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bostonfred

Liberals, what do you actually want?

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Righties, Fred is doing a good job of drawing out the discussion in the conservative thread, in a very non-confrontational manner. (Though I notice that some of his gentlest inquiries for more detailed information are going unanswered -- that seems to be a continuing trend) And libs are by and largely staying out to give you all some space. Take advantage of it. Pile on with Noonan, who's got a list over there that's the very antithesis of what's being wished for in this thread. (Noonan :lmao:)

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22 minutes ago, IMAX 3D said:

Legalizing marijuana, gambling and prostitution (basically allow consenting adults to do what they want as long as they don’t harm others)

I've long thought along those same lines  and still do on marijuana and gambling but I now see a problematic area with legal prostitution. Would have to have a lot of safeguards in place to prohibit human trafficking and I know some studies have been done which show that in places it is legal human trafficking spikes.

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Some good, on topic posts in here and in the other thread.  Let's try to keep it that way and keep the arguing to a minimum.  This is for naming policies that you, as a liberal, want. If you're not a liberal then there's another thread. If you genuinely feel like you're more moderate, feel free to post in the thread that matches the type of policy you want, even if you don't feel like you're a conservative or liberal.  

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13 minutes ago, roadkill1292 said:

Righties, Fred is doing a good job of drawing out the discussion in the conservative thread, in a very non-confrontational manner. (Though I notice that some of his gentlest inquiries for more detailed information are going unanswered -- that seems to be a continuing trend) And libs are by and largely staying out to give you all some space. Take advantage of it. Pile on with Noonan, who's got a list over there that's the very antithesis of what's being wished for in this thread. (Noonan :lmao:)

who exactly is in the minority here?  last time I checked the GOP controlles the white house, senate, and the house.   acting like conservative values are crazy is being quite obtuse

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Social liberal and fiscal conservative is how I'd describe myself.  So what I'd like more than anything is less partisan politics from both sides.

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How about a candidate in 2020 that is likable and is willing to lean towards the middle on some issues that might help get a few more votes.  I mean all you have to do is say that you'd have strong boarders (you just have to say it, not really do anything) and be reasonable on the other issues and you'd kill Trump.   But who am I kidding we'll keep moving to the far left outraged at everything (like wasting time on Kavanaugh) that we alienate everyone and #@$% up the midterms and have another 4 years of agent orange.

Edited by tonydead
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For starters:

Fair tax

Single Payer Health Care

Legalization of marijuana 

More emphasis on education, science and innovation

 

 

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1 minute ago, tonydead said:

How about a candidate in 2020 that is likable and is willing to lean towards the middle on some issues that might help get a few more votes.  I mean all you have to do is say that you'd have strong boarders (you just have to say it, not really do anything) and be reasonable on the other issues and you'd kill Trump.   But who am I kidding we'll keep moving to the far left outraged at everything (like wasting time on Kavanaugh) that we alienate everyone and #@$% up the midterms and have another years of agent orange.

Who would be an example of a candidate that you think fits this description?  Would you vote for that candidate over Trump? 

BTW Hillary Clinton did all of this except be likable, which is subjective anyway.  Didn't seem to help her at all, in fact it cost her votes.  Surely you can see why left-leaning people would be skeptical of calls for the left to move to the center after the way the right has treated left-leaning centrists like Clinton and Merrick Garland and Chuck Schumer and Claire McCaskill, not to mention right-leaning centrists like Bob Mueller and James Comey.  Yes?

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54 minutes ago, ShamrockPride said:

Maybe I'm out of sync here, is it the general consensus now that infrastructure is a conservative preferred issue? I mean maybe I'm wrong...

What evidence is there that the GOP has any interest in improving infrastructure? They've had a year and a half in control and nothing serious has been proposed. 

The problem is even if people want a project, they don't want to pay for it.

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1 minute ago, Insomniac said:

What evidence is there that the GOP has any interest in improving infrastructure? They've had a year and a half in control and nothing serious has been proposed. 

The problem is even if people want a project, they don't want to pay for it.

This seems like a great conversation for another thread, but please don't do this here.  This isn't about what the current or previous politicians did or said.  I am only asking people to discuss what they themselves want from government.  

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At another board, an opponent of single payer pointed out that supporters often couch their approval in terms of "morality" instead of more pragmatic perspectives like cost and affordability.  I think that's because we supporters kind of take the financial benefits part of it for granted; those seem inarguable to us. In any instance, I think the rise of public support for single payer has caught many by surprise, in part because it's been kind of underreported. This may be one of those issues where government lags the electorate in general and where an entrenched opposition can hold up the works for years -- but, as a few other issues have show, it's definitely doable.

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7 minutes ago, roadkill1292 said:

At another board, an opponent of single payer pointed out that supporters often couch their approval in terms of "morality" instead of more pragmatic perspectives like cost and affordability.  I think that's because we supporters kind of take the financial benefits part of it for granted; those seem inarguable to us. In any instance, I think the rise of public support for single payer has caught many by surprise, in part because it's been kind of underreported. This may be one of those issues where government lags the electorate in general and where an entrenched opposition can hold up the works for years -- but, as a few other issues have show, it's definitely doable.

I think a lot of this has to do with the conservative argument that the government is wasteful and too inefficient to run anything (except for the military of course) so the notion that everyone having healthcare is more efficient and cost-effective gets shutdown immediately. The morality argument is always countered with “nobody who needs healthcare is turned away” which circles back to inefficiencies that end up costing the rest of us more anyways. 

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2 hours ago, bostonfred said:

What do you want from government?  Be as specific as possible, especially about things that aren't current hot topics, or things that have to do with getting and keeping your team in office.  

Consumer Protections - mostly financial, ensure that 2008 doesn't happen again

Highly Regulated industries - banking, epa (these folks will still make billions and millions while protecting average citizens)

Single Payer Healthcare 

Term Limits

Overturn Citizens United

5 year ban of politicians moving into special interests or lobbying.

Immediate moratorium on any privately funded or owned entities as it relates to prisons, immigration detention centers, etc.

Remove corporate welfare tax loopholes (we just cut the tax rate, now pay what you owe)

Legal path to citizenship for everyone currently here

 

<more to follow>

 

 

 

Edited by urbanhack
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Maybe I'm out of place here because I've never really considered myself a liberal. Even so, since liberals are now the most vocal opponents of Donald Trump, I am on their side. So here's what I want, in order of importance:

1. A recognition that man-made climate change is our most serious problem, and a national effort to combat it.

2. A reaffirmation of the United States as leader of the free world, and a commitment to NATO and our other allies such as South Korea, Taiwan, Japan, that we WILL continue to defend them against aggression.

3. Free trade. No tariffs, and re-explore the Trans-Pacific Partnership.

4. A path to citizenship for undocumented immigrants already here. More open immigration allowed, specifically from Latin American countries. Open to taking in refugees from every political hot spot all over the world.

5. An end to institutionalized racism in our justice system against blacks and Latinos.

6. An end to the private sales loophole, background checks for all gun sales, registration of all privately held firearms, a ban on AR-15s and similar weapons.

7. Make homosexuals and transgenders protected classes against discrimination in our society.

8.  Equal pay and rights for women and an emphasis on the "Metoo" movement.

9. Pro small business and business in general. 

That'll do for now. 

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Basically what I want is  “government of the people, by the people, for the people”.  Where "the people" is all the people.   

A government that promotes the general welfare of all the people rather than a few elites will largely take care of domestic tranquility.  So the big three here are

  • the establishment of a BIG for now and maybe more than "basic" in the future if our automation job loss fears are realized.  This replaces almost all non health care related social welfare programs.  Social Security would be a "senior premium" added to the BIG.  The amount would be the same for all citizens and other legal residents, but most of that amount for dependent children would be deferred as a college (or trade school) fund.  For those where further education is not a good option it would become available at some age.
  • Single payer - We can let the private insurance companies prove they can offer more quality and still make profits for the same amount as the government option as long as that isn't from cherry picking populations if we must, but move all premiums into taxation.
  • Education was addressed in the BIG discussion

To pay for it all we should flatten taxes.   I'm also pretty certain that taxing income becomes problematic if the automation job loss happens so maybe seriously consider taxing consumption, but we would need to be more honest than the "pie in sky" FairTax claims.   Or maybe there is a good way to tax automation itself?  But I think all of the ideas I can think of would act to thwart progress.  Lets not be in the business of propping up lost causes.

Which brings us to "provide for the common defense".   While most don't see it this way the greatest threat to  our nation is ignoring climate change.  We need to address producing an ever increasing amount of energy without adding more greenhouse gases (and other pollutants) to our environment.  Government should have driven this process thirty yeas ago.  It must at the very least get out of the way now.

We also need to rebuild, or more accurately re-imagine our infrastructure.   By re-imagine I mean such things as roads that recharge batteries and are designed for driverless cars only.  Modern power grids.  Cities and towns designed with walking around in mind.  etc.

"Secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our posterity"  means that we embrace the "On Liberty" passage that more or less states that we are free to do things, even immoral things that harm ourselves as long as we don't harm others.  This means the elimination of "victim less crime" prohibitions.  Sure there are reasons to fear that society as a whole might have issues to face, but that harm can be dealt with more easily than the harms of prohibition.  Ultimately this extends to not prohibiting stuff for reasons of morality.

Something with a victim is abortion.  We should do what we can to minimize the number of abortions performed.  Prohibition, based on various studies won't do that.  By building a strong social safety net with the BIG and single payer we addressed one means to lower the abortion rate.  We also need to "get honest" about sex.  Especially teen sex.  "Just say no" is not a honest approach.  In fact it is counterproductive.   And of course we need contraception to be universally available with people knowledgeable on how to use it.  Lets have some of the lowest rather than one of highest abortion rates in the world.  We do that by rejecting the social conservative baggage that usually comes along with the Pro Life movement.  

What have I forgotten?  Diplomacy over military out sized might?  Power being shared rather than a hierarchy.  Treating everyone with dignity and respect and not carving out the blessing of liberty for the few that look like me.  I'm sure I'll be kicking myself later for forgetting something important, but this is already too long.

 

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4 minutes ago, Bottomfeeder Sports said:

Basically what I want is  “government of the people, by the people, for the people”.  Where "the people" is all the people.   

A government that promotes the general welfare of all the people rather than a few elites will largely take care of domestic tranquility.  So the big three here are

  • the establishment of a BIG for now and maybe more than "basic" in the future if our automation job loss fears are realized.  This replaces almost all non health care related social welfare programs.  Social Security would be a "senior premium" added to the BIG.  The amount would be the same for all citizens and other legal residents, but most of that amount for dependent children would be deferred as a college (or trade school) fund.  For those where further education is not a good option it would become available at some age.
  • Single payer - We can let the private insurance companies prove they can offer more quality and still make profits for the same amount as the government option as long as that isn't from cherry picking populations if we must, but move all premiums into taxation.
  • Education was addressed in the BIG discussion

To pay for it all we should flatten taxes.   I'm also pretty certain that taxing income becomes problematic if the automation job loss happens so maybe seriously consider taxing consumption, but we would need to be more honest than the "pie in sky" FairTax claims.   Or maybe there is a good way to tax automation itself?  But I think all of the ideas I can think of would act to thwart progress.  Lets not be in the business of propping up lost causes.

Which brings us to "provide for the common defense".   While most don't see it this way the greatest threat to  our nation is ignoring climate change.  We need to address producing an ever increasing amount of energy without adding more greenhouse gases (and other pollutants) to our environment.  Government should have driven this process thirty yeas ago.  It must at the very least get out of the way now.

We also need to rebuild, or more accurately re-imagine our infrastructure.   By re-imagine I mean such things as roads that recharge batteries and are designed for driverless cars only.  Modern power grids.  Cities and towns designed with walking around in mind.  etc.

"Secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our posterity"  means that we embrace the "On Liberty" passage that more or less states that we are free to do things, even immoral things that harm ourselves as long as we don't harm others.  This means the elimination of "victim less crime" prohibitions.  Sure there are reasons to fear that society as a whole might have issues to face, but that harm can be dealt with more easily than the harms of prohibition.  Ultimately this extends to not prohibiting stuff for reasons of morality.

Something with a victim is abortion.  We should do what we can to minimize the number of abortions performed.  Prohibition, based on various studies won't do that.  By building a strong social safety net with the BIG and single payer we addressed one means to lower the abortion rate.  We also need to "get honest" about sex.  Especially teen sex.  "Just say no" is not a honest approach.  In fact it is counterproductive.   And of course we need contraception to be universally available with people knowledgeable on how to use it.  Lets have some of the lowest rather than one of highest abortion rates in the world.  We do that by rejecting the social conservative baggage that usually comes along with the Pro Life movement.  

What have I forgotten?  Diplomacy over military out sized might?  Power being shared rather than a hierarchy.  Treating everyone with dignity and respect and not carving out the blessing of liberty for the few that look like me.  I'm sure I'll be kicking myself later for forgetting something important, but this is already too long.

 

Abortion rates have continued to decrease with availability of birth control.   Number of abortions and abortion rates have both been falling since 2005.  Making birth control more difficult and cutting health benefits and education will result in an increase in abortions, which is why the GOP "pro-life" agenda is such a failed policy.

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6 minutes ago, -fish- said:

Abortion rates have continued to decrease with availability of birth control.   Number of abortions and abortion rates have both been falling since 2005.  Making birth control more difficult and cutting health benefits and education will result in an increase in abortions, which is why the GOP "pro-life" agenda is such a failed policy.

:goodposting:  No one "likes" abortion and since it will never be eliminated the next best option is to lower the occurrence.  GOP policy goes against this.  Educate and make birth control and family planning accessible for all.  And remove the BS argument that "my religion is against birth control".  Fine, don't use it but don't take it away from those who wish to use it.  And if you work FOR the government then follow government rules.

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What if we have a hard time considering ourselves either at this point in history? 

I feel like a pretty good start would be for our political parties to represent the best interests of their constituents first rather than placing the best interests of their political party first. 

You're a representative of the people who happens to be an R or a D.  You are not an R or a D who happens to represent people. 

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4 minutes ago, Bob Sacamano said:

What if we have a hard time considering ourselves either at this point in history? 

I feel like a pretty good start would be for our political parties to represent the best interests of their constituents first rather than placing the best interests of their political party first. 

You're a representative of the people who happens to be an R or a D.  You are not an R or a D who happens to represent people. 

Well hello Bob.  Happy to show you around progressive HQ if you'd like.  PM me to schedule an appointment.

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3 minutes ago, urbanhack said:

Well hello Bob.  Happy to show you around progressive HQ if you'd like.  PM me to schedule an appointment.

I find this all a bit overwhelming and confusing. 

Can we just take it slow?

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45 minutes ago, -fish- said:

Abortion rates have continued to decrease with availability of birth control.   Number of abortions and abortion rates have both been falling since 2005.  Making birth control more difficult and cutting health benefits and education will result in an increase in abortions, which is why the GOP "pro-life" agenda is such a failed policy.

Have all my likes.

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7 minutes ago, Bob Sacamano said:

I find this all a bit overwhelming and confusing. 

Can we just take it slow?

Watch out, Hack can be a bit handsy 

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Free abortions for everyone, especially those that can't afford children.  Impose penalties for families that have more than two children, not benefits.

Edited by tonydead

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2 minutes ago, tonydead said:

Free abortions for everyone, especially those that can't afford children.  Impose penalties for families that have more than two children.

Are you against birth control or the morning after pill?  How about sex education in public schools?

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I think my #1 thing is easy access to voting.  Automatic voter registration, make Election Day a holiday (or move it to a weekend), simpler processes for voting by mail or early voting booths, dump all voting restriction efforts like requiring IDs and unequal distribution of voting booths across precincts.  It’s so disgusting to me that voting rights has become a partisan issue, but here we are.

Then I’d remove laws intended to make votes count as little as possible.  So that’s banning partisan gerrymandering, elimination of the Electoral College, expand the House of Representatives to equalize district sizes as much as possible.  Also would like to see expansion of Ranked Choice and other Instant Runoff balloting so we can get a clearer idea of much support there really is for third parties and reduce the amount of defensive voting.

I think getting those changes made would increase voter turnout and encourage participation in the process.  Once those were in place I think a lot of the other things I want will happen.

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I'd like us all to stop thinking "oh, there's a problem?  I bet guns can fix it!"

I don't have a problem with guns in general.  I don't want to ban them all or anything. I like them in some cases.  But, like, really?

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6 minutes ago, Amused to Death said:

Are you against birth control or the morning after pill?  How about sex education in public schools?

They should put birth control in the vending machines at every high school.  After teaching them how to use it, of course.

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13 minutes ago, Bruce Dickinson said:

I think my #1 thing is easy access to voting.  Automatic voter registration, make Election Day a holiday (or move it to a weekend), simpler processes for voting by mail or early voting booths, dump all voting restriction efforts like requiring IDs and unequal distribution of voting booths across precincts.  It’s so disgusting to me that voting rights has become a partisan issue, but here we are.

Then I’d remove laws intended to make votes count as little as possible.  So that’s banning partisan gerrymandering, elimination of the Electoral College, expand the House of Representatives to equalize district sizes as much as possible.  Also would like to see expansion of Ranked Choice and other Instant Runoff balloting so we can get a clearer idea of much support there really is for third parties and reduce the amount of defensive voting.

I think getting those changes made would increase voter turnout and encourage participation in the process.  Once those were in place I think a lot of the other things I want will happen.

Moving it to a weekend might help if you make it weekend-long. A holiday won't help a lot of the people you want to help, though. Service industries aren't closing for election day.

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I need to add: I would have been very satisfied with a taco truck on every corner. I was promised this, but unfortunately Hillary Clinton was not elected.

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1- Jet Packs. Where are they!!

2- Protect children from sex change.

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39 minutes ago, timschochet said:

I need to add: I would have been very satisfied with a taco truck on every corner. I was promised this, but unfortunately Hillary Clinton was not elected.

You have that covered with #4.

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5 hours ago, Opie said:

Someone....Anyone....NOT with the last name of Trump......easy enough?

Oh...and that someone MUST have a "D" next to his name.

 

Sounds reasonable to me.

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Less defense, military spending

Huge tax breaks / incentives to encourage investment in alternative energy 

Increase taxes on uber wealthy 

Move funding to public parks, public radio and TV, NEA. 

Sane gun laws

Super generic but it takes someone smarter than me to figure out - have to figure out to fix wealth inequality. There’s going to be rich and poor but it seems like it’s getting way out of wack right now. 

 

 

 

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7 hours ago, -fish- said:

1.   Investment in renewable energy.   Commitment to end use of coal.   Significant goals regarding lowering dependence on fossil fuels and foreign oil.

2.   Sound environmental policies including a recognition of climate change and either reengaging in the Paris accord or unilateral commitment to something stronger.

3.  Term limits for house and senate.

4.   Campaign finance reform.

5.   Fair, progressive tax schedule.

6.   Health care, including single-payer.

7.   Renegotiate cost of drugs paid for through medicare.

8.   Establish national gun registry and allow searchable databases of weapons.

9.   Limit or prevent borrowing against Social Security

 

Replace #3 with criminal justice reform and this is a great start. For-profit prisons are absolutely insane, though #4 would go a ways to solving that. The fact that you can be thrown in jail for months or years before you ever go to trial, losing your job and possibly your family in the process, is so, so wrong and it happens every day in this country.

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8 hours ago, Opie said:

Someone....Anyone....NOT with the last name of Trump......easy enough?

Oh...and that someone MUST have a "D" next to his name.

Just how hard is this to understand?

Now...gimme, gimme, gimme or it will be ARMAGEDDON...the END of TIMES!

Literally....we ALL WILL DIE if this does not happen.

You're not liberal. Please let liberal minded folks answer. 

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2 hours ago, Don't Noonan said:

If you receive welfare you must get snipped

If you get a mortgage deduction off your taxes you must get drug tested.

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6 hours ago, Bob Sacamano said:

Moving it to a weekend might help if you make it weekend-long. A holiday won't help a lot of the people you want to help, though. Service industries aren't closing for election day.

If there was a law stating businesses that stayed open on Elections Day had their tax rate automatically elevated to 500% of revenues and ineligible to take any deductions, do you think they would close on Election Day?

Obviously the question is hyperbole.  Its purpose is to show most policy details that don’t seem feasible are a question of political will.  We’re fortunate enough to live in by far the wealthiest democracy in the history of the form of government.  Just about any policy goal or initiative is within our reach.  It’s a matter of political will. 

But that’s probably off-topic.  The purpose of this thread seems to be desired goals and outcomes.  Details come later.

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I don't know if it's a liberal issue or not but I heard an interesting discussion this morning about term limits for Supreme Court justices that was really intriguing. Would require a constitutional amendment but a regular rotation of modern ideas into those spots may be better than 40 year terms and 90-year-old judges. Because I'm that guy, I have ideas.

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15 hours ago, timschochet said:

9. Pro small business and business in general. 

I am curious what this means.

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34 minutes ago, toshiba said:

I am curious what this means.

Certain Democratic politicians, like Hillary and Corey Booker, consistently emphasize programs and measures designed to help small business and business in general- for instance, Hillary proposed improving Chicago’s transport infrastructure to cut the time of freight traveling through that city by about 400%. This is the sort of pragmatic investment by the federal government that I would like to see more of. 

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To start with a sane American President. 

We've already tried a senile one and that was plenty scary.

Please, pretty please, elect someone sane next time

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9 minutes ago, timschochet said:

Certain Democratic politicians, like Hillary and Corey Booker, consistently emphasize programs and measures designed to help small business and business in general- for instance, Hillary proposed improving Chicago’s transport infrastructure to cut the time of freight traveling through that city by about 400%. This is the sort of pragmatic investment by the federal government that I would like to see more of. 

Thanks, the way it was worded left it very open ended. 

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11 minutes ago, timschochet said:

Certain Democratic politicians, like Hillary and Corey Booker, consistently emphasize programs and measures designed to help small business and business in general- for instance, Hillary proposed improving Chicago’s transport infrastructure to cut the time of freight traveling through that city by about 400%. This is the sort of pragmatic investment by the federal government that I would like to see more of. 

So, in the future a one hour journey will end three hours befor it began?

That's nice!

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Most of the stuff I would say has already been mentioned.  One thing I haven't seen mentioned is that I would like our government to substantially increase the amount of humanitarian foreign aid we provide and substantially decrease our military might.  I want the world to view the U.S. as charitable, not as a bully.

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17 hours ago, Godsbrother said:

For starters:

Fair tax

Single Payer Health Care

Legalization of marijuana 

More emphasis on education, science and innovation

 

 

This is my favorite list of this thread. Would love to see all of these things done. 

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26 minutes ago, timschochet said:

Certain Democratic politicians, like Hillary and Corey Booker, consistently emphasize programs and measures designed to help small business and business in general- for instance, Hillary proposed improving Chicago’s transport infrastructure to cut the time of freight traveling through that city by about 400%. This is the sort of pragmatic investment by the federal government that I would like to see more of. 

Booker 2020!

In fact, that's what I'd like to add. That on January 21, 2021 (or whatever), Corey Booker is inaugurated as the new President.

Edited by whoknew
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