2 yes, in those links is information on how kids went through immigration courts  #3 you know by now the pics of kids circulated was during the Obama years too, right ?

asylum is the new word to get people all riled up ......... are these people really qualified asylum seekers or is it being used to justify illegally here people ?

I KNOW #2 and 3. and I KNOW we have an elevated number of #1....is that "many" or "not many"?  I don't know because it really doesn't matter to me.  The quantity is irrelevant as to how they are treated.  You should go read my comments on what happened on Obama's watch.  You'll learn the concept of consistency.  I don't know what this "asylum is the new word to get people all riled up" shtick is, but it is 100% true this country and all the Presidents before our current one have not treated families seeking asylum in this manner.  Asylum is not a new word or even a new concept.  It's been around since the inception of our immigration policies.  What IS new is the treatment of those seeking asylum. :shrug: 

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36 minutes ago, Dickies said:

Basically everything in this post is a total lie.

I believe you believe that

except everything I'm posting has links that prove it true

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so to recap

Trump caged kids - but he didn't, those pics were from Obama era

Trump lost children - except he didn't

Trump is separating kids from parents - well, actually the law does that but because he's cracked down on illegally here people yes, that happens. However, same process and procedure for Obama years

Trump is putting little kids through court ! well, actually its immigration and that too has happened for a decade now

 

this thread has went very silent all of a sudden .....

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2 hours ago, TobiasFunke said:

Why do people engage other people who lie blatantly and repeatedly and then deny or simply ignore the truth when it is pointed out to them?

You don’t have to do this.  People like that aren’t going to be convinced of anything.  Defeat them by registering voters and getting them to the polls unified behind candidates who can stop the madness. In the meantime there’s an ignore feature here.

You know, I had typed up a pretty scathing response to him but your post made me think. He's never going to listen, and every time I've engaged him the experience has been the same result. I'm going to stop banging my head on that wall. :wall:

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Posted (edited)

13 minutes ago, VandyMan said:

You know, I had typed up a pretty scathing response to him but your post made me think. He's never going to listen, and every time I've engaged him the experience has been the same result. I'm going to stop banging my head on that wall. :wall:

It truly is amazing that a person vould have so many opinions deeply rooted in falsehoods and blindly argues their worth well beyind reason and logic.
Almost seems as if he is something that rhymes with toll

Edited by msommer

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1 hour ago, Underachievers said:

Stunned that a 1 year old child is in court?   

 

Yeah....that happens everyday in this country during custody disputes.    Move along to the next fake outrage.   

1) I'm not a family lawyer but I'm pretty sure courts appoint guardian ad litem to represent children in custody cases.

2) Even if they didn't, the proper response is to be outraged about every court where a 1 year old has to represent himself. Not dismiss it as "Eh - happens all the time."

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49 minutes ago, Stealthycat said:

Trump caged kids - but he didn't, those pics were from Obama era

There are pics of both, so yes, he did

50 minutes ago, Stealthycat said:

Trump lost children - except he didn't

I don't know this talking point, and I think I am better off for it.

50 minutes ago, Stealthycat said:

Trump is separating kids from parents - well, actually the law does that but because he's cracked down on illegally here people yes, that happens. However, same process and procedure for Obama years

There is no law requiring a child be separated from their parents while they are seeking asylum.  That's a Trump policy never done by another President in our history.  There are other situations where the law requires people be separated from their parents and those situations have occurred over time under several different Presidents.  Those are DIFFERENT processes and procedures from what Trump is doing now.

52 minutes ago, Stealthycat said:

Trump is putting little kids through court ! well, actually its immigration and that too has happened for a decade now

Finally got one completely correct.  It's disgusting no matter the President and anyone saying "but others do it to" hold a pretty disgusting take on the whole situation.

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From the commish:

There is no law requiring a child be separated from their parents while they are seeking asylum.  That's a Trump policy never done by another President in our history.  There are other situations where the law requires people be separated from their parents and those situations have occurred over time under several different Presidents.  Those are DIFFERENT processes and procedures from what Trump is doing now.

 

so is what Trump is doing against the law?

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4 hours ago, Stealthycat said:

who knows what they were here for ... you don't, I don't ........... the authorities handle it

was it kids with coyotes? kids with human sex traffickers? kids with family members but not parents? kids alone because their parents abandoned them? I don't know, you don't know ....

this is cnn article too - do not believe the lies that are spreading across the media world on how Trump is or isn't ........... the same procedures and process as Obama,  except he's enforcing the laws to EVERYONE caught here illegally so they can figure it all out - giant damn mess, created by a weak southern border and people flowing across illegally

https://www.cnn.com/2018/05/29/us/immigration-refugee-child-missing-hhs-obama-photo-trnd/index.html

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ae23MjN9GOU

Maybe you should try actually reading about the issue & not just regurgitation Fox News talking points.  There was occasional separation of families under the Obama administration, but nowhere near level it is happening now.  Nielsen admitted as much, in the video YOU posted:

“They (the Obama administration) absolutely did (separate families).  They did — their rate was less than ours, but they absolutely did do this.”

What she failed to mention was that this “lesser rate” she spoke of was 1-2 families separated a year (Obama) vs over 2400 children taken from their families in one month (Trump).  

Your CNN article is from 2 months ago, BEFORE Trump’s NEW policy of separating ALL families entering the country (whether they did so legally/illegally) was public knowledge.  Your bias and cherry-picking of information to try to fit your pre-formed talking points is laughable, while you continue to ignore a simple question: would you be comfortable with YOUR 1-year old having to act on his/her own behalf in family court/the social services system if you were arrested for a crime?

 

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3 hours ago, Sabertooth said:

It wasn’t happening.  

oops, you got owned!!!!!! 

3 hours ago, Stealthycat said:

March 2016

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/can-a-3-year-old-represent-herself-in-immigration-court-this-judge-thinks-so/2016/03/03/5be59a32-db25-11e5-925f-1d10062cc82d_story.html?utm_term=.7e44bd14a007

 

According to Justice Department figures, 42 percent of the more than 20,000 unaccompanied children involved in deportation proceedings completed between July 2014 and late December had no attorney. It is unclear how often children 5 or younger are forced to defend themselves, but attorneys and advocates for immigrants said it does happen.

 

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1 hour ago, irishidiot said:

From the commish:

There is no law requiring a child be separated from their parents while they are seeking asylum.  That's a Trump policy never done by another President in our history.  There are other situations where the law requires people be separated from their parents and those situations have occurred over time under several different Presidents.  Those are DIFFERENT processes and procedures from what Trump is doing now.

 

so is what Trump is doing against the law?

I am not aware of a law that says he can't do it, but I might be wrong.  If there is one, then yes, he's breaking the law :shrug:  

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15 minutes ago, Calvitron Johnson said:

oops, you got owned!!!!!! 

 

The sentence preceding your quote adds some perspective. 

“Although a network of pro bono organizations and a Justice Department program try to help children find attorneys — some paid for by the government — many children are forced to fend for themselves.” 

So, it was primarily a funding issue. I would also point out that it was shown upthread that the Obama administration separated very few families, compared with the massive amount under Trump’s zero-tolerance policy. Also, in 2014 there was a huge wave of thousands of unaccompanied minors, so children representing themselves was going to happen, as a result of the funding issues and the influx of children showing up by themselves. 

 

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51 minutes ago, Calvitron Johnson said:

oops, you got owned!!!!!! 

 

Where in that link did it discuss those children that were taken from their parents who had requested asylum legally?  Because that’s the issue that is at hand; the Trump administration’s zero-tolerance policy forcing people who broke no law and requested asylum LEGALLY, which the Obama administration didn’t do.

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2 hours ago, irishidiot said:

From the commish:

There is no law requiring a child be separated from their parents while they are seeking asylum.  That's a Trump policy never done by another President in our history.  There are other situations where the law requires people be separated from their parents and those situations have occurred over time under several different Presidents.  Those are DIFFERENT processes and procedures from what Trump is doing now.

 

so is what Trump is doing against the law?

Taking children away from people who come here, and follow all us laws to request asylum?

In simple legal terms, failing to provide due process (against the law).

In moral terms, taking innocent children away from their parents because “they are not like us” ( a d_ _ _ move).

 

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14 hours ago, The Commish said:

There is no law requiring a child be separated from their parents while they are seeking asylum.

they're not seeking asylum - that's a new way the Democrat's are justifying illegally here people

 

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3 minutes ago, Stealthycat said:

they're not seeking asylum - that's a new way the Democrat's are justifying illegally here people

 

bull####

 

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13 hours ago, Bayhawks said:

Maybe you should try actually reading about the issue & not just regurgitation Fox News talking points.  There was occasional separation of families under the Obama administration, but nowhere near level it is happening now.  Nielsen admitted as much, in the video YOU posted:

“They (the Obama administration) absolutely did (separate families).  They did — their rate was less than ours, but they absolutely did do this.”

What she failed to mention was that this “lesser rate” she spoke of was 1-2 families separated a year (Obama) vs over 2400 children taken from their families in one month (Trump).  

Your CNN article is from 2 months ago, BEFORE Trump’s NEW policy of separating ALL families entering the country (whether they did so legally/illegally) was public knowledge.  Your bias and cherry-picking of information to try to fit your pre-formed talking points is laughable, while you continue to ignore a simple question: would you be comfortable with YOUR 1-year old having to act on his/her own behalf in family court/the social services system if you were arrested for a crime?

define occasional - give me the numbers please because people here have said it did NOT happen - and yet, it dang sure did

what are the numbers?   well, we know tens of thousands of kids had to go to Immigration courts ........... were they separated from their parents? abandoned? 

its not clear (like any Govt issue)    but the numbers are out there that show there were huge spikes under Obama with kids being in shelters/centers etc and huge spikes in deportation numbers too ...... that smells like separating families except for those 8 years Democrats didn't care, they just didn't

http://www.newsweek.com/trump-administration-holding-more-immigrant-children-shelters-ever-949099

"In fiscal year 2013, under the Barack Obama administration, the HHS Office of Refugee Resettlement (ORR) had as many as 25,000 unaccompanied children in its care across 80 shelters, according to a July 2014 article in Mother Jones."

 

 

yes, Trump escalated by having a zero tolerance policy and I'm all for that because this issue HAS to be solved. 8 years Obama solved nothing - fact

 

 

 

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Posted (edited)

13 hours ago, The Football Freak said:

I would also point out that it was shown upthread that the Obama administration separated very few families

that's simply not known ...... what we DO know is there were massive spiked in deportation AND massive spiked in kids being put in holding centers AND tens of thousands going to immigration court hearings

 

I will say, as I support Trump's administration in handling illegally here, I also supported Obama. The southern border HAS to be fixed, that problem HAS to be addressed and its not easy

A 8 year old kid walks across the border is NOT an easy deal it. Who is the child? Abused? drug mule? where are the parents? family? there are processes and procedures that have to be followed that take time and money and effort .......... and whomever put that kid on the border, they damn well knew it would be too

 

Edited by Stealthycat

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oh and UNACCOMPANIED means they weren't with their parents which would make it difficult to be separated from their parents wouldn't it?

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18 minutes ago, Stealthycat said:

define occasional - give me the numbers please because people here have said it did NOT happen - and yet, it dang sure did

what are the numbers?   well, we know tens of thousands of kids had to go to Immigration courts ........... were they separated from their parents? abandoned? 

its not clear (like any Govt issue)    but the numbers are out there that show there were huge spikes under Obama with kids being in shelters/centers etc and huge spikes in deportation numbers too ...... that smells like separating families except for those 8 years Democrats didn't care, they just didn't

http://www.newsweek.com/trump-administration-holding-more-immigrant-children-shelters-ever-949099

"In fiscal year 2013, under the Barack Obama administration, the HHS Office of Refugee Resettlement (ORR) had as many as 25,000 unaccompanied children in its care across 80 shelters, according to a July 2014 article in Mother Jones."

 

 

yes, Trump escalated by having a zero tolerance policy and I'm all for that because this issue HAS to be solved. 8 years Obama solved nothing - fact

 

 

 

You keep conflating numbers.  Either you are doing it because you really don't understand what is being discussed, or (more likely) because you understand the issue, but know that your talking points are wrong and want to try to muddy the waters to defend Trump's illegal and immoral policy.

The issue is Trump separating families that HAVE BROKEN NO LAW.  Those people who come here, present themselves to American authorities in accordance with American law, and request asylum.  The Trump administration is separating these families, as a matter of practice, as part of their zero-tolerance policy.  The Obama administration did not.  There are no numbers to support your assertion that they did. 

YOU are the one that keeps claiming that Trump is merely doing what Obama did, so YOU show some proof of YOUR claims.  Show me a link that shows that the Obama administration separated families of people that followed all US laws in requesting asylum.  NOT the same link you keep pointing to that discusses how families that illegally entered the county were separated.  That's not the issue being discussed.  I've already provided links to show that Trump is separating families that have broken no laws.  They are upthread.  It's your turn to actually provide support for your claim.

While you are at it, can you please answer the question that has been posed multiple times? 

Are you okay with YOUR 1-year old having to fend for himself/herself in court and/or the social service system if you were to be arrested for suspicion of committing a crime?

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7 minutes ago, Bayhawks said:

The issue is Trump separating families that HAVE BROKEN NO LAW.  Those people who come here, present themselves to American authorities in accordance with American law, and request asylum.  The Trump administration is separating these families, as a matter of practice, as part of their zero-tolerance policy.  The Obama administration did not.  There are no numbers to support your assertion that they did.

as I understand it that's not what'd happening ........... there are definitions and proceedings to asylum, you cannot claim it just because you want to come to the USA

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Posted (edited)

2 minutes ago, Stealthycat said:

as I understand it that's not what'd happening ........... there are definitions and proceedings to asylum, you cannot claim it just because you want to come to the USA

Then you understand it wrong.  I provided links upthread, both to articles discussing it, and a court case where the government is being sued for this practice of the Trump administration.

ETA-so, where are your links?  And, what is your answer to the question posed?

 

Edited by Bayhawks
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8 minutes ago, Bayhawks said:

YOU are the one that keeps claiming that Trump is merely doing what Obama did, so YOU show some proof of YOUR claims.  Show me a link that shows that the Obama administration separated families of people that followed all US laws in requesting asylum.  NOT the same link you keep pointing to that discusses how families that illegally entered the county were separated.  That's not the issue being discussed.  I've already provided links to show that Trump is separating families that have broken no laws.  They are upthread.  It's your turn to actually provide support for your claim.

While you are at it, can you please answer the question that has been posed multiple times? 

Are you okay with YOUR 1-year old having to fend for himself/herself in court and/or the social service system if you were to be arrested for suspicion of committing a crime?

I have shown link after link, its your responsibility to open them and understand the correlations and information. i cannot do that for you

Illegally here people and those seeking asylum ..... how do you separate them ? you don't - the authorities do

 

As to your question if that's the way the proceedings are set by rules of our law then I guess the 1 year old goes to a hearing - that's the laws. Trump didn't create all that, it was already in place and again, under obama there were tens of thousands of youth going to same court proceedings and ya'll didn't care about it then

 

why ?

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Just now, Stealthycat said:

(1) I have shown link after link, its your responsibility to open them and understand the correlations and information. i cannot do that for you

(2) Illegally here people and those seeking asylum ..... how do you separate them ? you don't - the authorities do

 

(3) As to your question if that's the way the proceedings are set by rules of our law then I guess the 1 year old goes to a hearing - that's the laws. Trump didn't create all that, it was already in place and again, under obama there were tens of thousands of youth going to same court proceedings and ya'll didn't care about it then

 

why ?

1-You haven't shown a single link that shows the Obama administration separated families that broke no laws. That is the issue at hand, that is what you are claiming (that Obama did it first).  So, again, please provide a link that proves your assertion, not the many links you've provided to try to muddy the waters.

2-Those seeking asylum, LEGALLY, present themselves to American authorities and request asylum.  Those who do not are committing a crime.  That's how you separate them.  Obama didn't separate those families who followed US law when requesting asylum, Trump has.

3-That wasn't my question.  Would YOU be okay with YOUR 1-year old having to fend for him/herself in legal matters if you were arrested for a crime? 

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31 minutes ago, The Commish said:

oh and UNACCOMPANIED means they weren't with their parents which would make it difficult to be separated from their parents wouldn't it?

not difficult for it to be mis-reported no

its not an easy situation, it could all be 100% stopped by not coming here illegally or abandoning your kids at the border

how many are sent alone towards the US border and end up dead, in drug cartels, sex trade etc?  all that is made possible by having a porous southern border and sanctuary cities that encourage, literally, human trafficking

its unbelievable ya'll want to continue that

8 years Obama did nothing to help stop it - will 4 or 8 years of Trump?   all remains to be seen but I'll tell you this, in that what if scenario on the 1 year old

 

if I am a single parent of a 1 year old and I go 1,000 miles south, across the Mexico border, illegally and I get caught by Mexican immigration authorities ?   I damn sure know right now, ahead of time, they're separating me and my kid and I will likely be put in prison and might not ever see my kid again.

if I decide to go anyway, the repercussions of that decision are on ME - my choices, my fault

 

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1 minute ago, Bayhawks said:

1-You haven't shown a single link that shows the Obama administration separated families that broke no laws. That is the issue at hand, that is what you are claiming (that Obama did it first).  So, again, please provide a link that proves your assertion, not the many links you've provided to try to muddy the waters.

2-Those seeking asylum, LEGALLY, present themselves to American authorities and request asylum.  Those who do not are committing a crime.  That's how you separate them.  Obama didn't separate those families who followed US law when requesting asylum, Trump has.

3-That wasn't my question.  Would YOU be okay with YOUR 1-year old having to fend for him/herself in legal matters if you were arrested for a crime?

1-     Here illegally is against the law. You can apply for asylum, but all that has to be processed and figured out

https://www.uscis.gov/humanitarian/refugees-asylum/asylum/obtaining-asylum-united-states

2-    no, its not that easy because people are liars. Do you think drug cartel and MS13 gang members and criminals on the run will lie about asylum ? here is a link and numbers for you

chew on this

"Between 2009 and 2015 his administration has removed more than 2.5 million people through immigration orders, which doesn’t include the number of people who "self-deported" or were turned away and/or returned to their home country at the border by U.S. Customs and Border Protection (CBP)."

"According to governmental data, the Obama administration has deported more people than any other president's administration in history.

In fact, they have deported more than the sum of all the presidents of the 20th century."

were they asylum seekers? was Obama the anti-asylum President ?  maybe its the same people Trump is having to deal with ?  how many are re-entry and that's a felony conviction

3-   you don't like the answer because it doesn't fit your agenda ............ I believe in owning responsibility so yes, if my 1 year old suffered through the proceedings of the law in which I placed him with my choices, I'd have to be ok with that because it was the risk I took and its my fault for him being there. Not his fault, not the legal proceedings in which they're all just doing their jobs ..... that fault for him being there is mine for going to another country illegally.

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, The Commish said:

bull####

 

Illegally here people?

 

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I will say this.

The left knows how to stir the feelings of the people of this country and not the happy, feel good ones but the anger and hatred ones.

Damn shame in 8 years of Obama this same border / illegally here problem wasn't addressed and maybe that administration could have done something about it. True too that GW had 8 years and did nothing either, nor did Bush Sr nor did Bill Clinton.  But they didn't and this administration has to.

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1 hour ago, The Commish said:

bull####

 

riddle me this

Obama deported record numbers - true or false ?

were they all asylum seekers ?

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2 minutes ago, Stealthycat said:

1-     Here illegally is against the law. You can apply for asylum, but all that has to be processed and figured out

https://www.uscis.gov/humanitarian/refugees-asylum/asylum/obtaining-asylum-united-states

2-    no, its not that easy because people are liars. Do you think drug cartel and MS13 gang members and criminals on the run will lie about asylum ? here is a link and numbers for you

chew on this

"Between 2009 and 2015 his administration has removed more than 2.5 million people through immigration orders, which doesn’t include the number of people who "self-deported" or were turned away and/or returned to their home country at the border by U.S. Customs and Border Protection (CBP)."

"According to governmental data, the Obama administration has deported more people than any other president's administration in history.

In fact, they have deported more than the sum of all the presidents of the 20th century."

were they asylum seekers? was Obama the anti-asylum President ?  maybe its the same people Trump is having to deal with ?  how many are re-entry and that's a felony conviction

3-   you don't like the answer because it doesn't fit your agenda ............ I believe in owning responsibility so yes, if my 1 year old suffered through the proceedings of the law in which I placed him with my choices, I'd have to be ok with that because it was the risk I took and its my fault for him being there. Not his fault, not the legal proceedings in which they're all just doing their jobs ..... that fault for him being there is mine for going to another country illegally.

 

 

 

1-Good god, man!  There is a legal process for requesting asylum.  It's not "sneak across the border, get arrested, then say 'asylum!' "  If these people follow all the LEGAL requirements for requesting asylum, THEY ARE NOT HERE ILLEGALLY!  Stop trying to cloud the issue by posting irrelevant nonsense/

LEGAL process to request asylum in the US, WITHOUT BREAKING ANY LAW, i.e.-NOT here illegally

2-Since you don't understand the difference between what is legal and illegal, this point you made (like much of what you've posted in this thread) is meaningless.

3-Thank you for FINALLY answering the question.  I hope you are being disingenuous, because it says A LOT about you if you think a 1-year old should have to suffer for any faults/sins/crimes of his/her parent.

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