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Questions for Trump supporters (1 Viewer)

The General said:
After rereading the first post I guess this is only for Trump fans to talk. I just read through the beginning and saw a bunch of questions so figured it was a place to leave snark out but have back and forth. 

Apologies Trump fans. 
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I think thats what it is actually.

 
TobiasFunke said:
OK ... but why?  That seems like a reasonable question. Nobody else has needed this, Trump is not the first unpopular politician in the history of the forum, and his policies are not the first unpopular policies around here.  Why do Trump supporters need or deserve a safe space that others do not?
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"The reality is 1), The Trump supporters here are a tiny minority of the forum and 2) No offense but the vast majority of the guys good at posting and making strong written arguments are on the other side of Trump supporters. That's just how it is."

How would you like to be on the side that even Joe Bryant pities? Let's give them some space.

 
TobiasFunke said:
OK ... but why?  That seems like a reasonable question. Nobody else has needed this, Trump is not the first unpopular politician in the history of the forum, and his policies are not the first unpopular policies around here.  Why do Trump supporters need or deserve a safe space that others do not?
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I'll let Fred and HT answer that. I think it's just interesting to see what they say amongst themselves, and honestly I think it will drop off Page 1 pretty quickly assuming the same 2-3 people do not constantly repost. I've said before that debate and discussion are good for everybody, them included, but I'd at least like to show some respect to Fred at a minimum.

 
roadkill1292 said:
"The reality is 1), The Trump supporters here are a tiny minority of the forum and 2) No offense but the vast majority of the guys good at posting and making strong written arguments are on the other side of Trump supporters. That's just how it is."

How would you like to be on the side that even Joe Bryant pities? Let's give them some space.
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Their side controls all three branches of government and there's a new soft-focus profile of them from a major national news service on a daily basis.  I think they've gotten plenty of space and deference already.  And as I said before there are plenty of even less popular politicians and policies that have gotten backing here.

What we need is more people willing to discuss the actual issues with them instead of descending into cross-trolling and accusations of bigotry, like @quickhands and I just did. That's a thread I can get behind. The fact that "the vast majority of the guys good at posting and making strong written arguments are on the other side of Trump supporters" seems irrelevant to me. I mean there's probably a reason for that, maybe we should explore what that is.

 
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quickhands said:
I dont believe this happens tho.   Its to expensive to fight the bottomless pit of epa money.   For every company that fights them    1000 dont.   
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My wife is a regulatory attorney for a large energy company - you would be blown away by how much companies spend fighting/dodging EPA regulations and standards.  You have it completely backwards.  

 
quickhands said:
It seems to me that the economy is kinda robust.    Something happened just after obama left the white house.    The only thing that makes sense to me is that Trump was removing regulations.
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“Seems,” “feels,” and “believes” are not actual assertions of fact. 

 
tommyGunZ said:
I’ll now bow out and respect Fred’s wishes, though I disagree with the idea of a thread where ignorance and alternative facts are left unchallenged.  
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I think this is why BostonFred is asking for Trump Supporters to be given an opportunity to answer his questions.  Because as soon as someone like you or TF comes in here calling them ignorant it's going to be like the 100 threads here where it's an unproductive back and forth of snarky responses.   I view this as BostonFred trying to have a productive discussion to learn what they are thinking without you guys arguing back and forth every damn comment one of them makes.

 
Ramblin Wreck said:
I think this is why BostonFred is asking for Trump Supporters to be given an opportunity to answer his questions.  Because as soon as someone like you or TF comes in here calling them ignorant it's going to be like the 100 threads here where it's an unproductive back and forth of snarky responses.   I view this as BostonFred trying to have a productive discussion to learn what they are thinking without you guys arguing back and forth every damn comment one of them makes.
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MUST CHALLENGE OTHERS OPINION!!!!!

 
TobiasFunke said:
OK ... but why?  That seems like a reasonable question. Nobody else has needed this, Trump is not the first unpopular politician in the history of the forum, and his policies are not the first unpopular policies around here.  Why do Trump supporters need or deserve a safe space that others do not?
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BF's thread so take with a grain of salt, but I think that for the most part what has been going on in the forums hasn't been particularly productive toward achieving common ground.  On occasion, there are thoughts expressed from Trump supporters that are legitimately free of snark, so there is certainly something of value there to consider, but the majority of it gets swallowed up in the back and forth bickering.  Whatever is "needed or deserved" doesn't seem all that important on a message board where we should mostly be seeking to obtain information and postulate ideas with no real objective consequence.  Just letting the information be out there for further consideration over time seems worthwhile to me.

 
Ramblin Wreck said:
I think this is why BostonFred is asking for Trump Supporters to be given an opportunity to answer his questions.  Because as soon as someone like you or TF comes in here calling them ignorant it's going to be like the 100 threads here where it's an unproductive back and forth of snarky responses.   I view this as BostonFred trying to have a productive discussion to learn what they are thinking without you guys arguing back and forth every damn comment one of them makes.
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These are the responses so far, four total.

eta - I'll add Joe's post led to a bit of a diversion from Fred's OP.

bostonfred said:
I've seen a lot of people defending Trump and his policies.  I understand that he's undone a lot of what Obama did and that he's enacted some Republican measures, plus the supreme court.  So I get that there's a certain satisfaction with his job so far because he's doing things you wanted him to do. 

My questions for people who currently support him

1) do you feel like his accomplishments and future potential outweigh the alleged corruption, or do you feel like there really is no corruption? 

2) do you feel like he's permanently damaged the country's relationships with allies like NATO? Or improved them? 

3) is there anything he could do that would be too much?  as examples

- if we withdrew from NATO?

- if he created tariffs that enriched himself and his family?

- if stone cold evidence came out of him colluding with Russia on the election?

-if Putin admitted it? 

4) There have been some other cases where Trump allegedly did things that republicans were livid with the Clintons for doing - like hosting his emails on a private server, or "pay to play" politics. Do you believe Trump has done similar things?  If so, does it bother you? 

Please note that this thread is intended for Trump supporters only. I appreciate that there are a lot of people here who don't like Trump, but I'd ask that you hold your comments for other threads. 
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quickhands said:
1) He' been good in some areas.   Supreme Court, deregulation, economy

im against governmental corruption.   I guess i have to weigh his potential corruption to Hillary's certainty.

2) no.   Trump is just doing trump.   Im sure the Nato countries will be happy to see him gone. In 6 plus years.

3) sure there is.   I hate the tarriff crap (except against china.   They have been stealing our tech for years.)  The canada /ally tarriff crap drives nuts.

But to much?   Ill know it when i see it.  I weigh everything by the hillary alternative.

The rest of your examples i dont agree with the premise.

4)  i think the clintons are an order of magnitude worse than the trumps.   They know the back channel enrichment game far better than the trumps.   I dont think trump is doing things specifically for his companies.
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knowledge dropper said:
1) Yes.  He has done good things.  Supreme Court, tax reform, securing the border, N Korea, Out of Iran deal, ISIS has been thwarted, he is addressing our role in Europe which had been kicked down the road for years.  I don’t feel the corruption is worse than any other administration.  He has acted quickly to remove those elements.  

2) There is no long term damage to NATO.  Things have to change.  The world has changed in 60 years.  We spend way to much to defend some of those countries. We have our own problems with our infrastructure that need addressing.  

3). I need stone cold evidence he ordered Russian tampering. If so, then Pence is on the mound.  

4) Probably.  Sadly, our entire political system has become corrupt.  Too much money involved   Money talks.  I wish that would change. It’s everywhere from local to federal level.  
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Uncle Beaker said:
1)  Trump has been exceptionally good for the economy and for America.  Rolling back many of Obamas executive orders was great and adding two conservative supreme court judges was huge.  I don't believe Trump colluded with Russia but if it is proved he colluded then I will fully support impeaching him and would welcome Pence.

2)  Permanantly damaged relationships with allies, omg not even close.

3)  Already adressed above

4)  Clinton was the corrupt one so America avoided a landmine by electing Trump.  The attacks on Trump are sour grapes and childish which started on election night.  
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Ramblin Wreck said:
I think this is why BostonFred is asking for Trump Supporters to be given an opportunity to answer his questions.  Because as soon as someone like you or TF comes in here calling them ignorant it's going to be like the 100 threads here where it's an unproductive back and forth of snarky responses.   I view this as BostonFred trying to have a productive discussion to learn what they are thinking without you guys arguing back and forth every damn comment one of them makes.
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That’s what was happening. I added some questions. Me and Quickhands were having a discussion. TF jumped in with some expertise since he apparently works in that field. Didn’t seem overly preachy.

It’s ok to disagree on stuff like the environment, but I’d expect people be able to explain themselves. If they are wrong about some of their assertions it’s good to know some facts.

The rub is it’s difficult to not have it devolve quickly. 

Seemed good so far.

@quickhands you good with that description?

 
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Long Ball Larry said:
BF's thread so take with a grain of salt, but I think that for the most part what has been going on in the forums hasn't been particularly productive toward achieving common ground.  On occasion, there are thoughts expressed from Trump supporters that are legitimately free of snark, so there is certainly something of value there to consider, but the majority of it gets swallowed up in the back and forth bickering.  Whatever is "needed or deserved" doesn't seem all that important on a message board where we should mostly be seeking to obtain information and postulate ideas with no real objective consequence.  Just letting the information be out there for further consideration over time seems worthwhile to me.
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I think a thread where people are asked to avoid snark and engage entirely on substance and without judgment is a great idea. I would happily participate in that thread.

I think a platform for Trump voters/supporters to express their views and opinions without challenge or being asked to defend them in the face of facts or alternate opinions is silly and antithetical to the entire idea of having a political forum. Nobody else gets this treatment. There's no BLM supporters thread or Communists thread or anti-weed legalization thread or white nationalist thread that is protected from disagreement, even though all of those positions are arguably even less popular around here than Trump.  And frankly I think it's a particularly bad move to provide amplification of certain political views free from challenge when those political views seem to frequently revolve around misleading or false information. That's subjective of course, but discussing is is part of the deal.

 
I like this idea for a thread and see it as no different than the team threads in the locker room or baseball forums.  Same idea, different purview. 

 
roadkill1292 said:
"The reality is 1), The Trump supporters here are a tiny minority of the forum and 2) No offense but the vast majority of the guys good at posting and making strong written arguments are on the other side of Trump supporters. That's just how it is."

How would you like to be on the side that even Joe Bryant pities? Let's give them some space.
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:bag:  No pity at all. I've just been bummed to see one side be such tiny part of the forum. That drastically limits discussion just by the sheer numbers of it. Plus, the way the forum has operated it takes someone that doesn't mind getting kicked a lot to stay here. The easiest way I think of it is I never would stay in this forum if I were a Trump supporter.

So what we've wound up with is just a few people who don't mind their side getting constantly beat up. 

Just my observation. 

 
Joe, are you implying Trump supporters are too weak to handle being questioned or challenged, as TF argues?

 
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The objection to the "no challenge" aspect of Fred's post is important.

It illustrates a difference between arguing and understanding.

If I understood Fred right, he was looking to understand where Trump supporters are. What they think and such. 

If truly understanding is your goal, there is zero need to debate. 

The only questions necessary are clarifying questions so that you can make sure you understand the person.

I think that's what's been tough for people. They want to argue more than they want to understand. 

Or more to the point, they have little interest in understanding as has been said here plenty of times. 

 
Joe Bryant said:
Not at all. I'm saying Bostonfred's post OP was to try and understand where they are. 
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I understand I agree with the point of this thread but I am referring to your comment: "Plus, the way the forum has operated it takes someone that doesn't mind getting kicked a lot to stay here. The easiest way I think of it is I never would stay in this forum if I were a Trump supporter."

 
dutch said:
I understand I agree with the point of this thread but I am referring to your comment: "Plus, the way the forum has operated it takes someone that doesn't mind getting kicked a lot to stay here. The easiest way I think of it is I never would stay in this forum if I were a Trump supporter."
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Just my observation. I would never stick around here if I were a Trump supporter. :shrug:  

 
Joe Bryant said:
The objection to the "no challenge" aspect of Fred's post is important.

It illustrates a difference between arguing and understanding.

If I understood Fred right, he was looking to understand where Trump supporters are. What they think and such. 

If truly understanding is your goal, there is zero need to debate. 

The only questions necessary are clarifying questions so that you can make sure you understand the person.

I think that's what's been tough for people. They want to argue more than they want to understand. 

Or more to the point, they have little interest in understanding as has been said here plenty of times. 
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This is not true at all, or at least it's a very silly goal. If someone's perspective is based entirely on false or contradictory information, that should always be pointed out to the audience.

Say for example someone in the Shark Pool wants to know what my fellow Skins fans and I think of our team's offense this year, and I say that I think Kirk Cousins and Terrelle Pryor are primed to make some real magic now that they've got a full year or working together behind them. I suppose now you technically "understand" my perspective, but to what end?  Why is that a perspective worth understanding and amplifying without challenge on a message board?

 
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TobiasFunke said:
This is not true at all, or at least it's a very silly goal. If someone's perspective is based entirely on false or contradictory information, that should always be pointed out to the audience.

Say for example someone in the Shark Pool wants to know what my fellow Skins fans and I think of our team's offense this year, and I say that I think Kirk Cousins and Terrelle Pryor are primed to make some real magic now that they've got a full year or working together behind them. I suppose now you technically "understand" my perspective, but to what end?  Why is that a perspective worth understanding and amplifying without challenge on a message board?
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Because I don't need to argue with someone to understand them. 

It's that simple. 

Sometimes, it can be just about them. If understanding them is a goal. 

 
fatguyinalittlecoat said:
I would LOVE to be a Trump supporter on this forum.  It’s boring to be in agreement with most people most of the time.
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Understood. But you're unique. You clearly write well and you don't mind a fight. 

The vast majority of people are not that. So they go away. I'm 100% certain of that. 

 
Joe Bryant said:
Just my observation. I would never stick around here if I were a Trump supporter. :shrug:  
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If they are outgunned, and I believe they are, then it is mostly because they have limited ammunition. The president doesn't give his supporters much to work with. But if there is also an element of the less articulate segment of the electorate being especially drawn to Mr. Trump, then that is another avenue which could and should be explored here. 

I appreciate that you're doing what you think is fair. I wouldn't want to take that task on here myself.

 
Joe Bryant said:
Because I don't need to argue with someone to understand them. 

It's that simple. 

Sometimes, it can be just about them. If understanding them is a goal. 
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Correcting someone on the facts is not arguing with them.  I know there's gray areas there, but I also don't get why that's a goal or why this thread is needed to achieve it.  You don't need a judgment-free space to be understood.

If I posted what I said before about the Skins offense and someone pointed out that neither player is with the team any more, would you say that other person is arguing with me, or merely correcting me and giving both me and forum readers better information?  And regardless of the semantics, which do you think is more valuable for all of us and closer to the reasons why you maintain the shark pool in the first place?

 
fatguyinalittlecoat said:
Yeah?  Anyone have a good theory about why one magic football message board would be so pro-Trump and another so anti-Trump?  I never go to FFT so maybe there’s a simple explanation.
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From what I've seen it seems a few of them were posters on here that left because they couldn't stand how many #######s are here and how this place is run.  Things are run pretty loosely there.  Call anyone whatever you want and it seems there are no repercussions.  Hope you don't prefer well written posts with decent punctuation and spelling because you won't find it there.

 
You know what would be a fun exercise to foster debate between Trump supporter/detractor in an environment centered around point-counterpoint discussion with little to no snark and schtick?  Actual legislation talk; not policy promises and goals, but the actual legislative language (proposed or already passed)

Well, it’d be fun to a wonk like me

 
Joe Bryant said:
Because I don't need to argue with someone to understand them. 

It's that simple. 

Sometimes, it can be just about them. If understanding them is a goal. 
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Do you see it as arguing if someone says something like “it seems like so and so is happening, that’s just the way I see it” and they are responded to with “here’s something I know, this is some information that says quite the opposite”

That doesnt seem like an argument.

Granted it doesn’t seem to work that way too often but in theory is that “arguing”?

 
Hawkeye21 said:
From what I've seen it seems a few of them were posters on here that left because they couldn't stand how many #######s are here and how this place is run.  Things are run pretty loosely there.  Call anyone whatever you want and it seems there are no repercussions.  Hope you don't prefer well written posts with decent punctuation and spelling because you won't find it there.
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For some reason I find this fascinating.  Joe’s decision many years ago to make this place PG-13 and to encourage “being excellent” has completely changed the ideological makeup of who posts here.

I might go check out FFT when I have a little time you’ve made me curious.

 
fatguyinalittlecoat said:
For some reason I find this fascinating.  Joe’s decision many years ago to make this place PG-13 and to encourage “being excellent” has completely changed the ideological makeup of who posts here.

I might go check out FFT when I have a little time you’ve made me curious.
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It's on the opposite end of the spectrum.  I enjoy seeing posts from both sides.

 
TobiasFunke said:
Correcting someone on the facts is not arguing with them.  I know there's gray areas there, but I also don't get why that's a goal or why this thread is needed to achieve it.  You don't need a judgment-free space to be understood.

If I posted what I said before about the Skins offense and someone pointed out that neither player is with the team any more, would you say that other person is arguing with me, or merely correcting me and giving both me and forum readers better information?  And regardless of the semantics, which do you think is more valuable for all of us and closer to the reasons why you maintain the shark pool in the first place?
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I may be wrong but I don't think anyone is complaining about correcting one point.  It's the hijacking of the thread that occurred almost immediately by several people who are just looking to argue and not understand as Joe explained.

 
Good thread. Here is a question I have for Trump supporters: one of the most frequent descriptions I hear about you is that you “want the chaos”. Would you say this is accurate? What does “chaos” mean to you? And if you do want this, why? 

 
And one other  question I have, in order to help understand you guys better: when did you become a Trump supporter? During the nomination process or after he became the nominee or since he’s been President? Was there a single statement or action that convinced you? And who had you supported before Trump? 

I guess that’s actually several questions but it’s all in the same direction: give us some history. Thanks. 

 
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Ramblin Wreck said:
I may be wrong but I don't think anyone is complaining about correcting one point.  It's the hijacking of the thread that occurred almost immediately by several people who are just looking to argue and not understand as Joe explained.
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Not trying to harp on this or ruin people’s experience here but I just read the 1st couple pages and it all seemed good. 

It kind of blends into many other threads but seemed like there was good dialogue going on and not snark. 

Seems cool to leave a thread totally for Trump folks but if any discussion is going to happen there will be back and forth. 

 
timschochet said:
And one other  question I have, in order to help understand you guys better: when did you become a Trump supporter? During the nomination process or after he became the nominee or since he’s been President? Was there a single statement or action that convinced you? And who had you supported before Trump? 

I guess that’s actually several questions but it’s all in the same direction: give us some history. Thanks. 
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I voted for Kasich in the primary.  Trump won me over in the debates.  

 
The General said:
Not trying to harp on this or ruin people’s experience here but I just read the 1st couple pages and it all seemed good. 

It kind of blends into many other threads but seemed like there was good dialogue going on and not snark. 

Seems cool to leave a thread totally for Trump folks but if any discussion is going to happen there will be back and forth. 
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I don't really care one way or the other just trying to help BostonFred out because I think his idea is great and I would love to read the thread he wants.  You've been around for a long time and know exactly what would happen if the handful of Trump supporters that haven't been banned or run off show up to this thread.   There would be ten times as many people drilling them with questions and when one goes unanswered they would be accused of dodging the conversation, then someone would come in here and post a snarky response which would get 2 pages of replies itself, then you'd get 12 snarky tweets posted that argue with the person.  Then you'd get responses to that and the discussion is over this thread becomes like 100 other threads here.   

I don't even think Fred is asking for a trump supporter "safe space" as someone called it earlier (which is already starting the snarky crap) but give the thread a few days for people to reply to his questions and have a decent discussion for once.  Joe nailed it but people can't accept it.  Most guys asking questions aren't trying to understand (like Fred is) and just want to argue but they've run off everyone they argue with already.

 
TobiasFunke said:
Don't want to go against the purpose of the thread but the timing on this was pretty amazing- a story about self-dealing broke just in the two hours since your post. 

I'll step aside now and let you all do your thing, appreciate the chance to hear genuine mostly shtick-free reasoning of Trump supporters.
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If this is true

when US officials travel out of the country did previous administrations stay in places for free? 

If....if, I owned property around the world, why would I want to be staying at some other hotel/resort. 

 
Joe Bryant said:
The only questions necessary are clarifying questions so that you can make sure you understand the person.

I think that's what's been tough for people. They want to argue more than they want to understand. 

Or more to the point, they have little interest in understanding as has been said here plenty of times. 
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Bingo

 
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