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Mario Kart

What an embarrassment for our country. re: Immigration

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you didn't talk about Obama and all the ones his administration sent back ..... they were illegal, but not asylum seekers right ?

maybe, just maybe, that's what's happening here too, a continuation of the southern border issue and the left is using asylum to stir anger and hate ?

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2018/07/10/guatemalan-national-pays-280-fine-for-negligent-driving-in-crash-that-killed-fbi-agent-fire-marshal.html

I guess he was asylum seeker ?

 

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Just now, Stealthycat said:

you didn't talk about Obama and all the ones his administration sent back ..... they were illegal, but not asylum seekers right ?

So Trump was lying and you fell for it when the big rallying cry to elect Trump was we needed tougher immigration and border security, but now you are saying we had it under Obama??

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1 hour ago, Stealthycat said:

as I understand it that's not what'd happening ........... there are definitions and proceedings to asylum, you cannot claim it just because you want to come to the USA

Exactly....you understand it wrong, but instead of listening to those of us trying to explain it, you're having none of it and continuing with your misunderstanding as if it means something building the gamut of deflection "arguments" all the way down to straw man arguments like this one:

1 hour ago, Stealthycat said:

its unbelievable ya'll want to continue that

I could go line by line AGAIN, but there's no point.  You have no interest in trying to understand the issue we are bringing up and how it's different.  I should have known better.

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1 hour ago, Stealthycat said:

Obama deported record numbers - true or false ?

Oh and to this...according to YOUR sources, this is abjectly false.  He was terrible on immigration and that's why you elected Trump.....because Obama wasn't doing enough.  So you tell me?  Was that all bull#### too or was he actually doing what you were asking for him to do?

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1 hour ago, Stealthycat said:

you didn't talk about Obama and all the ones his administration sent back ..... they were illegal, but not asylum seekers right ?

maybe, just maybe, that's what's happening here too, a continuation of the southern border issue and the left is using asylum to stir anger and hate ?

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2018/07/10/guatemalan-national-pays-280-fine-for-negligent-driving-in-crash-that-killed-fbi-agent-fire-marshal.html

I guess he was asylum seeker ?

 

Did you even read the link you provided?

Quote

Garza Palacios was arrested by immigration officers for being unlawfully present in the U.S. after overstaying a work visa that expired in 2009

So he was here legally (he had a work visa), then he was here illegally (overstayed the work visa).  That link has LITERALLY NOTHING to do with the discussion at hand (Trump's NEW policy of separating ALL who try to enter the country, regardless of whether they broke any laws or not).

Seriously, can you make it any more obvious that you have no wish to actually discuss the topic and merely want to try to obfuscate and muddy the waters with your nonsense?

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3 minutes ago, Bayhawks said:

 

Seriously, can you make it any more obvious that you have no wish to actually discuss the topic and merely want to try to obfuscate and muddy the waters with your nonsense?

That really sounds like a dare.

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1 hour ago, Bayhawks said:

So he was here legally (he had a work visa), then he was here illegally (overstayed the work visa).  That link has LITERALLY NOTHING to do with the discussion at hand (Trump's NEW policy of separating ALL who try to enter the country, regardless of whether they broke any laws or not).

Seriously, can you make it any more obvious that you have no wish to actually discuss the topic and merely want to try to obfuscate and muddy the waters with your nonsense?

maybe after the Visa ended he is wanting asylum ? who are you to judge ?

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2 hours ago, urbanhack said:

So Trump was lying and you fell for it when the big rallying cry to elect Trump was we needed tougher immigration and border security, but now you are saying we had it under Obama??

we had the same laws and processes and rules .... Obama didn't follow them (prosecuting) like Trump is

that's the difference

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maybe that was a poor link to the issue which is .... of all those Obama sent back from the USA, how many were asylum seekers ?

you mean to say that when Trump took office they all started coming her for asylum but not the 8 years before ?

c'mon

they're here illegally and most do not meet the criteria of asylum ...

"Asylum has three basic requirements. First, an asylum applicant must establish that he or she fears persecution in their home country.[3] Second, the applicant must prove that he or she would be persecuted on account of one of five protected grounds: race, religion, nationality, political opinion, or particular social group. Third, an applicant must establish that the government is either involved in the persecution, or unable to control the conduct of private actors."

these people are not persecuted, the Govt isn't involved etc

 

their home countries are hell holes - that's why they want to leave, it has nothing to do with anything other than that for the vast majoirty

 

now, can we please quit calling it something it isn't ?

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Posted (edited)

Fun testimonials!

Olivia Caceres (El Salvador)
Backstory: Caceres was traveling in a caravan with her 14-month-old (called “M.” in court documents) who became sick on the journey to the U.S. border. The father, “J.”, rushed ahead with the child, and the two were separated at the U.S. border crossing in San Ysidro, California, across from Tijuana.
Testimony: “I learned from other members of the caravan who crossed successfully…that immigration officers took M. from J. I felt as if someone had dumped a bucket of cold water on me… Finally, after 7 days of desperately searching for M., I was able to locate him in a shelter in Los Fresnos, Texas. [The child was taken in November 2017 and reunited with his mother – who was detained at the border but subsequently released in the United States in February 2018.]

I went to the Los Angeles airport, showed my identification, signed some documents and they returned M. to me. M. looked scared, he looked absent, he did not seem to capture that he was with me. He would only stare…. When I took off his clothes he was full of dirt and lice. It seemed like they had not bathed him the 85 days he was away from us…. M. is not the same since we were reunited. I thought that, because he is so young he would not be traumatized by this experience, but he does not separate from me. He cries when he does not see me.”


 

Edited by TobiasFunke

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Posted (edited)

Let's keep it going, because each of these stories deserves attention and should be a source of shame for every single decent human being in this country:

Angelica Rebeca Gonzalez-Garcia (Guatemala)
Backstory: The 31-year-old mother fled domestic abuse with her then seven-year-old daughter.
Testimony: “On May 10, 2018, the day after our arrest, Officers came into the room and told me that they intended to take my daughter away from me… Most devastating of all, the Officers said I would never see my daughter again. When the Officers told me this, I felt like collapsing and dying. I cannot express the pain and fear I felt at that point. My daughter was only seven years old and she was much too young to be taken from me.

“When I asked why, the Officers said that I had ‘endangered’ her by bringing her here… During this same conversation one of the officers asked me ‘In Guatemala do they celebrate mother’s day?’ When I answered yes he said, ‘Then Happy Mother’s Day,’ because the next Sunday was Mother’s day. I lowered my head so that my daughter would not see the tears forming in my eyes. That particular act of cruelty astonished me then as it does now. I could not understand why they hated me so much, or wanted to hurt me so much.”

Edited by TobiasFunke

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Posted (edited)

 

Doris Arriagga-Pineda (Unspecified)
Backstory: Fleeing domestic violence.
Testimony: “On May 20th, I was detained. I requested asylum and they took me to the ‘icebox’ (la hielera), where I spent one day with my daughter… who is 6 years of age. We slept on the floor there, with only the aluminum blanket… On May 22nd, they took me to the court, when I got back, they had taken her away… The officer kept saying that I wasn’t my daughter’s mother… What worries me the most about my daughter is the separation… It is difficult for her to eat. She always cries. The day I called, she couldn’t speak. My life is my daughter.”

Edited by TobiasFunke

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Posted (edited)

 

Gladys Monroy-Guerra de Tesucum (Guatemala)
Backstory: “I am afraid of returning to my country, because my cousin will kill me and my children. I caught him raping his step-daughter. He is a drug trafficker and he has killed more than 45 people. He told me, in writing with a note on my door, that he is going to dismember me. He has threatened my children as well. We had to flee….The police in my country cannot do anything to protect us.”
Testimony: “When I first spoke with ICE officers, they told us, ‘Why did you come from your country?’, ‘Don’t you know that we hate you people?’, ‘We don’t want you in our country.’

“My two children… fled with me and came in with me… They separated them from me, and they took me to court, where they condemned me as a criminal. No one asked me if I was afraid to return to my country or why I fled… There was no opportunity for me to say goodbye to my children. When I came back to the “dog kennel” (perrera), where we were being held, my boys weren’t there anymore… I didn’t know where they were…

“I am seeking refuge in the USA. We are being treated like criminals in chains and everything. I’m just seeking refuge.”

Edited by TobiasFunke

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Posted (edited)

23 minutes ago, Stealthycat said:

we had the same laws and processes and rules .... Obama didn't follow them (prosecuting) like Trump is

that's the difference

no...it's not

and you have YET to give me the law requiring children be separated from their parents while the family is coming here for asylum.  patiently waiting though

Edited by The Commish

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Maricela Batres (El Salvador)
Backstory: “I had a store in El Salvador. Members of the gang MS-13 demanded money as ‘rent.’ I do not have it, and they have said that if I do not pay $300 a month they will kill my son and me.”
Testimony: “I entered the USA on May 20, 2018 with my son. We were placed in the ‘kennel,’ where we sleep on the ground with a blanket made of aluminum. The officers told us our children would be taken from us for the crime of crossing the border… The officers said that the children would not return. One said ‘It is the price to pay for crossing the border. We do this so that when you return to your countries you do not return, and so you tell your relatives not to come because we will take your children from you.’ I do not know where my son is. I have had no communication with him. The consulate gave me a paper in English with a telephone number. When I call it, no one answers.”

 

Sounds more like terrorism than deterrence to me, but :shrug:

 

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Nery Flores-Oliva (Unspecified)
Backstory: “I came to the United States with my 6-year-old son, afraid after they killed my
husband’s two brothers.”
Testimony: “I entered the United States on May 14, in Reynoso. I was picked up and taken to the ‘icebox,’ a cold room. They treated us badly. My son was with me. The following day the officer told me that they were going to take my son to shower. And they sent me somewhere else, and they never returned with my son. I felt deceived. I never saw him again… I only ask that I be reunited with my son. He is young. He needs me.”

 

Literally a Nazi tactic.

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Yolani Karina Padilla-Orellana (Honduras)
Backstory: “I am a single mother. I received death threats and was afraid they would take my son in Honduras. That is why I decided to come with my son to the United States.”
Testimony: “When we arrived to the United States on May 18, the officers said… when would we stop coming? [and] that it would be better if a bomb were set off in our countries…. From there, my son Jelsin and I were separated. I was not told where he was being taken. They only told me he would be a ward of the state…. On the first day in the ‘icebox,’ they took me out to have my photo taken. I did not expect to see my son but they also brought him out so we could take a photo together… But they did not allow me to talk to him or hug him… That is the last time I saw my son.

While I was in the icebox, I was able to talk to an officer and I told him that I was afraid of returning to Honduras for the reasons I have stated. He told me I was going to be deported without my son. He told me I would be able to ask for my son 45 days after arriving in Honduras. Upon hearing this, I knelt down crying. The officer only laughed.”

 

Donald Trump defends ICE at every turn.  Meanwhile this morning he pardoned two Bundy affiliates who endangered the lives of BLM enforcement personnel by deliberately setting a fire on federal land.  Don't let anyone tell you this is about law and order.  Trump could care less about federal employees and the jobs they're tasked to do, unless that job involves cruelty towards brown people.

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"Well, I have a solution. Tell people not to come to our country illegally. That's the solution. Don't come to our country illegally. Come like other people do. Come legally," Trump told reporters.

 

Pretty basic stuff here.

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3 minutes ago, Weebs210 said:

"Well, I have a solution. Tell people not to come to our country illegally. That's the solution. Don't come to our country illegally. Come like other people do. Come legally," Trump told reporters.

 

Pretty basic stuff here.

Until you realize that (1) it is already incredibly difficult to come to our country legally and Trump and the GOP are working every day to make it even more difficult, and (2) "not coming to our country illegally" effectively means "stay in your country and be beaten, tortured, raped and murdered" for many people seeking asylum.

So Trump is actually saying "I have a solution. Tell people to stay in their country to be beaten, tortured, raped and murdered unless they can somehow beat impossible odds and gain legal entry to the United States despite my best efforts to deny that legal entry."

I agree, pretty basic stuff. But also incredibly cruel and IMO un-American.

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15 minutes ago, Weebs210 said:

"Well, I have a solution. Tell people not to come to our country illegally. That's the solution. Don't come to our country illegally. Come like other people do. Come legally," Trump told reporters.

 

Pretty basic stuff here.

Is this your final solution?

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57 minutes ago, Weebs210 said:

"Well, I have a solution. Tell people not to come to our country illegally. That's the solution. Don't come to our country illegally. Come like other people do. Come legally," Trump told reporters.

 

Pretty basic stuff here.

That didn’t matt r either in several instances.

Amd his administration has worked to limit legal immigration as well.

So his solution is terrible...as usual.

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Instead of asylum who don't these people just ask to work in Trumps hotels?  He hires them instead of Americans whenever he can.  He thinks they work harder and cause less trouble.

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2 hours ago, Stealthycat said:

maybe after the Visa ended he is wanting asylum ? who are you to judge ?

It’s been posted like a dozen times.  I provided a link explaining exactly what is involved in requesting asylum.  You have this ignorant belief that anyone can just shout “asylum” and that means they’ve requested asylum. That’s not how it works.  

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1 minute ago, Bayhawks said:

It’s been posted like a dozen times.  I provided a link explaining exactly what is involved in requesting asylum.  You have this ignorant belief that anyone can just shout “asylum” and that means they’ve requested asylum. That’s not how it works.  

I wonder if that is how Stealthycat declares bankruptcy too. 

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5 hours ago, Stealthycat said:

not difficult for it to be mis-reported no

YOU asked for the numbers and Commish provided the official numbers, but you just dismiss them as being possibly mis-reported.  Let's see you provide evidence backing up that claim.

5 hours ago, Stealthycat said:

it could all be 100% stopped by not coming here illegally or abandoning your kids at the border

Again, for the 100th time these are people seeking asylum, which is not akin to coming here illegally and there is a process to determine the merits of their request.  

5 hours ago, Stealthycat said:

its unbelievable ya'll want to continue that

8 years Obama did nothing to help stop it - will 4 or 8 years of Trump?  

You said upthread you supported Obama's immigration policy, but then also say he did nothing to stop illegal immigration

5 hours ago, Stealthycat said:

if I am a single parent of a 1 year old and I go 1,000 miles south, across the Mexico border, illegally and I get caught by Mexican immigration authorities ?   I damn sure know right now, ahead of time, they're separating me and my kid and I will likely be put in prison and might not ever see my kid again.

I would like the USA to treat people better than how Mexico treats people, but you're right about one thing.  The best way to dissuade people from immigrating to the USA is to treat them worse than MS13 and the drug cartels.

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Posted (edited)

2 hours ago, Stealthycat said:

maybe that was a poor link to the issue which is .... of all those Obama sent back from the USA, how many were asylum seekers ?

you mean to say that when Trump took office they all started coming her for asylum but not the 8 years before ?

c'mon

they're here illegally and most do not meet the criteria of asylum ...

"Asylum has three basic requirements. First, an asylum applicant must establish that he or she fears persecution in their home country.[3] Second, the applicant must prove that he or she would be persecuted on account of one of five protected grounds: race, religion, nationality, political opinion, or particular social group. Third, an applicant must establish that the government is either involved in the persecution, or unable to control the conduct of private actors."

these people are not persecuted, the Govt isn't involved etc

 

their home countries are hell holes - that's why they want to leave, it has nothing to do with anything other than that for the vast majoirty

 

now, can we please quit calling it something it isn't ?

Hey, guy; that quote shows what is involved in the GOVERNMENT GRANTING asylum.  Just because someone requests asylum, doesn’t mean the government has to find that they deserve it.

BUT, if someone follows ALL the US laws with regards to requesting asylum (which is the subject at hand, no matter how much you want to pretend it’s something else), they’ve committed no crime, can’t LEGALLY be jailed/imprisoned, and can’t LEGALLY have their kids taken from them.  Obama’s administration didn’t do this, while Trump’s does, as a part of their zero-tolerance policy.

Edited by Bayhawks

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5 hours ago, Bayhawks said:

3-Thank you for FINALLY answering the question.  I hope you are being disingenuous, because it says A LOT about you if you think a 1-year old should have to suffer for any faults/sins/crimes of his/her parent.

Except the parents aren't criminals.  

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2 hours ago, Stealthycat said:

maybe after the Visa ended he is wanting asylum ? who are you to judge ?

GTFO with this bull####

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1 hour ago, Weebs210 said:

"Well, I have a solution. Tell people not to come to our country illegally. That's the solution. Don't come to our country illegally. Come like other people do. Come legally," Trump told reporters.

 

Pretty basic stuff here.

For the 20th time, people who present themselves to immigration officials at ports of call and request asylum ARE NOT coming here illegally.

Please explain how our ignorant POtuS’ quote has anything to do with what is being discussed here?

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1 hour ago, TobiasFunke said:

Until you realize that (1) it is already incredibly difficult to come to our country legally and Trump and the GOP are working every day to make it even more difficult, and (2) "not coming to our country illegally" effectively means "stay in your country and be beaten, tortured, raped and murdered" for many people seeking asylum.

So Trump is actually saying "I have a solution. Tell people to stay in their country to be beaten, tortured, raped and murdered unless they can somehow beat impossible odds and gain legal entry to the United States despite my best efforts to deny that legal entry."

I agree, pretty basic stuff. But also incredibly cruel and IMO un-American.

And herein lies the problem.  There's a lot of people on the "right" who agree we should look at asylum cases.  However, what is the process for this and what are the limits on this?  It's also not a coincidence of the exponential growth of people making asylum claims at the border.  Our system is being gamed and we need to fix it so that we can try and help those who are legitimately in need of asylum.  We have a lot of situations (Syria, Libya, etc) all over the world where there are people being treated poorly and living in dangerous conditions.  However this has always been the case.  There may be more from certain areas today and less from others.  How many should we take and what is the process for deciding this? 

I don't know that we have a good plan.  You have people on the left saying that conservatives want to deny everyone and separate families.  You have people on the right saying the left wants totally free flowing borders and criminals and all can come in as they please.  The truth is that while those people may exist on the fringes, most of the people on either side don't have that extreme of a stance, or so I'd like to think.  But even if you're someone who has a tempered view on your side, the rhetoric today likely has even those people believing that the other side is full of hard liners and radicals.  That's what gets the news coverage these days.

 

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1 hour ago, TobiasFunke said:

Until you realize that (1) it is already incredibly difficult to come to our country legally and Trump and the GOP are working every day to make it even more difficult, and (2) "not coming to our country illegally" effectively means "stay in your country and be beaten, tortured, raped and murdered" for many people seeking asylum.

So Trump is actually saying "I have a solution. Tell people to stay in their country to be beaten, tortured, raped and murdered unless they can somehow beat impossible odds and gain legal entry to the United States despite my best efforts to deny that legal entry."

I agree, pretty basic stuff. But also incredibly cruel and IMO un-American.

And you didn't even mention that of all the options on how to deal with people crossing the border undocumented, Trump decided on an incredibly cruel, inhumane option. 

So you can add this sentence to what Trump is actually saying - "But if you still choose to come here to seek a better life, we are going to destroy your family."

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12 minutes ago, Bayhawks said:

For the 20th time, people who present themselves to immigration officials at ports of call and request asylum ARE NOT coming here illegally.

Please explain how our ignorant POtuS’ quote has anything to do with what is being discussed here?

Using a loop hole is illegal in my book.

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2 hours ago, Stealthycat said:

maybe that was a poor link to the issue which is .... of all those Obama sent back from the USA, how many were asylum seekers ?

you mean to say that when Trump took office they all started coming her for asylum but not the 8 years before ?

c'mon

they're here illegally and most do not meet the criteria of asylum ...

"Asylum has three basic requirements. First, an asylum applicant must establish that he or she fears persecution in their home country.[3] Second, the applicant must prove that he or she would be persecuted on account of one of five protected grounds: race, religion, nationality, political opinion, or particular social group. Third, an applicant must establish that the government is either involved in the persecution, or unable to control the conduct of private actors."

these people are not persecuted, the Govt isn't involved etc

 

their home countries are hell holes - that's why they want to leave, it has nothing to do with anything other than that for the vast majoirty

 

now, can we please quit calling it something it isn't ?

Operation goalpost shift engaged!!!!!!!!!!!!!

If the bold is the "issue" we are discussing it's just more proof you aren't paying a single bit of attention to what is being said.  It's not about being "sent back".  It's about when they come here seeking asylum, them being automatically separated from their kids while the process unfolds.  You've been told this a billion times already.  It's not about illegal immigrants coming here either.  Yes, I think America is better than what is being put on display at our borders today, but that isn't what this was about.  It's about the application of a policy that our "president" and his administration came up with on their own, that has never been a policy before and how abhorrent that policy unique to our "president" and his administration is.  

 

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2 minutes ago, Weebs210 said:
15 minutes ago, Bayhawks said:

For the 20th time, people who present themselves to immigration officials at ports of call and request asylum ARE NOT coming here illegally.

Please explain how our ignorant POtuS’ quote has anything to do with what is being discussed here?

Using a loop hole is illegal in my book.

Then however you use the term loophole is completely different than anyone who's ever used it before.  Loopholes are ambiguities/inadequacies in the law or, sometimes, outright omissions from the law/rule to benefit a specific set of people.  They are not actually breaking the law.  As such, when they are discovered the courts usually get involved to clarify.  Then a precedent is set.  That happened here and the courts ruled the kids needed to be reunited with their parents.  That in Weebs World it's "illegal" means exactly nothing.

Pretty comical that this has to be explained to the alleged "law and order" crowd :lol: 

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19 minutes ago, Shula-holic said:

And herein lies the problem.  There's a lot of people on the "right" who agree we should look at asylum cases.  However, what is the process for this and what are the limits on this?  It's also not a coincidence of the exponential growth of people making asylum claims at the border.  Our system is being gamed and we need to fix it so that we can try and help those who are legitimately in need of asylum.  We have a lot of situations (Syria, Libya, etc) all over the world where there are people being treated poorly and living in dangerous conditions.  However this has always been the case.  There may be more from certain areas today and less from others.  How many should we take and what is the process for deciding this? 

I don't know that we have a good plan.  You have people on the left saying that conservatives want to deny everyone and separate families.  You have people on the right saying the left wants totally free flowing borders and criminals and all can come in as they please.  The truth is that while those people may exist on the fringes, most of the people on either side don't have that extreme of a stance, or so I'd like to think.  But even if you're someone who has a tempered view on your side, the rhetoric today likely has even those people believing that the other side is full of hard liners and radicals.  That's what gets the news coverage these days.

 

What you say is true, but this particular thread is about a very specific type of embarrassment.  We may not have a great plan for immigration overall, but whatever we had for the last decade or two is clearly preferable to the historical awfulness of the last year and we need to acknowledge and strongly reject that IMO. If we can't all agree that torturing children by the thousands and not even bothering to keep records that would allow those children to be reunited with their parents is really really really bad, we should throw in the towel now. No reason to debate the nuances of immigration policy.

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The US has a set of laws dictating how one can apply for asylum in the US, and you think if a person follows those laws, he/she is using a “loophole?”

 

 

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3 minutes ago, Bayhawks said:

 

The US has a set of laws dictating how one can apply for asylum in the US, and you think if a person follows those laws, he/she is using a “loophole?”

 

 

good shtick no?

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6 minutes ago, Bayhawks said:

 

The US has a set of laws dictating how one can apply for asylum in the US, and you think if a person follows those laws, he/she is using a “loophole?”

 

 

And also :lol: at the assumption that "apply for" equals "granted"

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On 7/9/2018 at 9:55 AM, Mario Kart said:

This is a one-year old we're talking about. An infant! To see the excuses above answered in regards to infants/toddlers in immigration court... does not compare at all.

So...did this one-year old just crawl here? 

If the parent has already been sent back, what’s the concern? Send the child back to his parent. 

 

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Posted (edited)

4 minutes ago, jerry jones said:

So...did this one-year old just crawl here? 

If the parent has already been sent back, what’s the concern? Send the child back to his parent. 

 

Well, apparently the one year old was carried here by his or her alleged parents (we don't know for sure since the DNA tests have only just begun being taken). Then was separated from them by ICE, who forgot to register which child was taken from whom (hence another need for DNA tests) and now the one year old has to appear in court without any way of giving him or her guidance.

Does that clarify the predicament?

Edited by msommer

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