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NewlyRetired

WSOP Main Event - Hellmuth controversy

223 posts in this topic

1 minute ago, Ilov80s said:

Well if it isn't in the grey, no reason to make such a noise of it. 

That's the point. He broke the rules and did not receive a penalty when he should have.

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19 minutes ago, gianmarco said:

That's the point. He broke the rules and did not receive a penalty when he should have.

In the poker game or the soccer game? 

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Out of curiosity what is the penalty he should have received?

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29 minutes ago, The Duff Man said:

Out of curiosity what is the penalty he should have received?

one round most likely

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Event 71... Phil just went from 3rd to 1st in two hands after dinner. Only 71 BB's total in play.

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Phil heads up...  It's on twitch

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25 minutes ago, Getzlaf15 said:

Phil heads up...  It's on twitch

I am watching. 

How is the camera picking up Wolanski's cards?  I see him slide it over to the camera but he never lifts them

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1 minute ago, NewlyRetired said:

I am watching. 

How is the camera picking up Wolanski's cards?  I see him slide it over to the camera but he never lifts them

that's weird. It's somehow picking them up when he slides them to the right.

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2 minutes ago, NewlyRetired said:

I am watching. 

How is the camera picking up Wolanski's cards?  I see him slide it over to the camera but he never lifts them

Microchips embedded in the cards.

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I thought they are RFID or something?

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1 minute ago, Nipsey said:

Microchips embedded in the cards.

then why is he sliding them to the right every time?

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1 minute ago, NewlyRetired said:

then why is he sliding them to the right every time?

yes

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1 minute ago, NewlyRetired said:

then why is he sliding them to the right every time?

No idea.

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3 hours ago, Nipsey said:

It was bush league but I thought Phil just blanked for a second and forgot that there was a third person in the hand. Once he came to and remembered there was another guy behind him he shut up. He just gets off on being that character on TV.

Yep.  He did seem to chill when he realized first position still needed to act. Buying third position's entry next year was a fair and reasonable gesture. 

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55 minutes ago, Getzlaf15 said:

Event 71... Phil just went from 3rd to 1st in two hands after dinner. Only 71 BB's total in play.

Hey how'd you finish?

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4 minutes ago, NewlyRetired said:

then why is he sliding them to the right every time?

limited range?

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1 minute ago, Zow said:

Hey how'd you finish?

In the PLO8, i finished 30 from the $$.  HORSE tomorrow.

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11 minutes ago, Getzlaf15 said:

In the PLO8, i finished 30 from the $$.  HORSE tomorrow.

Good luck. 

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9 minutes ago, coyote5 said:

limited range?

I wonder if it is his big stack which keeps he cards way away from the edge closest to him?  He own section must have worked since this was the final table set up I think and must have had some one next to him.

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38 total BB . LOL

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Joe Cada is in the final ten for the main event. 

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I’ll bite.

Why can’t (or shouldn’t) you do what Phil Helmet did?

 

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1 minute ago, T-shirt Ninja said:

I’ll bite.

Why can’t (or shouldn’t) you do what Phil Helmet did?

his comments possibly effected the person who was to bet in front of him.  That is against the rules from what I understand.

It is similar to folding out of turn which can also bring a penalty if enforced.  Usually a dealer will let it slide once but if a player does it a second time he will get dinged.

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2 minutes ago, T-shirt Ninja said:

I’ll bite.

Why can’t (or shouldn’t) you do what Phil Helmet did?

 

He indicated to the guy on his right he wasn't a threat in the hand. In essence he folded out of turn. He made the call for that guy easier.

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2 minutes ago, NewlyRetired said:

his comments possibly effected the person who was to bet in front of him.  That is against the rules from what I understand.

It is similar to folding out of turn which can also bring a penalty if enforced.  Usually a dealer will let it slide once but if a player does it a second time he will get dinged.

 

1 minute ago, Nipsey said:

He indicated to the guy on his right he wasn't a threat in the hand. In essence he folded out of turn. He made the call for that guy easier.

OK, I get that.

What if Phil actually didn’t fold?

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1 minute ago, T-shirt Ninja said:

 

OK, I get that.

What if Phil actually didn’t fold?

He'd still be a richard.

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3 minutes ago, T-shirt Ninja said:

 

OK, I get that.

What if Phil actually didn’t fold?

he would have won the hand.

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2 minutes ago, T-shirt Ninja said:

 

OK, I get that.

What if Phil actually didn’t fold?

it is still against the rules because he is effecting some one in a three handed set up.  

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1 minute ago, Nipsey said:

He'd still be a richard.

Because he lied? 

Im not trying to be dense here.  I just always thought the game was built around deceit.  Would PH still be wrong if he silently looked at his cards, frowned, and shook his head.  Or maybe sighed?  

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2 minutes ago, Nipsey said:

He'd still be a richard.

He may be a richard, but he just won his 15th bracelet.

 

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1 minute ago, T-shirt Ninja said:

Because he lied? 

Im not trying to be dense here.  I just always thought the game was built around deceit.  Would PH still be wrong if he silently looked at his cards, frowned, and shook his head.  Or maybe sighed?  

all that is fine, except in a multi player pot.

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1 minute ago, T-shirt Ninja said:

Because he lied? 

Im not trying to be dense here.  I just always thought the game was built around deceit.  Would PH still be wrong if he silently looked at his cards, frowned, and shook his head.  Or maybe sighed?  

Because it's not his turn to act. Putting false tells out there is one thing but he went way beyond that.

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Just now, Nipsey said:

Because it's not his turn to act. Putting false tells out there is one thing but he went way beyond that.

Ah, now that makes sense I guess.

 

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The final table is full of male millennials. 

I feel old. 

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3 minutes ago, Getzlaf15 said:

all that is fine, except in a multi player pot.

this is the key.  Heads up you can do almost anything short of flipping your cards to get a read but multi pot has a lot more rules.

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15 minutes ago, T-shirt Ninja said:

I’ll bite.

Why can’t (or shouldn’t) you do what Phil Helmet did?

 

Specifically, here's why it matters in this hand.  You have to have a least a general understanding of poker and, more importantly, tournament poker, but I'll try to explain a little.

In tournament poker, once your chips are gone, you are out. In this position, the player with A9 had a small stack of chips (26k). Phil and the other player had significantly more (I think like 150k and 250k). 

The player with 26k is not a threat to either of them. Sure, its a decent number of chips, but if either lose to him, they are still in great shape. However, the two big stacks are definitely a threat to each other. They should and would be very careful about calling big bets against each other.

So, when A9 moved all in with his chips, part of his strategy there is to leverage the fact that the two big stacks have to worry about each other. The big stack who ended up calling may not have done so if he thinks Phil will also call or possibly reraise. Since Phil is supposed to act after him, he can't be sure and is more likely to fold as a result unless he's very strong (which he wasn't). But when Phil starts his rant, he now knows Phil is relatively weak and now decides it's worth the call to try and knock the player out. 

That completely kills the leverage the first player with A9 has and was likely banking on. It was a great play, especially with his hand. He prefers both players to fold but even if they don't, he has a decent shot to win. 

That's why you aren't supposed to discuss an ongoing hand nor act out of turn. You may influence a player to call or fold when they otherwise wouldn't.  That's why the rule is in place. If you are heads up, then it's fair game, but not with others in a pot.

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Posted (edited)

One last comment about it:

One of the most annoying things in a tournament when you have a decent sized stack is to have a small stack to your left. What that means is the small stack is a threat to push all their chips in at that stage of the tournament and you can't play any mediocre hands for a small amount because you need to fold when they move all in most of the time. Thus you have to fold more often or you bleed away chips unnecessarily.

It's an action killer and can be frustrating, especially if it's an aggressive player doing it enough. Sure, they'll eventually either bust out or they will double up and stop doing it, but until then it can be difficult to play in that spot.

I guarantee Phil was getting frustrated with that and that led to his rant and I'm sure there was an intentional component to it hoping the other guy calls to try and get him off the table.  Guarantee it. Phil isn't dumb and he knew exactly who was in that hand and who was left to act. Which is why what he did is definitely not cool in addition to being against the rules. It wasn't a mistake, IMO.

Edited by gianmarco
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24 minutes ago, gianmarco said:

Specifically, here's why it matters in this hand.  You have to have a least a general understanding of poker and, more importantly, tournament poker, but I'll try to explain a little.

 

 

Wait, aces are good, right?

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Just now, T-shirt Ninja said:

Wait, aces are good, right?

If you're able to let them go at times, absolutely :)

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