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bostonfred

Liberals, what do you actually want?

141 posts in this topic

Legalizing marijuana, gambling and prostitution (basically allow consenting adults to do what they want as long as they don’t harm others)

getting religion out of political decision making

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Posted (edited)

2 minutes ago, Opie said:

The OP did not ask to recite the US Constitution...it asked about my perceived role of the Government....which was covered in the Preamble...not the Body.

I think the problem you have is those are EXTREMELY broad terms. 

  • establish Justice
  • insure domestic Tranquility
  • provide for the common defense
  • promote the general Welfare
  • secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our posterity

That incorporates just about anything any government could want to do.

Edited by whoknew

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Posted (edited)

1 minute ago, whoknew said:

I think the problem you have is those are EXTREMELY broad terms. 

  • stablish Justice
  • insure domestic Tranquility
  • provide for the common defense
  • promote the general Welfare
  • secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our posterity

That incorporates just about anything any government could want to do.

Jeez....they were meant to be broad.

The Government was never intended to run and be involved in the specifics our every -day lives.

What happens is up to US...not the Government.

Edited by Opie
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Just now, ShamrockPride said:

The religion thing is bizarre. I completely agree. But at the same time on paper, yeah we're religion free, but we've always been a Christian minded/led nation since day 1.

Utopia vs reality kind of thing I guess. I'm not sure how that kind of thing is fixed.

By my statement I mean we can not - must not - teach intelligent design in public schools.  The bible must not be a text book.  Our laws must not be based on what someone's book of religion dictates.  People are free to live by whatever religious tenents they wish, but our laws must not be based on one single book.

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Just now, Opie said:

Jeez....they were meant to be broad.

The Government was never intended to run and be involved in our every -day lives.

What happens is up to US...not the Government.

My point - as I'm guessing you know - is that just about any law that any government could enact would fall under one of those categories. So saying the government can only do one of those things doesn't limit it at all.

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Posted (edited)

The US Constitution is ALL ABOUT limiting the role of the Government in our lives.

Exactly how many times does it say...."The Government Shat NOT...."

Edited by Opie

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Why do we have conservatives in here telling us what we should want instead of taking advantage of the thread fred thoughtfully provided for them to have their own say?

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1 minute ago, Opie said:

The US Constitution is ALL ABOUT limiting the role of the Government.

Exactly how many times does it say...."The Government Shat NOT...."

Why is Trump expanding the role of government?

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Posted (edited)

1 minute ago, roadkill1292 said:

Why do we have conservatives in here telling us what we should want instead of taking advantage of the thread fred thoughtfully provided for them to have their own say?

Because it is lonely there.  :tumbleweed:

Edited by Opie

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3 minutes ago, Opie said:

Because it is lonely there.  :tumbleweed:

Want me to post a bunch of cheap shots and unfair garbage in that thread like you did in your first post here?

 

 

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Righties, Fred is doing a good job of drawing out the discussion in the conservative thread, in a very non-confrontational manner. (Though I notice that some of his gentlest inquiries for more detailed information are going unanswered -- that seems to be a continuing trend) And libs are by and largely staying out to give you all some space. Take advantage of it. Pile on with Noonan, who's got a list over there that's the very antithesis of what's being wished for in this thread. (Noonan :lmao:)

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22 minutes ago, IMAX 3D said:

Legalizing marijuana, gambling and prostitution (basically allow consenting adults to do what they want as long as they don’t harm others)

I've long thought along those same lines  and still do on marijuana and gambling but I now see a problematic area with legal prostitution. Would have to have a lot of safeguards in place to prohibit human trafficking and I know some studies have been done which show that in places it is legal human trafficking spikes.

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Some good, on topic posts in here and in the other thread.  Let's try to keep it that way and keep the arguing to a minimum.  This is for naming policies that you, as a liberal, want. If you're not a liberal then there's another thread. If you genuinely feel like you're more moderate, feel free to post in the thread that matches the type of policy you want, even if you don't feel like you're a conservative or liberal.  

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13 minutes ago, roadkill1292 said:

Righties, Fred is doing a good job of drawing out the discussion in the conservative thread, in a very non-confrontational manner. (Though I notice that some of his gentlest inquiries for more detailed information are going unanswered -- that seems to be a continuing trend) And libs are by and largely staying out to give you all some space. Take advantage of it. Pile on with Noonan, who's got a list over there that's the very antithesis of what's being wished for in this thread. (Noonan :lmao:)

who exactly is in the minority here?  last time I checked the GOP controlles the white house, senate, and the house.   acting like conservative values are crazy is being quite obtuse

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Social liberal and fiscal conservative is how I'd describe myself.  So what I'd like more than anything is less partisan politics from both sides.

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Posted (edited)

How about a candidate in 2020 that is likable and is willing to lean towards the middle on some issues that might help get a few more votes.  I mean all you have to do is say that you'd have strong boarders (you just have to say it, not really do anything) and be reasonable on the other issues and you'd kill Trump.   But who am I kidding we'll keep moving to the far left outraged at everything (like wasting time on Kavanaugh) that we alienate everyone and #@$% up the midterms and have another 4 years of agent orange.

Edited by tonydead
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For starters:

Fair tax

Single Payer Health Care

Legalization of marijuana 

More emphasis on education, science and innovation

 

 

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1 minute ago, tonydead said:

How about a candidate in 2020 that is likable and is willing to lean towards the middle on some issues that might help get a few more votes.  I mean all you have to do is say that you'd have strong boarders (you just have to say it, not really do anything) and be reasonable on the other issues and you'd kill Trump.   But who am I kidding we'll keep moving to the far left outraged at everything (like wasting time on Kavanaugh) that we alienate everyone and #@$% up the midterms and have another years of agent orange.

Who would be an example of a candidate that you think fits this description?  Would you vote for that candidate over Trump? 

BTW Hillary Clinton did all of this except be likable, which is subjective anyway.  Didn't seem to help her at all, in fact it cost her votes.  Surely you can see why left-leaning people would be skeptical of calls for the left to move to the center after the way the right has treated left-leaning centrists like Clinton and Merrick Garland and Chuck Schumer and Claire McCaskill, not to mention right-leaning centrists like Bob Mueller and James Comey.  Yes?

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54 minutes ago, ShamrockPride said:

Maybe I'm out of sync here, is it the general consensus now that infrastructure is a conservative preferred issue? I mean maybe I'm wrong...

What evidence is there that the GOP has any interest in improving infrastructure? They've had a year and a half in control and nothing serious has been proposed. 

The problem is even if people want a project, they don't want to pay for it.

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1 minute ago, Insomniac said:

What evidence is there that the GOP has any interest in improving infrastructure? They've had a year and a half in control and nothing serious has been proposed. 

The problem is even if people want a project, they don't want to pay for it.

This seems like a great conversation for another thread, but please don't do this here.  This isn't about what the current or previous politicians did or said.  I am only asking people to discuss what they themselves want from government.  

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At another board, an opponent of single payer pointed out that supporters often couch their approval in terms of "morality" instead of more pragmatic perspectives like cost and affordability.  I think that's because we supporters kind of take the financial benefits part of it for granted; those seem inarguable to us. In any instance, I think the rise of public support for single payer has caught many by surprise, in part because it's been kind of underreported. This may be one of those issues where government lags the electorate in general and where an entrenched opposition can hold up the works for years -- but, as a few other issues have show, it's definitely doable.

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7 minutes ago, roadkill1292 said:

At another board, an opponent of single payer pointed out that supporters often couch their approval in terms of "morality" instead of more pragmatic perspectives like cost and affordability.  I think that's because we supporters kind of take the financial benefits part of it for granted; those seem inarguable to us. In any instance, I think the rise of public support for single payer has caught many by surprise, in part because it's been kind of underreported. This may be one of those issues where government lags the electorate in general and where an entrenched opposition can hold up the works for years -- but, as a few other issues have show, it's definitely doable.

I think a lot of this has to do with the conservative argument that the government is wasteful and too inefficient to run anything (except for the military of course) so the notion that everyone having healthcare is more efficient and cost-effective gets shutdown immediately. The morality argument is always countered with “nobody who needs healthcare is turned away” which circles back to inefficiencies that end up costing the rest of us more anyways. 

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Posted (edited)

2 hours ago, bostonfred said:

What do you want from government?  Be as specific as possible, especially about things that aren't current hot topics, or things that have to do with getting and keeping your team in office.  

Consumer Protections - mostly financial, ensure that 2008 doesn't happen again

Highly Regulated industries - banking, epa (these folks will still make billions and millions while protecting average citizens)

Single Payer Healthcare 

Term Limits

Overturn Citizens United

5 year ban of politicians moving into special interests or lobbying.

Immediate moratorium on any privately funded or owned entities as it relates to prisons, immigration detention centers, etc.

Remove corporate welfare tax loopholes (we just cut the tax rate, now pay what you owe)

Legal path to citizenship for everyone currently here

 

<more to follow>

 

 

 

Edited by urbanhack
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Maybe I'm out of place here because I've never really considered myself a liberal. Even so, since liberals are now the most vocal opponents of Donald Trump, I am on their side. So here's what I want, in order of importance:

1. A recognition that man-made climate change is our most serious problem, and a national effort to combat it.

2. A reaffirmation of the United States as leader of the free world, and a commitment to NATO and our other allies such as South Korea, Taiwan, Japan, that we WILL continue to defend them against aggression.

3. Free trade. No tariffs, and re-explore the Trans-Pacific Partnership.

4. A path to citizenship for undocumented immigrants already here. More open immigration allowed, specifically from Latin American countries. Open to taking in refugees from every political hot spot all over the world.

5. An end to institutionalized racism in our justice system against blacks and Latinos.

6. An end to the private sales loophole, background checks for all gun sales, registration of all privately held firearms, a ban on AR-15s and similar weapons.

7. Make homosexuals and transgenders protected classes against discrimination in our society.

8.  Equal pay and rights for women and an emphasis on the "Metoo" movement.

9. Pro small business and business in general. 

That'll do for now. 

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Basically what I want is  “government of the people, by the people, for the people”.  Where "the people" is all the people.   

A government that promotes the general welfare of all the people rather than a few elites will largely take care of domestic tranquility.  So the big three here are

  • the establishment of a BIG for now and maybe more than "basic" in the future if our automation job loss fears are realized.  This replaces almost all non health care related social welfare programs.  Social Security would be a "senior premium" added to the BIG.  The amount would be the same for all citizens and other legal residents, but most of that amount for dependent children would be deferred as a college (or trade school) fund.  For those where further education is not a good option it would become available at some age.
  • Single payer - We can let the private insurance companies prove they can offer more quality and still make profits for the same amount as the government option as long as that isn't from cherry picking populations if we must, but move all premiums into taxation.
  • Education was addressed in the BIG discussion

To pay for it all we should flatten taxes.   I'm also pretty certain that taxing income becomes problematic if the automation job loss happens so maybe seriously consider taxing consumption, but we would need to be more honest than the "pie in sky" FairTax claims.   Or maybe there is a good way to tax automation itself?  But I think all of the ideas I can think of would act to thwart progress.  Lets not be in the business of propping up lost causes.

Which brings us to "provide for the common defense".   While most don't see it this way the greatest threat to  our nation is ignoring climate change.  We need to address producing an ever increasing amount of energy without adding more greenhouse gases (and other pollutants) to our environment.  Government should have driven this process thirty yeas ago.  It must at the very least get out of the way now.

We also need to rebuild, or more accurately re-imagine our infrastructure.   By re-imagine I mean such things as roads that recharge batteries and are designed for driverless cars only.  Modern power grids.  Cities and towns designed with walking around in mind.  etc.

"Secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our posterity"  means that we embrace the "On Liberty" passage that more or less states that we are free to do things, even immoral things that harm ourselves as long as we don't harm others.  This means the elimination of "victim less crime" prohibitions.  Sure there are reasons to fear that society as a whole might have issues to face, but that harm can be dealt with more easily than the harms of prohibition.  Ultimately this extends to not prohibiting stuff for reasons of morality.

Something with a victim is abortion.  We should do what we can to minimize the number of abortions performed.  Prohibition, based on various studies won't do that.  By building a strong social safety net with the BIG and single payer we addressed one means to lower the abortion rate.  We also need to "get honest" about sex.  Especially teen sex.  "Just say no" is not a honest approach.  In fact it is counterproductive.   And of course we need contraception to be universally available with people knowledgeable on how to use it.  Lets have some of the lowest rather than one of highest abortion rates in the world.  We do that by rejecting the social conservative baggage that usually comes along with the Pro Life movement.  

What have I forgotten?  Diplomacy over military out sized might?  Power being shared rather than a hierarchy.  Treating everyone with dignity and respect and not carving out the blessing of liberty for the few that look like me.  I'm sure I'll be kicking myself later for forgetting something important, but this is already too long.

 

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4 minutes ago, Bottomfeeder Sports said:

Basically what I want is  “government of the people, by the people, for the people”.  Where "the people" is all the people.   

A government that promotes the general welfare of all the people rather than a few elites will largely take care of domestic tranquility.  So the big three here are

  • the establishment of a BIG for now and maybe more than "basic" in the future if our automation job loss fears are realized.  This replaces almost all non health care related social welfare programs.  Social Security would be a "senior premium" added to the BIG.  The amount would be the same for all citizens and other legal residents, but most of that amount for dependent children would be deferred as a college (or trade school) fund.  For those where further education is not a good option it would become available at some age.
  • Single payer - We can let the private insurance companies prove they can offer more quality and still make profits for the same amount as the government option as long as that isn't from cherry picking populations if we must, but move all premiums into taxation.
  • Education was addressed in the BIG discussion

To pay for it all we should flatten taxes.   I'm also pretty certain that taxing income becomes problematic if the automation job loss happens so maybe seriously consider taxing consumption, but we would need to be more honest than the "pie in sky" FairTax claims.   Or maybe there is a good way to tax automation itself?  But I think all of the ideas I can think of would act to thwart progress.  Lets not be in the business of propping up lost causes.

Which brings us to "provide for the common defense".   While most don't see it this way the greatest threat to  our nation is ignoring climate change.  We need to address producing an ever increasing amount of energy without adding more greenhouse gases (and other pollutants) to our environment.  Government should have driven this process thirty yeas ago.  It must at the very least get out of the way now.

We also need to rebuild, or more accurately re-imagine our infrastructure.   By re-imagine I mean such things as roads that recharge batteries and are designed for driverless cars only.  Modern power grids.  Cities and towns designed with walking around in mind.  etc.

"Secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our posterity"  means that we embrace the "On Liberty" passage that more or less states that we are free to do things, even immoral things that harm ourselves as long as we don't harm others.  This means the elimination of "victim less crime" prohibitions.  Sure there are reasons to fear that society as a whole might have issues to face, but that harm can be dealt with more easily than the harms of prohibition.  Ultimately this extends to not prohibiting stuff for reasons of morality.

Something with a victim is abortion.  We should do what we can to minimize the number of abortions performed.  Prohibition, based on various studies won't do that.  By building a strong social safety net with the BIG and single payer we addressed one means to lower the abortion rate.  We also need to "get honest" about sex.  Especially teen sex.  "Just say no" is not a honest approach.  In fact it is counterproductive.   And of course we need contraception to be universally available with people knowledgeable on how to use it.  Lets have some of the lowest rather than one of highest abortion rates in the world.  We do that by rejecting the social conservative baggage that usually comes along with the Pro Life movement.  

What have I forgotten?  Diplomacy over military out sized might?  Power being shared rather than a hierarchy.  Treating everyone with dignity and respect and not carving out the blessing of liberty for the few that look like me.  I'm sure I'll be kicking myself later for forgetting something important, but this is already too long.

 

Abortion rates have continued to decrease with availability of birth control.   Number of abortions and abortion rates have both been falling since 2005.  Making birth control more difficult and cutting health benefits and education will result in an increase in abortions, which is why the GOP "pro-life" agenda is such a failed policy.

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6 minutes ago, -fish- said:

Abortion rates have continued to decrease with availability of birth control.   Number of abortions and abortion rates have both been falling since 2005.  Making birth control more difficult and cutting health benefits and education will result in an increase in abortions, which is why the GOP "pro-life" agenda is such a failed policy.

:goodposting:  No one "likes" abortion and since it will never be eliminated the next best option is to lower the occurrence.  GOP policy goes against this.  Educate and make birth control and family planning accessible for all.  And remove the BS argument that "my religion is against birth control".  Fine, don't use it but don't take it away from those who wish to use it.  And if you work FOR the government then follow government rules.

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What if we have a hard time considering ourselves either at this point in history? 

I feel like a pretty good start would be for our political parties to represent the best interests of their constituents first rather than placing the best interests of their political party first. 

You're a representative of the people who happens to be an R or a D.  You are not an R or a D who happens to represent people. 

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4 minutes ago, Bob Sacamano said:

What if we have a hard time considering ourselves either at this point in history? 

I feel like a pretty good start would be for our political parties to represent the best interests of their constituents first rather than placing the best interests of their political party first. 

You're a representative of the people who happens to be an R or a D.  You are not an R or a D who happens to represent people. 

Well hello Bob.  Happy to show you around progressive HQ if you'd like.  PM me to schedule an appointment.

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3 minutes ago, urbanhack said:

Well hello Bob.  Happy to show you around progressive HQ if you'd like.  PM me to schedule an appointment.

I find this all a bit overwhelming and confusing. 

Can we just take it slow?

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Nachos.

I could really go for some nachos.

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45 minutes ago, -fish- said:

Abortion rates have continued to decrease with availability of birth control.   Number of abortions and abortion rates have both been falling since 2005.  Making birth control more difficult and cutting health benefits and education will result in an increase in abortions, which is why the GOP "pro-life" agenda is such a failed policy.

Have all my likes.

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7 minutes ago, Bob Sacamano said:

I find this all a bit overwhelming and confusing. 

Can we just take it slow?

Watch out, Hack can be a bit handsy 

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Posted (edited)

Free abortions for everyone, especially those that can't afford children.  Impose penalties for families that have more than two children, not benefits.

Edited by tonydead

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2 minutes ago, tonydead said:

Free abortions for everyone, especially those that can't afford children.  Impose penalties for families that have more than two children.

Are you against birth control or the morning after pill?  How about sex education in public schools?

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I think my #1 thing is easy access to voting.  Automatic voter registration, make Election Day a holiday (or move it to a weekend), simpler processes for voting by mail or early voting booths, dump all voting restriction efforts like requiring IDs and unequal distribution of voting booths across precincts.  It’s so disgusting to me that voting rights has become a partisan issue, but here we are.

Then I’d remove laws intended to make votes count as little as possible.  So that’s banning partisan gerrymandering, elimination of the Electoral College, expand the House of Representatives to equalize district sizes as much as possible.  Also would like to see expansion of Ranked Choice and other Instant Runoff balloting so we can get a clearer idea of much support there really is for third parties and reduce the amount of defensive voting.

I think getting those changes made would increase voter turnout and encourage participation in the process.  Once those were in place I think a lot of the other things I want will happen.

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I'd like us all to stop thinking "oh, there's a problem?  I bet guns can fix it!"

I don't have a problem with guns in general.  I don't want to ban them all or anything. I like them in some cases.  But, like, really?

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6 minutes ago, Amused to Death said:

Are you against birth control or the morning after pill?  How about sex education in public schools?

They should put birth control in the vending machines at every high school.  After teaching them how to use it, of course.

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13 minutes ago, Bruce Dickinson said:

I think my #1 thing is easy access to voting.  Automatic voter registration, make Election Day a holiday (or move it to a weekend), simpler processes for voting by mail or early voting booths, dump all voting restriction efforts like requiring IDs and unequal distribution of voting booths across precincts.  It’s so disgusting to me that voting rights has become a partisan issue, but here we are.

Then I’d remove laws intended to make votes count as little as possible.  So that’s banning partisan gerrymandering, elimination of the Electoral College, expand the House of Representatives to equalize district sizes as much as possible.  Also would like to see expansion of Ranked Choice and other Instant Runoff balloting so we can get a clearer idea of much support there really is for third parties and reduce the amount of defensive voting.

I think getting those changes made would increase voter turnout and encourage participation in the process.  Once those were in place I think a lot of the other things I want will happen.

Moving it to a weekend might help if you make it weekend-long. A holiday won't help a lot of the people you want to help, though. Service industries aren't closing for election day.

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I need to add: I would have been very satisfied with a taco truck on every corner. I was promised this, but unfortunately Hillary Clinton was not elected.

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