TheDirtyWord

Is concussion history a factor in your drafting?

20 posts in this topic

And if so, how much?

Davonte Adams and Devonta Freeman are two recent examples of players with high upside, but also having suffered two concussions in 2017.

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Yes it plays a part in my drafting and it will be rather significant.  I likely will not have Adams on any of my rosters because I won't take him where he is being taken.  Freeman may but probably won't. 

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2 hours ago, TheDirtyWord said:

And if so, how much?

Davonte Adams and Devonta Freeman are two recent examples of players with high upside, but also having suffered two concussions in 2017.

It bothers me a lot more with WR's and TE's than it does with RB's or QB's. I think its more because I feel like QB's and RB's are less prone to them, because they can usually see the hit coming and brace themselves, in a way that WR's and TE's can't, though i guess RB's in the passing game have that issue to.

Adams isn't in my top-10 WR's, and Freeman is in my top-10 RB's, so maybe my positional bias is playing out there. 

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concussions are more of a result of style of play and position rather than if you've had one. a concussion is only more likely within a short period of time following one concussion. it's not like a sprained ankle where you will be at risk for more and more. once the healing occurs in the brain, you are just as likely as the next person.

now, that's for normal concussions. these guys are getting nasty ones and likely small ones we dont catch. If your brain tissue doesnt heal fully then yes you can possibly be at a higher risk for further damage and a worse concussion the next time.

I'm concerned about Adam's. guy has bad luck with concussions. I'd be worried long term about his health if he puts himself in a position for more concussions

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Only with Reed and he's got so many injury concerns I can't even say it by itself is the concern. As in if I knew he was not going to get a concussion he's still be a high reward/high risk bet.

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Yes it does concern me because a lot of players have retired early at least in part due to their risk of concussion as part of the reason for their decision. Such as Calvin Johnson and a lot of other players.

Other notable players who recently quit the NFL at age 30 or younger

When the player has had multiple concussions I think there is a higher risk of a future concussion being more serious in nature and possibly more likely to happen to that player, such as Jordan Reed who has had 6 concussions now as well as many other injuries.

Quote

He said doctors haven't told him why he keeps getting concussions, speculating that perhaps it's because the ones he had in college were "pretty bad ones." LINK

I love Jordan Reed but that is a lot of concussions and other injuries.

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Yes but I have to know about it and frankly I'm less informed on who has. Of course I get the blame for that, but I do think some goes to the sites I frequent also- they could do better.

I still can't believe it didn't matter in the NFL draft; I mean there's little evidence that the QBs offered concern

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No interest in any player with concussion history.  Why?  One hit anyway from the bench

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I had the choice between evans and adams and i took adams so no I'm not super concerned.  A guy like Reed for sure, but a guy that literally gets blown up and suffers a concussion...not so much

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Draft the best player when available.  If you try to factor in concussions, knee injuries, off field arrests, drug use and domestic abuse you would not be able to field a team.

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59 minutes ago, stlrams said:

No interest in any player with concussion history.  Why?  One hit anyway from the bench

Yes but isn't that the case with every player?

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1 hour ago, killface said:

I had the choice between evans and adams and i took adams so no I'm not super concerned.  A guy like Reed for sure, but a guy that literally gets blown up and suffers a concussion...not so much

Getting a concussion either being blown up or not getting blown up still counts as a concussion.  And what doctors seem to say is that you're more likely to get a concussion after having one.  Now if a guy has one documented concussion, you can chalk that up to football being a tough sport.  But if they've had multiple and given the kid gloves the NFL is now trying to go about their protocols for clearance...is that noteworthy in the decision making process?

1 hour ago, Da Guru said:

Draft the best player when available.  If you try to factor in concussions, knee injuries, off field arrests, drug use and domestic abuse you would not be able to field a team.

Concussions and knee injuries are different things completely.  One has clear recovery and diagnosis protocols, the other still perplexes the medical community.

As for the other issues you mention, you think Shady is going to maintain his ADP?  You still drafting him middle of the 2nd round?

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Yes, I take into account but evaluate each situation on its own.  In general I'm much less worried about WRs or QB concussions than I am with RB concussions.

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17 hours ago, Dr. Dan said:

concussions are more of a result of style of play and position rather than if you've had one. a concussion is only more likely within a short period of time following one concussion. it's not like a sprained ankle where you will be at risk for more and more. once the healing occurs in the brain, you are just as likely as the next person.

now, that's for normal concussions. these guys are getting nasty ones and likely small ones we dont catch. If your brain tissue doesnt heal fully then yes you can possibly be at a higher risk for further damage and a worse concussion the next time.

I'm concerned about Adam's. guy has bad luck with concussions. I'd be worried long term about his health if he puts himself in a position for more concussions

I have read articles that say both sides of this equation.  Some say you are more susceptible and some say it doesn't matter.  They haven't seemed to differentiate between "bad" or "mild" and in some cases there are articles stating that all concussions are the same.  You either have one or you don't and it more depends on the individual that received the concussion on how long it takes to resolve. 

 

I think the only thing everyone can agree on is that concussions are bad and nobody really knows for sure what is really going on. 

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2 hours ago, Ilov80s said:

Yes but isn't that the case with every player?

I don't look back to college days so just NFL concussion history.  I.E. D Freeman - his running lends itself to concussions IMHO and he has a history so he's off my draft board.

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Posted (edited)

2 hours ago, Gally said:

I have read articles that say both sides of this equation.  Some say you are more susceptible and some say it doesn't matter.  They haven't seemed to differentiate between "bad" or "mild" and in some cases there are articles stating that all concussions are the same.  You either have one or you don't and it more depends on the individual that received the concussion on how long it takes to resolve. 

 

I think the only thing everyone can agree on is that concussions are bad and nobody really knows for sure what is really going on. 

I have been to two conferences within the last 3 years or so offered by my employer. I almost went to the one this year, as Dr. Anderson (the foot guy) was supposed to give a talk about the ankle/foot. That was canceled so I did not attend. One conference was a general sports medicine conference, where the Seattle surgeon spoke about ACLs. The other was a concussion conference where they had Dr. Kevin Guskiewicz speak. He has a lot of memberships, but most notably he's a member of the NFL Head, Neck, and Spine Committee. He was one of the individuals who formulated the most recent concussion protocol. So many studies referenced, and he even referenced the NFL protocol, which apparently is proprietary and he could only give us limited information on it. One of the biggest things I took away from his talk was exactly what I said above. He specifically stressed tackling and taking a hit, and how certain athletes' style of play is more indicative of concussion risk. I remember  being surprised, as I read my FBG articles too and even listen to the NFL commentators on game day... and I thought that once you get a concussion you're more susceptible to more concussions. It was surprising to hear that once the brain is healed, it's healed. Now that's a big if it heals. If it does not heal, then sure- another hit to the head can exacerbate those symptoms. 

So take it for what it's worth. I know there are a select few here that think I blow smoke and I just make this stuff up as I go along. I heard it from his own mouth, so if you believe me great, if not that's fine. It is one opinion, and I'm sure there are studies out there that show one concussion leads to more, but I'd be curious if those same studies compare style of play as Dr. Guskiewicz specifically discussed; maybe it's not the athlete's previous concussion that has lead to more, rather maybe it's every time that player approaches contact they lower their head down and lead with that. FWIW Dr. G also said that there isn't a single helmet that can prevent the next concussion. He quoted Dave Halstead, from the Southern Impact Research Center, "If a player is suffering repeated concussions, the helmet selected should look good on the golf course, because that player should consider changing sports." 

Edited by Dr. Dan
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Posted (edited)

4 hours ago, Da Guru said:

Draft the best player when available.  If you try to factor in concussions, knee injuries, off field arrests, drug use and domestic abuse you would not be able to field a team.

with the heightened awareness every time somebody even looks like they may have even gotten a little dinged....I think you have to separate it from the other things you mentioned....thats how I approach it anyway....if a guy gets hits and limps back to the huddle cause his knee maybe took a hit, they don't take him out of the game....but if you even look like you got out of bed a little too fast, you are coming out....those blue tents on the sidelines are there for a reason....and its not really for knee injuries...

that said, I don't factor it in a ton, but the way some guys end up finishing many of their plays kind of bothers me...Edelman and Amendola come to mind...just something about how they get hit when they are finishing plays usually has me yelling "please get up" after every one of their plays....(if they are in my lineup)...

Edited by Stinkin Ref

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31 minutes ago, Dr. Dan said:

I have been to two conferences within the last 3 years or so offered by my employer. I almost went to the one this year, as Dr. Anderson (the foot guy) was supposed to give a talk about the ankle/foot. That was canceled so I did not attend. One conference was a general sports medicine conference, where the Seattle surgeon spoke about ACLs. The other was a concussion conference where they had Dr. Kevin Guskiewicz speak. He has a lot of memberships, but most notably he's a member of the NFL Head, Neck, and Spine Committee. He was one of the individuals who formulated the most recent concussion protocol. So many studies referenced, and he even referenced the NFL protocol, which apparently is proprietary and he could only give us limited information on it. One of the biggest things I took away from his talk was exactly what I said above. He specifically stressed tackling and taking a hit, and how certain athletes' style of play is more indicative of concussion risk. I remember  being surprised, as I read my FBG articles too and even listen to the NFL commentators on game day... and I thought that once you get a concussion you're more susceptible to more concussions. It was surprising to hear that once the brain is healed, it's healed. Now that's a big if it heals. If it does not heal, then sure- another hit to the head can exacerbate those symptoms

So take it for what it's worth. I know there are a select few here that think I blow smoke and I just make this stuff up as I go along. I heard it from his own mouth, so if you believe me great, if not that's fine. It is one opinion, and I'm sure there are studies out there that show one concussion leads to more, but I'd be curious if those same studies compare style of play as Dr. Guskiewicz specifically discussed; maybe it's not the athlete's previous concussion that has lead to more, rather maybe it's every time that player approaches contact they lower their head down and lead with that. FWIW Dr. G also said that there isn't a single helmet that can prevent the next concussion. He quoted Dave Halstead, from the Southern Impact Research Center, "If a player is suffering repeated concussions, the helmet selected should look good on the golf course, because that player should consider changing sports." 

My daughter had a severe concussion playing soccer right before her freshman year of high school.  It was so bad she had double vision for almost two weeks after the event.  She lost all balance for about a week and looked like she was faking being off balance it was so bad.  She had to take the first semester off school and was told to basically do nothing.  Don't read, try not to think, and just let the brain rest.  She was never the type of person that got headaches and now she gets migraines.  She never had motion sickness and now she has problems in the car.  She had good vision and now she needs reading glasses.  All of these things have improved over time (she just graduated high school and will be going to Sonoma St) but she now has issues where she did not previously.

 

All this to say that it seems like from her symptoms that she would be more susceptible to another concussion with a blow to the head.  Talking to many doctors and specialists as we were going through this process the underlying theme that everyone said is that each person is different and is affected differently by head trauma.  There are no two cases alike and what helps for one may not help for another.  In addition, she may or may not be susceptible to future concussions.  Granted this was 4 years ago so I am sure things have changed but as with most medical situations doctors are "practicing". There are best practices and things that usually work but there are no absolutes.  I don't think concussions are any different.

 

For the purposes of fantasy football, I think the awareness is at such a heightened level that any signs of a head injury and teams are being very cautious.  As someone pointed out earlier they can't just "limp" it off.  Because of that it is different than other football injuries and even thought the actual risk may not be higher than other types of injuries the precautions taken after a possible issue are a lot more conservative than other injuries which may lead to loss of time on the field just as a precaution.  It's something I definitely consider when evaluating players.

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32 minutes ago, Gally said:

My daughter had a severe concussion playing soccer right before her freshman year of high school.  It was so bad she had double vision for almost two weeks after the event.  She lost all balance for about a week and looked like she was faking being off balance it was so bad.  She had to take the first semester off school and was told to basically do nothing.  Don't read, try not to think, and just let the brain rest.  She was never the type of person that got headaches and now she gets migraines.  She never had motion sickness and now she has problems in the car.  She had good vision and now she needs reading glasses.  All of these things have improved over time (she just graduated high school and will be going to Sonoma St) but she now has issues where she did not previously.

 

All this to say that it seems like from her symptoms that she would be more susceptible to another concussion with a blow to the head.  Talking to many doctors and specialists as we were going through this process the underlying theme that everyone said is that each person is different and is affected differently by head trauma.  There are no two cases alike and what helps for one may not help for another.  In addition, she may or may not be susceptible to future concussions.  Granted this was 4 years ago so I am sure things have changed but as with most medical situations doctors are "practicing". There are best practices and things that usually work but there are no absolutes.  I don't think concussions are any different.

 

For the purposes of fantasy football, I think the awareness is at such a heightened level that any signs of a head injury and teams are being very cautious.  As someone pointed out earlier they can't just "limp" it off.  Because of that it is different than other football injuries and even thought the actual risk may not be higher than other types of injuries the precautions taken after a possible issue are a lot more conservative than other injuries which may lead to loss of time on the field just as a precaution.  It's something I definitely consider when evaluating players.

I'm sorry to hear that. The statistics for recovery are 80-90% recover in 7-10 days, longer for adolescents. There's that small percentage of people who have longer lasting effects, and then an even smaller that have issues forever. You're absolutely right- to recover the best thing is to lay in the dark in a very quiet place. Don't do anything. Definitely no screen time. No reading. No listening. Just silence in the dark. I had a patient about 2 years ago she had terrible migraines and balance issues after a concussion in a car accident. I had to tell her that we could do what we could but chances are she may never be 100% again. That's a tough conversation to have with any person, because these effects are just terrible.  

You're absolutely right; each concussion is different. I say this to my patients every day at least once; you can't compare yourself to someone else because each injury, surgery, body response is completely different. You could have two knees replaced at the same time and they can turn out completely different. And they will. 

With regards to fantasy football, I usually try to avoid someone who has a significant history of concussions. Adams I have no interest in. Mostly because if he does get another I worry he may never recover. Or may walk away from the game at that point, and I wouldn't blame him. Otherwise 1 or 2 in their entire history, dating back into college or high school- those I'm not as concerned about as I think most football players have had a concussion at some point, and they may not have known even. Hell, I got one from the whiplash effect from slipping on ice at the bottom of my driveway. Can happen to anyone any time. 3+ and I start getting worried. 

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On 7/12/2018 at 3:30 AM, Bri said:

I still can't believe it didn't matter in the NFL draft; I mean there's little evidence that the QBs offered concern

I thought concussion concerns were one of the reasons Rosen was drafted later that many expected? I'm a big fan of Daneil Jeremiah and I believe he stated before the draft that Rosen would slide due to "injury concerns" that included both a shoulder injury and multiple concussions his senior year. I know many in the draftnick community considered Rosen the best QB in the draft, and at very least the most pro-ready QB.

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