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Captain Cranks

Why is Roe v Wade so important?

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1 minute ago, Stealthycat said:

 

So its human, and its alive ............  if its NOT human, they you have something that needs to be an X-Files episode. If its not alive, there is no pregnancy

it really is that simple

Is the batter a pancake?  It's really that simple.

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23 minutes ago, Stealthycat said:

as I said, when a pregnancy exists ..... I never said anything different did I ?  you can talk about before a pregnancy and we can discuss that if you'd like ..... but a woman doesn't have an abortion before a pregnancy begins does she ??

and no, I'm not wrong, a single human cell can be called  "live" but its not a living human being

a pregnant woman has an unborn living child in the womb with all but the most rare of abnormal pregnancies ......... an abortion is the procedure to kill the unborn and end the pregnancy

nobody can argue that the above isn't true

now, you can argue that the unborn's life doesn't have value, that killing it should be the right of the mother to have it done .............  but to argue it isn't alive fails, every time

 

 

Setting aside the semantic disagreement about whether it's a "child" or not, you are right.  There is something unborn and living in her womb.  But that thing doesn't become a post-natal human life without her continued cooperation. It doesn't exist independent of the woman's cooperation.  She has to eat certain foods, not eat others, avoid certain activities or engage in them safely, etc. Whatever you may think about the act of getting an abortion, you cannot deny the woman's role and autonomy here. If you find abortion so monstrous that you think it justifies compelling a woman to carry a child to term (similarly to finding starvation so monstrous that we think it justifies creating a duty for parents to feed their children), that's fine. But you cannot discuss the life you are protecting without at least acknowledging that you are compelling the cooperation of pregnant women in bringing that life into the outside world. If you deny that support for your cause will always be in the minority.

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19 hours ago, Stealthycat said:

I'll never understand the ignore list ........... to me, that's a person desperate to not understand the views of others, which is one step towards unacceptance, intolerance and eventually, hate

Actually, in my case, it's a person who's desperate to see another contribute in a way that's founded on logic, reason, and ultimately facts.  Once I've determined over an extended period that the other person is incapable of this, to the ignore list he/she goes.  You aren't on my ignore list, btw, despite the fact that we're diametrically opposed on virtually everything.  You've shown that you're capable of contributing to the conversation and I want to understand your point of view more.  

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2 hours ago, Stealthycat said:

Sperm is alive.  Eggs are alive. 

As I understand biology the above each have 1/2 of what it takes to make a living human being. Am I wrong ? neither of the above are a singular individual human genome are they ?

It depends on what you mean by a human being.

If you mean a fertilized egg, then the unfertilized egg has far more than 99.99% of what it takes while the sperm has far less than 0.01%.

If you mean a sentient person, the egg has far less than 0.01% of what it takes and the sperm has far less than 0.01% of what the egg has.

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2 hours ago, adonis said:

You're missing my point.  I"m not saying there's not something "living" in there.  What i'm saying is that it's not a "living human".

it has to be human ... human females cannot bear non-human offspring

it has to be alive, living , or there would no pregnancy

It cannot be any other way. it HAS to be a living human or there is no pregnancy.

 

you are caught up in what is and isn't living and alive BEFORE a pregnancy starts ..... I'm not. You can search for that truth and debate it but it has nothing to do with Roe v Wade because not pregnant women don't have abortion.

 

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2 hours ago, adonis said:

You're missing my point. 

It's like deja vu all over again

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1 hour ago, TobiasFunke said:

Setting aside the semantic disagreement about whether it's a "child" or not, you are right.  There is something unborn and living in her womb.  But that thing doesn't become a post-natal human life without her continued cooperation. It doesn't exist independent of the woman's cooperation.  She has to eat certain foods, not eat others, avoid certain activities or engage in them safely, etc. Whatever you may think about the act of getting an abortion, you cannot deny the woman's role and autonomy here. If you find abortion so monstrous that you think it justifies compelling a woman to carry a child to term (similarly to finding starvation so monstrous that we think it justifies creating a duty for parents to feed their children), that's fine. But you cannot discuss the life you are protecting without at least acknowledging that you are compelling the cooperation of pregnant women in bringing that life into the outside world. If you deny that support for your cause will always be in the minority.

all the above is true - and its also true how much support women get from their spouses and family and doctors etc to aid in helping their pregnancy and unborn child

the highlight in red ......... its human life already, she cannot control that or wish it away. The ONLY way it ends, once a pregnancy begins, is the baby dies or is born alive. That's it ..... and that death can be a natural miscarriage or it can be killed in the woman through fetal violence acts and the mother still lives, or they can both die ...... but once that pregnancy begins that unborn baby is alive and living and yes, the mother is exceptionally important in all our lives. A woman is amazing, wonderful, exceptional and everyone should honor what they do in life.

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35 minutes ago, Maurile Tremblay said:

It depends on what you mean by a human being.

If you mean a fertilized egg, then the unfertilized egg has far more than 99.99% of what it takes while the sperm has far less than 0.01%.

If you mean a sentient person, the egg has far less than 0.01% of what it takes and the sperm has far less than 0.01% of what the egg has.

I mean once a pregnancy begins ..... ya'll want to talk about BEFORE that's fine, we can debate that all day and still at the end of that day, once a pregnancy begins there is a mother and an unborn living child .... and abortions sole purpose is to kill that baby and end the pregnancy

Horrible to read that and acknowledge isn't it ?

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21 minutes ago, Stealthycat said:

I mean once a pregnancy begins ..... ya'll want to talk about BEFORE that's fine, we can debate that all day and still at the end of that day, once a pregnancy begins there is a mother and an unborn living child .... and abortions sole purpose is to kill that baby and end the pregnancy

Horrible to read that and acknowledge isn't it ?

Define child.

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3 hours ago, Stealthycat said:

Sperm is alive.  Eggs are alive. 

As I understand biology the above each have 1/2 of what it takes to make a living human being. Am I wrong ?

 

56 minutes ago, Maurile Tremblay said:

It depends on what you mean by a human being.

If you mean a fertilized egg, then the unfertilized egg has far more than 99.99% of what it takes while the sperm has far less than 0.01%.

If you mean a sentient person, the egg has far less than 0.01% of what it takes and the sperm has far less than 0.01% of what the egg has.

 

19 minutes ago, Stealthycat said:

I mean once a pregnancy begins .....

You asked whether the egg and sperm each have half of what it takes to make a living human being.

The question makes no sense once a pregnancy begins. There is no sperm after a pregnancy begins, so a sperm at that point has precisely 0% of what it takes.

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2 hours ago, adonis said:
2 hours ago, Stealthycat said:

 

So its human, and its alive ............  if its NOT human, they you have something that needs to be an X-Files episode. If its not alive, there is no pregnancy

it really is that simple

Is the batter a pancake?  It's really that simple.

Bump.  Curious as to your answer here.

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3 minutes ago, adonis said:

Define child.

child, fetus, kid, baby ...... the name you choose is irrelevant to the fact that unborn is alive and human

I call it a unborn baby, a child ..... that's my way to reference because that innocent life is precious and worth protecting. Using those words are references of endearment and love and caring and attaches senses of fatherhood, motherhood, family etc.

Pro-abortion don't use those words, they want to distance themselves from all that and use words that makes it easy to dehumanize.

Whatever name you want to use is OK with me .... we both know that unborn in the pregnancy is alive and human

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7 minutes ago, Maurile Tremblay said:

You asked whether the egg and sperm each have half of what it takes to make a living human being.

The question makes no sense once a pregnancy begins. There is no sperm after a pregnancy begins, so a sperm at that point has precisely 0% of what it takes.

it was in reference to someone saying a sperm is alive and an egg is alive and that was being tied to the equivalency of an unborn baby in the womb

not the same thing - not anywhere NEAR the same thing

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1 minute ago, Stealthycat said:

it was in reference to someone saying a sperm is alive and an egg is alive and that was being tied to the equivalency of an unborn baby in the womb

not the same thing - not anywhere NEAR the same thing

Seems pretty close to the same thing to me.

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23 minutes ago, Stealthycat said:

all the above is true - and its also true how much support women get from their spouses and family and doctors etc to aid in helping their pregnancy and unborn child

the highlight in red ......... its human life already, she cannot control that or wish it away. The ONLY way it ends, once a pregnancy begins, is the baby dies or is born alive. That's it ..... and that death can be a natural miscarriage or it can be killed in the woman through fetal violence acts and the mother still lives, or they can both die ...... but once that pregnancy begins that unborn baby is alive and living and yes, the mother is exceptionally important in all our lives. A woman is amazing, wonderful, exceptional and everyone should honor what they do in life.

This is a matter of opinion. You are welcome to yours, but you are not welcome to state it as unassailable truth. The idea that your perspective on what makes a life human is the only valid one is the height of arrogance.

I also find it telling that the pro-life side is so willing to praise women for their obviously important role in the process yet are mostly unwilling to admit that their position obliges women to serve as machines of reproduction. We have no problem phrasing the duties of parents affirmatively, so if people truly believe prenatal life is as human and as valuable as postnatal life, why can't they say it? 

"Any woman that becomes pregnant should be required by law to carry the pregnancy to term."  That's the pro-life position, yes?  So why not phrase it like that?  Is it perhaps that a bunch of mostly male politicians issuing mandates as to how women must behave if they get knocked up is a bit unseemly?

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2 minutes ago, adonis said:

Bump.  Curious as to your answer here.

I'm not sure exactly how to answer.

Your analogy of making pancakes and a human life being created ......  I mean that's far far far reaching but I'd say all the ingredients laid out on a counter for pancakes isn't a pancake no more so than a sperm and egg separated laid out on a counter is a baby

I think you know that already.

mix it all together and its pancake ..... mix it together right and a pregnancy starts and its a living unborn baby

 

 

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1 minute ago, fatguyinalittlecoat said:

Seems pretty close to the same thing to me.

no, it doesn't at all unless you've never taken biology ?

 

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Just now, Stealthycat said:

no, it doesn't at all unless you've never taken biology ?

 

I have taken biology so that's not it.  Explain to me what's so different about a fertilized egg as compared to an unfertilized egg that's about to get fertilized.

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4 minutes ago, Stealthycat said:

I'm not sure exactly how to answer.

Your analogy of making pancakes and a human life being created ......  I mean that's far far far reaching but I'd say all the ingredients laid out on a counter for pancakes isn't a pancake no more so than a sperm and egg separated laid out on a counter is a baby

I think you know that already.

mix it all together and its pancake ..... mix it together right and a pregnancy starts and its a living unborn baby

 

 

There's a step you're missing there, GB.

And here I was thinking my wife was the worst breakfast cook on earth.

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13 minutes ago, Stealthycat said:
19 minutes ago, adonis said:

Bump.  Curious as to your answer here.

I'm not sure exactly how to answer.

Your analogy of making pancakes and a human life being created ......  I mean that's far far far reaching but I'd say all the ingredients laid out on a counter for pancakes isn't a pancake no more so than a sperm and egg separated laid out on a counter is a baby

I think you know that already.

mix it all together and its pancake ..... mix it together right and a pregnancy starts and its a living unborn baby

If you mix all the ingredients together, you no more have a pancake than having sperm meet egg gives you a human.

It's what happens after that.  The raw ingredients are there to move towards making a pancake, in the case of the batter, and in the case of the fertilized egg, all the ingredients (assuming nothing necessary is missing) are there to create a human.  However, that is not a human.  It takes time, nutrients, the right environment, etc to grow into a living human, however and whenever one wants to make that distinction.  Again - when is a pancake a "pancake"?

The equivalence you're making here is calling pancake batter, a pancake.  It's not.  Neither is a fertilized egg a living human, unless you so mangle the definition of "living human" to be unrecognizable beyond the scope of this disagreement.

At best, a fertilized egg is the batter of human life.  When cooked/incubated properly, it can turn into a human, much like pancake batter, when cooked properly can turn into pancakes.

I'm starting to crave pancakes.  Thanks a lot.

Edited by adonis

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15 minutes ago, fatguyinalittlecoat said:

I have taken biology so that's not it.  Explain to me what's so different about a fertilized egg as compared to an unfertilized egg that's about to get fertilized.

we can get into that if you want , whether its life of not but surely if it is, then a an unborn baby absolutely is ............. but that's not a pregnancy

a woman doesn't seek abortion before she's pregnant does she ?

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2 minutes ago, Stealthycat said:

we can get into that if you want , whether its life of not but surely if it is, then a an unborn baby absolutely is ............. but that's not a pregnancy

a woman doesn't seek abortion before she's pregnant does she ?

I don't think what we call something is important in deciding its value.  So I'm not going to get into what constitutes "life" or a "human" or anything like that because that's just a distraction.  But yes, a woman gets an abortion when she is pregnant, no argument there.  Continue counselor.

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7 minutes ago, adonis said:

If you mix all the ingredients together, you no more have a pancake than having sperm meet egg gives you a human.

It's what happens after that.  The raw ingredients are there to move towards making a pancake, in the case of the batter, and in the case of the fertilized egg, all the ingredients (assuming nothing necessary is missing) are there to create a human.  However, that is not a human.  It takes time, nutrients, the right environment, etc to grow into a living human, however and whenever one wants to make that distinction.  Again - when is a pancake a "pancake"?

The equivalence you're making here is calling pancake batter, a pancake.  It's not.  Neither is a fertilized egg a living human, unless you so mangle the definition of "living human" to be unrecognizable beyond the scope of this disagreement.

At best, a fertilized egg is the batter of human life.  When cooked/incubated properly, it can turn into a human, much like pancake batter, when cooked properly can turn into pancakes.

I'm starting to crave pancakes.  Thanks a lot.

can't go to IHOP either, its not IHOB - sorry

when a sperm meets an egg, do you think that's human life ?

deep discussion there, because many times that doesn't even lead to a fertilized egg, right ? and if it does, where is that located? petri dish ? frozen in a lab vile ? is that a living human baby ?

some say it is, some say it isn't ...... but what we DO know is that once a pregnancy starts, there HAS to be an unborn baby there, alive. Sure, it might not be far developed, but it has to be alive, or there would not be a pregnancy - your ingredients all came together in biological magic and a pregnancy starts and a living human baby is created and the mothers body knows it - again in a magical biological way the woman's body knows there is a living unborn baby there. Not a kitten, not a tumor, not a non-living thing ..... a living human unborn. Can't trick the mothers body either, it knows and what it is can be called 1,000 things but what it IS doesn't change. An abortion can kill it, ending the pregnancy this is true. 

once you mix all those raw ingredients, you got pancake. Sure, might not be far developed into those crispy brown things you live, but it has to be pancake mix to make pancakes. your ingredients come together to make pancake, can't be cookie dough or concrete mix either, its pancake.

 

you can't make pancakes with having pancake and you can't have a pregnancy without an unborn living baby

 

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1 minute ago, fatguyinalittlecoat said:

But yes, a woman gets an abortion when she is pregnant, no argument there.

does an abortion kill the unborn life and end the pregnancy  ? 

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6 minutes ago, Stealthycat said:

does an abortion kill the unborn life and end the pregnancy  ? 

Yes, abortion ends a pregnancy.  "Kill the unborn life" is sorta inflammatory language so I'll stay away from that categorization for now.  OK, continue with your argument.*

 

*Note - I have a work meeting in ten minutes so it might be a while before I can respond to what you say unless I use my phone during the meeting, which is sometimes possible.

Edited by fatguyinalittlecoat

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42 minutes ago, adonis said:

If you mix all the ingredients together, you no more have a pancake than having sperm meet egg gives you a human.

It's what happens after that.  The raw ingredients are there to move towards making a pancake, in the case of the batter, and in the case of the fertilized egg, all the ingredients (assuming nothing necessary is missing) are there to create a human.  However, that is not a human.  It takes time, nutrients, the right environment, etc to grow into a living human, however and whenever one wants to make that distinction.  Again - when is a pancake a "pancake"?

The equivalence you're making here is calling pancake batter, a pancake.  It's not.  Neither is a fertilized egg a living human, unless you so mangle the definition of "living human" to be unrecognizable beyond the scope of this disagreement.

At best, a fertilized egg is the batter of human life.  When cooked/incubated properly, it can turn into a human, much like pancake batter, when cooked properly can turn into pancakes.

I'm starting to crave pancakes.  Thanks a lot.

"I think you mean cooked pancakes. The batter itself is pancakes." - stealthy

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43 minutes ago, fatguyinalittlecoat said:

Yes, abortion ends a pregnancy.  "Kill the unborn life" is sorta inflammatory language so I'll stay away from that categorization for now.  OK, continue with your argument.*

but that literally has to happen

if the procedure doesn't kill the unborn, that's a botched abortion and the pregnancy continues .... its not inflammatory, its literally what an abortion is

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13 minutes ago, VandyMan said:

"I think you mean cooked pancakes. The batter itself is pancakes." - stealthy

I didn't say this - why add my name like I did ?

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4 minutes ago, Stealthycat said:
17 minutes ago, VandyMan said:

"I think you mean cooked pancakes. The batter itself is pancakes." - stealthy

I didn't say this - why add my name like I did ?

You seem to be arguing that in my analogy, the pancake batter is a pancake.

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8 minutes ago, adonis said:

You seem to be arguing that in my analogy, the pancake batter is a pancake.

it is pancake .... do you think its cookie dough or concrete mix?

its absolutely pancake ......... you can call it anything you want, but its pancake

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14 minutes ago, Stealthycat said:

but that literally has to happen

if the procedure doesn't kill the unborn, that's a botched abortion and the pregnancy continues .... its not inflammatory, its literally what an abortion is

Yes I agreed an abortion ends the pregnancy.  I may be missing your argument.

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Just now, fatguyinalittlecoat said:

Yes I agreed an abortion ends the pregnancy.  I may be missing your argument.

how does it end the pregnancy ? an abortion HAS to kill the unborn .......... if the abortion doesn't kill the unborn the pregnancy continues

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2 minutes ago, Stealthycat said:

it is pancake .... do you think its cookie dough or concrete mix?

its absolutely pancake ......... you can call it anything you want, but its pancake

Usually I don't like distracting tangents in political threads but this one is gold, both on its own and because the analogy kind of works to highlight the pro-choice perspective.

So to be clear, if you saw this you would say something along the lines of "look, pancakes!"  Or is that just one pancake?

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7 minutes ago, Stealthycat said:

how does it end the pregnancy ? an abortion HAS to kill the unborn .......... if the abortion doesn't kill the unborn the pregnancy continues

None of us disagrees about what happens in an abortion.  

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15 minutes ago, Stealthycat said:
24 minutes ago, adonis said:

You seem to be arguing that in my analogy, the pancake batter is a pancake.

it is pancake .... do you think its cookie dough or concrete mix?

its absolutely pancake ......... you can call it anything you want, but its pancake

You're shifting reality to suit your ideology.

And a result is that you're being forced to call pancake batter the same thing as pancakes, which it clearly is not.

Edited by adonis

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30 minutes ago, IvanKaramazov said:

Now I'm hungry for pancakes.

It's basically at this point though that American puritanism meets its hedonistic side though, right?  Some in here will want to make sure no one ever sees the pancake batter or has any conversation about the pancake batter in mixed company or around children.  While some will want to watch the batter being made, and then add things like butter, whipped cream and strawberries.

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12 minutes ago, TobiasFunke said:

So to be clear, if you saw this you would say something along the lines of "look, pancakes!"  Or is that just one pancake?

 

if I took a sample and have a science lab analyze it, what would it come back and say ? it would say pancake

if you took a sample of an unborn baby 6 weeks into a pregnancy, had it analyzed, it would come back as a unique individual genome, a human being, DNA would prove it

 

looks doesn't define things nor does what we call them ............. they are what they are regardless

 

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1 minute ago, Yankee23Fan said:

It's basically at this point though that American puritanism meets its hedonistic side though, right?  Some in here will want to make sure no one ever sees the pancake batter or has any conversation about the pancake batter in mixed company or around children.  While some will want to watch the batter being made, and then add things like butter, whipped cream and strawberries.

Sicko.

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3 minutes ago, Stealthycat said:

looks doesn't define things nor does what we call them ............. they are what they are regardless

This is clearly untrue.  

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4 minutes ago, Stealthycat said:

if I took a sample and have a science lab analyze it, what would it come back and say ? it would say pancake

Flour, milk, eggs, butter, baking powder, salt, sugar.

Pancake batter.

Not pancakes. You have to cook it to get pancakes.

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8 minutes ago, fatguyinalittlecoat said:

None of us disagrees about what happens in an abortion.  

so we have a society that accepts, condones and tolerates killing unborn human babies

kinda tough to admit that isn't it yet its true

 

 

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Maybe stealthy runs a raw food restaurant? That might explain his curious lack of cooking acumen

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2 minutes ago, Stealthycat said:

 

if I took a sample and have a science lab analyze it, what would it come back and say ? it would say pancake

if you took a sample of an unborn baby 6 weeks into a pregnancy, had it analyzed, it would come back as a unique individual genome, a human being, DNA would prove it

 

looks doesn't define things nor does what we call them ............. they are what they are regardless

 

That's an interesting question.

And not to step on @Maurile Tremblay 's toes at all, but there is a chemical reaction that takes place once the compound mixture of dry ingredients and wet ingredients are heated for a time.  Until that heat raises the temperature of the mixture on the skillet, there is no chemical reaction.  Once the heat hits a certain level and the internal temperature of the compound mixture hits a catalyst point, that is when gluten is formed, when amino acids break down and fuse with sugars, and when the release of gas creates the bubbles you see in the heated mixture.  Without that chemical reaction from the heat, what you have in front of you is not a pancake its a mixture ready to become one.

IF you don't let the temperature rise to the point that the amino acid reaction takes place, you don't end up with a pancake, you end up with something closer to a scone or a biscuit but without any aromatic taste of sweetness because the acids didn't attach too and alter the internal sugars.  That's why regular old pancake batter by itself tastes awful, but once its been fried, it's awesome.  

So there is something more necessary that mixing the dry and wet ingredients to create a pancake.

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2 minutes ago, adonis said:

This is clearly untrue.  

no, it isn't

if you are holding a puppy, a genuine, genetically canine puppy, you can call it anything you want but its a puppy

its why mental illness anorexia is what is it is .... a person sees themselves as fat, their mind calls it fat, believe it fat .... but the body is NOT fat regardless of what the person thinks or see or calls it, right ?

an unborn baby in a pregnancy is 100% living human, undeniable and true regardless of what you or I label it

you can call this cookie dough and I 100% promise you, it isn't 

https://express.google.com/u/0/product/17095136660839293191_9238515401684259256_10046?utm_source=google_shopping&utm_medium=tu_cu&utm_content=eid-lsjeuxoeqt,eid-ptgtgfeotu&utm_campaign=10046

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1 minute ago, Stealthycat said:

so we have a society that accepts, condones and tolerates killing unborn human babies

kinda tough to admit that isn't it yet its true

I think your inability to differentiate between pancake batter and pancakes might prevent you from accurately speaking for what others do and don't believe. 

It's clear there's something wonky in your logic on this issue that prevents you from making pretty obvious distinctions that the rest of the world commonly accept.

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