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bostonfred

Conservatives, what do you actually want?

147 posts in this topic

2 minutes ago, Opie said:

The Preamble of the US Constitution tells us the perceived role of government.  It sets the guidelines and WE follow it.

The left wants step-by-step instructions on what is "good" and what is "bad" and they rely on the Government to tell them which is which and to make it so.

The purpose of our Federal Government, as found in the Preamble of the Constitution, is to.... "establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our posterity." ...that's it.  Defined...carry on.

The US Constitution is not a "living, breathing document."  It is complete.  We do not change a paragraph, a word, or a punctuation mark when interpreting those words to make it fit OUR preferences.  We leave it to the SCOTUS to interpret the words and  If we want to change it, we take the proper steps listed IN the document itself.

Don't look to the Courts to make laws...leave that to the Congress...."the Peoples' House".   Elect people who believe like you do.  Don not expect the SCOTUS to "make things right".  They will determine if a law goes against the US Constitution or follows it...not the Congress (the People).

 

For the bolded, do you think once the SCOTUS rules on an issue it can go back years later and hear it again or should the original ruling be the final say?

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5 minutes ago, Opie said:

The Preamble of the US Constitution tells us the perceived role of government.  It sets the guidelines and WE follow it.

The left wants step-by-step instructions on what is "good" and what is "bad" and they rely on the Government to tell them which is which and to make it so.

The purpose of our Federal Government, as found in the Preamble of the Constitution, is to.... "establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our posterity." ...that's it.  Defined...carry on.

The US Constitution is not a "living, breathing document."  It is complete.  We do not change a paragraph, a word, or a punctuation mark when interpreting those words to make it fit OUR preferences.  We leave it to the SCOTUS to interpret the words and  If we want to change it, we take the proper steps listed IN the document itself.

Don't look to the Courts to make laws...leave that to the Congress...."the Peoples' House".   Elect people who believe like you do.  Don not expect the SCOTUS to "make things right".  They will determine if a law goes against the US Constitution or follows it...not the Congress (the People).

 

As discussed in the other thread, the preamble of the constitution, by itself, isn't a good guide of what a government can do. Unless you want a government to be able to do anything it wants. Because those 5 requirements are all encompassing. 

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1 hour ago, JerseyToughGuys said:

is cheap oil a benefit?

yes, but I don't think at the expense of American lives.

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Posted (edited)

From what I can see in these two topics is that liberals want guaranteed outcomes while conservatives want only guaranteed opportunity.

The Declaration of Independence talks about "Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness".  There is nothing guaranteeing that happiness will be found.

The harder you try....the better your chances are

Edited by Opie
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1 hour ago, bostonfred said:

This is great. Tell us what you think conservatism actually is or should be. 

Protecting our communities, our babies from abortion, our children from sex change and our workers from unfair drop in wages due to massive legal/illegal immigration 

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1 minute ago, Teyana said:

Protecting our communities, our babies from abortion, our children from sex change and our workers from unfair drop in wages due to massive legal/illegal immigration 

What does protecting your children from sex change mean?

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1 hour ago, Amused to Death said:

 

1 hour ago, Opie said:

The Preamble of the US Constitution tells us the perceived role of government.  It sets the guidelines and WE follow it.

The left wants step-by-step instructions on what is "good" and what is "bad" and they rely on the Government to tell them which is which and to make it so.

The purpose of our Federal Government, as found in the Preamble of the Constitution, is to.... "establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our posterity." ...that's it.  Defined...carry on.

The US Constitution is not a "living, breathing document."  It is complete.  We do not change a paragraph, a word, or a punctuation mark when interpreting those words to make it fit OUR preferences.  We leave it to the SCOTUS to interpret the words and  If we want to change it, we take the proper steps listed IN the document itself.

Don't look to the Courts to make laws...leave that to the Congress...."the Peoples' House".   Elect people who believe like you do.  Don not expect the SCOTUS to "make things right".  They will determine if a law goes against the US Constitution or follows it...not the Congress (the People).

 

For the bolded, do you think once the SCOTUS rules on an issue it can go back years later and hear it again or should the original ruling be the final say?

 

@Opie, when you have a minute....

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13 minutes ago, Opie said:

From what I can see in these two topics is that liberals want guaranteed outcomes while conservatives want only guaranteed opportunity.

The Declaration of Independence talks about "Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness".  There is nothing guaranteeing that happiness will be found.

The harder you try....the better your chances are

Specifically, what are you looking for?  What are your issues or policies that roll up to these overarching ideas?

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16 minutes ago, Opie said:

From what I can see in these two topics is that liberals want guaranteed outcomes while conservatives want only guaranteed opportunity.

The Declaration of Independence talks about "Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness".  There is nothing guaranteeing that happiness will be found.

The harder you try....the better your chances are

Why do you do this? This is what the conservatives want thread. Just say what you think conservatives want and leave other noise off.

Makes for a much better dialogue 

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24 minutes ago, Teyana said:

Protecting our communities, our babies from abortion, our children from sex change and our workers from unfair drop in wages due to massive legal/illegal immigration 

Is this a typo?

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I posted most of my thoughts in the liberal side of this question.  I don't think anyone thinks of me as a conservative too often, but the one place I think I may line up with conservatives better than liberals is the purpose of taxation.  Now as a liberal I am for taxing at higher levels than conservatives so this isn't about fighting over that.  In the liberal thread I already mentioned flatting out taxes (after doing a bunch of liberal stuff which would counter the regressive nature first) and possibly going to a consumption tax.  I believe that these are more conservative ideas, but not what I am really going for.

When it comes to taxation I think that taxes should be for the sole purpose of paying for the government spending we create.  Deficits matter as borrowing also taxes the economy.   I don't think we should use taxes to pursue other agenda items.  We shouldn't hide spending as tax breaks.   We shouldn't pretend tax cuts lead to spending cuts (usually the opposite happens).   We should not use tax breaks to promote morality.  Maybe we target "sin taxes" to pay for whatever extra government spending happens as a result of usage of alcohol or whatever, but not as a means to promote good behavior.   Sometimes I waiver a bit on such things and am not as consistent of this as a true conservative might be.  And I am kind of calling "tax expenditures" spending.  So maybe my liberal side slips out a bit from time to time, but I still think this is more "conservative" than "liberal".  If not, forgive me.

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Posted (edited)

What do I want different than what we have now?

1.A knowledgeable President on the issues that studies and listens to his advisers.

2. A President with character and integrity who not only talks about Christian values but acts like he has Christian values and actually has compassion for his fellow man on both sides of the border.

3. A President who actually would be concerned about balancing the budget and not just on the backs of entitlements. That may mean not cutting taxes as much as you like and not  going crazy on excessive defense spending.

4. Stop attacking the FBI and Justice department. I have had enough of discrediting Mueller. If you have done nothing wrong you will be fine. And with the Republicans controlled House and Senate you don't have much to worry about if you did some minor illegal stuff ....they got your back.

5 Stop treating dictators and thug leaders better than our allies. Canada is our friend. So is Germany, England etc 

6. And  renegotiate new trade deals when they expire and NO TARIFFS!!! PLEASE

Edited by lazyike
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2 hours ago, Opie said:

because you (and the left) are looking for answers that begin with..."the Government should....."

The real answers begin with ......"the Government should not...."

I agree with you.

Let's start with:

1. The government should not impose tariffs.

2. The government should not waste time and money chasing after undocumented immigrants.

3. The government should not interfere with a woman's right to her own body.

Hows that?

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Posted (edited)

1. Abolish the IRS.  Flat tax or Consumption tax instead.

2. Stop policing the world and nation building

3. Reduce national debt

4. Reform our drug laws

5. Limited government in all aspects of our lives

6. Free market keep the government and all it's regulations out of business.

7. Equal rights of all people matter all the time

8. Protection of 1st and 2nd amendment rights.

Edited by rustycolts
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Politicians who place their constituents before their parties.

Congressmen with spines, who serve their intended purpose rather than treat the President like their boss simply because he belongs to their party.

Honesty

Common sense

Less government.  Do we need a secretary of education, when decisions on education aren't even made as high as the state level most places? 

Where it has to exist, more effective government.  If we have to have an EPA, OK. Maybe I can buy the greater good there.  But let's not half-### it and make it a joke for the sake of having an agency that's going to simply pretend to protect something.

Having value placed on accountability

Which includes valuing the independent role media should play.  Neither the State Media that supplies the President his talking points every morning nor the hit pieces from the other side are helping.  That also doesn't mean media is evil.  They're incredibly important. 

To stop conflating free market and pro-privatization with giving large corporations and the people who run them everything they want and leaving them completely unchecked.  Competition is valuable. Promoting small business is valuable.

Intellectual honesty when it comes to arguments specific to topics like the second amendment, spending, and Christian values. 

For the government to stop taking out $1,000 loans in my name, giving me $170 of it, and expecting me to be grateful for what I received today.

Recognition that Comprehensive Immigration Reform should be neither an obscene phrase nor a political tool.  Building a wall to prevent 1/3 of illegal immigration is asinine. Moreso when we could take the starting price for that wall and distribute it among the homeless population to the tune of about $60k per person.  Likewise, we should be proactively seeking to remove those who are not interested in making positive contributions to society, and part of that includes border enforcement and funneling people into a system that benefits us and them. 

Quit giving a damn what and who people do on their own time, when it doesn't impact you and your life.

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Pretty sure there's a lot more, but now my brain hurts.

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1 minute ago, Bob Sacamano said:

Pretty sure there's a lot more, but now my brain hurts.

I think we are more Libertarian than conservative.

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Oh, yeah, health care that's not broken for damn near everyone.  At this point, I'm not even sure I care anymore if the answer is single payer.  There's not a reason in the world my premiums should have increased at the rate they have while still having so many people who don't have adequate coverage.  What the hell kind of sense does that make?  It's the worst of all worlds.

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5 minutes ago, rustycolts said:

I think we are more Libertarian than conservative.

I was going to comment your list looks like a nice Libertarian agenda.

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45 minutes ago, lazyike said:

What do I want different than what we have now?

1.A knowledgeable President on the issues that studies and listens to his advisers.

2. A President with character and integrity who not only talks about Christian values but acts like he has Christian values and actually has compassion for his fellow man on both sides of the border.

3. A President who actually would be concerned about balancing the budget and not just on the backs of entitlements. That may mean not cutting taxes as much as you like and not  going crazy on excessive defense spending.

4. Stop attacking the FBI and Justice department. I have had enough of discrediting Mueller. If you have done nothing wrong you will be fine. And with the Republicans controlled House and Senate you don't have much to worry about if you did some minor illegal stuff ....they got your back.

5 Stop treating dictators and thug leaders better than our allies. Canada is our friend. So is Germany, England etc 

6. And  renegotiate new trade deals when they expire and NO TARIFFS!!! PLEASE

Oh yeah! Stop attacking the MSM for what you think is fake news because it doesn't suit you. Stop tweeting and spewing your own made up garbage!

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2 hours ago, Opie said:

From what I can see in these two topics is that liberals want guaranteed outcomes while conservatives want only guaranteed opportunity.

The Declaration of Independence talks about "Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness".  There is nothing guaranteeing that happiness will be found.

The harder you try....the better your chances are

Seems liberals want equal opportunity which leads to the outcomes.  And you seemingly like to put words in the mouths of liberals that they aren’t actually saying.

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8 minutes ago, Bob Sacamano said:

Oh, yeah, health care that's not broken for damn near everyone.  At this point, I'm not even sure I care anymore if the answer is single payer.  There's not a reason in the world my premiums should have increased at the rate they have while still having so many people who don't have adequate coverage.  What the hell kind of sense does that make?  It's the worst of all worlds.

I don't know if single payer is the way to go or not.  Something has to be done though.  After cobra runs out for me next August I will be going without insurance for 3 years until Medicare kicks in because it is just so expensive.  I think total free market may be the way to go with no restrictions between states.  Maybe nationwide co-opts.

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1 minute ago, rustycolts said:

I think we are more Libertarian than conservative.

Maybe. I've always described myself as fiscally conservative and socially liberal, which I know people like bigbottom would tell you are incompatible at a basic level. It's great to think everyone should have the same opportunities in life, but it's also Utopian imo. I recognize the need for some regulation and safety nets. And there are some things the central government simply has to provide, while there are other things that would be socially incompatible with allowing to be for-profit.

I spent most of my life casting most of my votes for the Republican party, because I could hold my nose on the social stances I hated in favor of fiscal policies I preferred.  But this version of that party is so far from representing my POV I'm ashamed to admit I've ever cast a vote for them.  They're an abomination.  And that's the point where I think you have to question a lot of the things you thought you believed.  So I'm much less confident in my positions these days.  Which is unsettling.

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@Bob Sacamano You and me both brother.  I became  so disgusted with the Republican party in 2003 that I changed from Republican to No Party Affiliation.  The problem is the Democratic party is no better.  We really don't have much of a choice anymore.  I have been saying for awhile now that we should just put plumbers, electricians, teachers you know regular folks in office.  Get rid of the clowns we have in office now.  The way our political system is set up that will never happen though.

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Posted (edited)

1 hour ago, timschochet said:

I agree with you.

Let's start with:

1. The government should not impose tariffs.

2. The government should not waste time and money chasing after undocumented immigrants.

3. The government should not interfere with a woman's right to her own body.

Hows that?

...then we agree.

1.  I have made it clear that I don't like tariffs.

2.  Instead of a misdemeanor, illegal immigration should be a felony which would impede legal immigration at a later date.  The obvious thing to do is to make punishments that deter illegal behavior...not just an "oh well....better luck next time."

3.  I don't care what a woman does with her body....just don't make me pay for it.

Edited by Opie

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22 minutes ago, lazyike said:

Oh yeah! Stop attacking the MSM for what you think is fake news because it doesn't suit you. Stop tweeting and spewing your own made up garbage!

I don't think you understood the question very well.

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Posted (edited)

Forced migration within the US and trips outside the country for at least 1 week every 15 years of life for citizens.  

Both would help with some of the ignorance.  Which might not be as concentrated as it seems with people whose world view is limited to "that underpass on the other side of the city" and "the time we went to Branson to see what Broadway plays are like", but damn if Facebook doesn't make it seem that way.

Edited by Bob Sacamano
Wine

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35 minutes ago, tonydead said:

I don't think you understood the question very well.

So you are saying I can't say how I want my conservative President  or Representative to conduct themselves?

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I mostly want governing out of things and am generally in favor of smaller functioning units. However this is a very general tendency of preference, not a moral guideline.

I am not concerned with wealth inequality, in and of itself. Certainly it is a strong indicator of afoot treachery, but I find the measure unimportant without context. I do have empathy for many in this world, but my thoughts tend to be centered toward a fixed baseline of some sort, rather than weighted in respect to the means of those in their proximity.

I am strongly in favor of personal freedoms, and want people to be unilaterally free to enjoy hedonistic pleasures to their hearts' content (sex, drugs and rock n roll, baby) but am not oblivious to the notion of aggressively enforced constraints possibly being a necessity in some form.

In most cases, I don't have much of an opinion on matters. That lends itself to the laissez-faire philosophy to which I subscribe, as I generally put the burden of convincement on those that wish to actively enforce something or other.

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2 hours ago, rustycolts said:

1. Abolish the IRS.  Flat tax or Consumption tax instead.

2. Stop policing the world and nation building

3. Reduce national debt

4. Reform our drug laws

5. Limited government in all aspects of our lives

6. Free market keep the government and all it's regulations out of business.

7. Equal rights of all people matter all the time

8. Protection of 1st and 2nd amendment rights.

I like most of this in theory expect #6. That's how rivers get set on fire and low income citizens and their kids get to live miserably and die early.

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17 minutes ago, kwille said:

I like most of this in theory expect #6. That's how rivers get set on fire and low income citizens and their kids get to live miserably and die early.

States could decide by vote what they would allow.  For instance ban fracking like Florida doesn't allow off shore drilling.

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6 hours ago, Don't Noonan said:

1)  I support lower taxes and smaller government.  Money is best spent by the people who earn it, not the government.

2) Support legal immigration only.  Oppose amnesty for those who enter the country illegally.  Secure the borders.

3) Healthcare- support competitive, free market health care system.  Health care should remain privatized.  Socialized medicine results in higher costs and everyone receives the same poor quality health care

4) support free market capitalism, creates more economic growth and jobs and not burdened by excessive government regulation.  Recent socialist movement by the left scares me to death as it would ruin our country.

5) climate change - change in global temperature is natural over long periods of time

6) Welfare - I support helping those that truly need it but helping them become self-reliant, rather than allowing them to remain dependent on the government.

7)  Homeland Security - Support necessary defense spending to destroy our biggest threat - ISIS.

8)  Hate discrimination programs like affirmative action, people should be admitted to schools and hired based on their ability.  Loved Trump ending Obama's stupid policy limiting Asians for scholarships.

9) Ban abortions - life begins at conception

10) Social Security - privatize immediately, I don't trust the governement and can do it better myself.

Yes to the above. One thing this country needs is comphrehensive workforce training. A lot of the educational community in my state balks at this because they think everyone can be a doctor or lawyer. But we need skilled labor. Conservatives in my state are pushing hard for this, liberals not so much. We have two large auto manufacturers and a shipbuilder who can't fill good paying goods because there aren't qualified welders etc. 

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2 hours ago, Bob Sacamano said:

Politicians who place their constituents before their parties.

Congressmen with spines, who serve their intended purpose rather than treat the President like their boss simply because he belongs to their party.

Honesty

Common sense

Less government.  Do we need a secretary of education, when decisions on education aren't even made as high as the state level most places? 

Where it has to exist, more effective government.  If we have to have an EPA, OK. Maybe I can buy the greater good there.  But let's not half-### it and make it a joke for the sake of having an agency that's going to simply pretend to protect something.

Having value placed on accountability

Which includes valuing the independent role media should play.  Neither the State Media that supplies the President his talking points every morning nor the hit pieces from the other side are helping.  That also doesn't mean media is evil.  They're incredibly important. 

To stop conflating free market and pro-privatization with giving large corporations and the people who run them everything they want and leaving them completely unchecked.  Competition is valuable. Promoting small business is valuable.

Intellectual honesty when it comes to arguments specific to topics like the second amendment, spending, and Christian values. 

For the government to stop taking out $1,000 loans in my name, giving me $170 of it, and expecting me to be grateful for what I received today.

Recognition that Comprehensive Immigration Reform should be neither an obscene phrase nor a political tool.  Building a wall to prevent 1/3 of illegal immigration is asinine. Moreso when we could take the starting price for that wall and distribute it among the homeless population to the tune of about $60k per person.  Likewise, we should be proactively seeking to remove those who are not interested in making positive contributions to society, and part of that includes border enforcement and funneling people into a system that benefits us and them. 

Quit giving a damn what and who people do on their own time, when it doesn't impact you and your life.

A-####ing-men.  Preach brother!

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8 minutes ago, Cripster said:

Yes to the above. One thing this country needs is comphrehensive workforce training. A lot of the educational community in my state balks at this because they think everyone can be a doctor or lawyer. But we need skilled labor. Conservatives in my state are pushing hard for this, liberals not so much. We have two large auto manufacturers and a shipbuilder who can't fill good paying goods because there aren't qualified welders etc. 

Can you elaborate?  Liberals aren't for extending education and conservatives are? Is that what you are saying?  

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2 minutes ago, The Commish said:

Can you elaborate?  Liberals aren't for extending education and conservatives are? Is that what you are saying?  

Absolutely not what I am saying. Workforce training is teaching kids in high school skills that are in high demand in the area. In our case, auto manufacturing and ship building. These businesses help fund  these projects as does the state in high schools and community colleges. The teacher union, which block votes democrat generally opposes this as they feel it discourages a 4 year college education and sells kids short. They don't want it in the schools at all. Many of these kids can't be doctors and lawyers. But they can be welders and earn 40k after two years of community college with benefits. But the majority of individuals supporting this is the business community and conservative legislators. Our educational system ranks in the mid 40s. Workforce training can help a lot of kids from lower income families. I can't imagine why some democrats won't  get behind this. They just want to pour more tax dollars into traditional , sub par education. 

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7 hours ago, Don't Noonan said:

3) Healthcare- support competitive, free market health care system.  Health care should remain privatized.  Socialized medicine results in higher costs and everyone receives the same poor quality health care

Then why is our healthcare system the most expensive in the world without the results to match?

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38 minutes ago, rustycolts said:

States could decide by vote what they would allow.  For instance ban fracking like Florida doesn't allow off shore drilling.

I respect that but we've been down that road from the 50s through the late 70s and it was generally a disaster. Left to their own devices,,unchecked markets will take every advantage possible and pollution in the ground, surface, and air doesn't respect administrative boundaries. 

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Please listen to @bostonfred  He's trying to generate legit discussion.

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2 minutes ago, Joe Bryant said:

Please listen to @bostonfred  He's trying to generate legit discussion.

I admit...I started off really snarky and I apologize....but have settled down since after reading some very legit responses..

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