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Pipes

The New “Dive” Rule

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Why isn’t this being talked about more?  So now if a runner leaves his feet and dives headfirst the ball goes back to the spot of where he began the dive.  No different if a QB slides feet first.  It is considered a give up.  I get trying to make the game safer but this has disaster written all over it.  Some team is going to get screwed on a 4th goal situation.

So with this rule Elways iconic Super Bowl dive and subsequent helicopter would’ve gone back to the spot of the jump.

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22 minutes ago, Pipes said:

So with this rule Elways iconic Super Bowl dive and subsequent helicopter would’ve gone back to the spot of the jump.

Not just that, we've all seen the plays where someone dives to get extra yards, gets hit in the air and the ball pops out. It's no longer a fumble, and the player was down when he left his feet?  This is gonna be crazy, and cause some pretty big outrage when it happens. 

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I don't agree with the rule, but no one is getting screwed during the game here. They all know the new rules. Does a team get screwed if they lineup offsides, strip sack the qb and take the fumble for a touchdown? No they broke the rule. 

Edited by msudaisy26

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And a running back can't dive over the pile at the goal line?  Gotta see how all this is actually called on the field.  Tomorrow night's the first big night of pre-season games.

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50 minutes ago, msudaisy26 said:

I don't agree with the rule, but no one is getting screwed during the game here. They all know the new rules. Does a team get screwed if they lineup offsides, strip sack the qb and take the fumble for a touchdown? No they broke the rule. 

Tell that to Cowboy fans and the catch rule lol.

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21 minutes ago, Pipes said:

Tell that to Cowboy fans and the catch rule lol.

A little different since the catch rule was changed and open to interpretation. This rule isn't. 

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This seems really dumb.

Though at least we presumably will no longer have to roll our eyes at dumb WRs who dive for the pylon and fumble the ball into it for a turnover instead of their team having the ball 1st and goal at the 1.

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So no more somersaults into the end zone? 

No RBs jumping over their linemen on 4th and 1? 

I get the concussion issues but these rules are changing the game too much. 

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What if you simply want to hurdle over a downed defender?  Technically, you are diving straight up.  This has disaster written all over it.

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19 minutes ago, msudaisy26 said:

A little different since the catch rule was changed and open to interpretation. This rule isn't. 

Sure it is.  There will controversy around this for sure.  What if a guy takes a small hop over someone and his feet gets taken out?  Is that a dive?  I am certain different officials will have different interpretations.

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This is going to be a disaster. What if a player is tripped up as he’s heading into the end zone so he stumbles and falls as he crosses? Dive or no? Where do draw that line between a player stumbling down and a player diving? What if a runner breaks loose from a tackle and his momentum from ripping free causes him to lose his footing as he falls into the end zone?

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It's a good thing the networks use ex refs in the booth to explain to us why our team/fantasy player just got screwed by another dumb NFL rule conceived by three blind monkeys.

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I can hear the announcer now... "There he goes, he's got one defender to beat, he just did a perfect high-step like Walter Payton, wait...  and there's the whistle."

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So, what you’re telling me, is that is Derek Carr dives for the pylon and fumbles out of bounds, it goes back to the spot and I get to and subsequently win my league championship rather than drop back to a tie due to a lost fumble? 

Now im just trying to find ways to work this bad beat into any thread:yucky:

Edited by Snorkelson
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We'll see how it's called on the field, but I think people might be misinterpreting the change.  The way I understood it is you're down when you touch the ground at the end of the dive, not when you begin the leap.  So you can still leap over the goalline, etc.  This just doesn't give you any extra yards for sliding once you hit the ground, same as if a QB slides feet first.  

For the record I hate this change and think it's terrible just like everyone else here, but the way it's actually called may not be as disastrous as everyone's imagining. 

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Wait, wut? When/how/why did they sneak this rule change in? The way you guys are describing it sounds like a major change in the game. 

 

Ever since the rookie contracts were reduced Ive spoken about how the NFL has opened the door for a new league to step up into the NFLs arena. These rule changes are another falling brick in the foundation. It will be interesting to see how the XFL does. It's becoming more and more clear that the NFL will eventually turn into touch football and its all because they lied. Had they not lied about the effects of concussions for so long that they painted themselves into a corner and this is the result, the bastardization of the game. 

Edited by STEADYMOBBIN 22

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18 minutes ago, STEADYMOBBIN 22 said:

Wait, wut? When/how/why did they sneak this rule change in. The way you guys are describing it sounds like a major change in the game. 

According to the NFL it's not even a rule change at all, merely a point of emphasis in the existing rule about players giving themselves up by going to the ground.  The reality is we'll have to wait to see how it's called on the field to know how drastic it is.  On one end of the spectrum is the possibility that it's a really minor thing, it just clears up some gray area when a QB is running and decides to crumple to the ground to avoid contact instead of sliding feet first.  On the other end it's possible that for some reason, any dive will be construed as giving yourself up and it will be a major change to the game.  My hope is it's the former but I have very little faith in the NFL to get this right. 

Edited by Ignoratio Elenchi

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1 hour ago, Ignoratio Elenchi said:

The way I understood it is you're down when you touch the ground at the end of the dive, not when you begin the leap.  So you can still leap over the goalline, etc.  This just doesn't give you any extra yards for sliding once you hit the ground, same as if a QB slides feet first.  

The way you describe it makes it not at all the same as if a QB slides feet first. in fact, it sounds like the opposite.

A QB slides feet first they mark the ball down at the moment he begins to go to the ground, not when he touches the ground.

what you're describing is the diver is marked down at the moment he touches the ground. 

Ok, but what about a wr making a dive to catch a ball, is he down when he hits the ground? what about a player who has hurdled a defender, loses balance but remains not touched as he goes to the ground, can he get back up and run?

there are a lot of interpretations to this.

just adopt college rules and be done with it. 

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6 minutes ago, Dr. Dan said:

The way you describe it makes it not at all the same as if a QB slides feet first. in fact, it sounds like the opposite.

A QB slides feet first they mark the ball down at the moment he begins to go to the ground, not when he touches the ground.

what you're describing is the diver is marked down at the moment he touches the ground. 

Eh, by definition if you're sliding, you're already in contact with the ground.  You don't slide through the air.  The point of emphasis from the NFL states that if a runner gives himself up, he is "down where the first body part touches the ground."  

8 minutes ago, Dr. Dan said:

Ok, but what about a wr making a dive to catch a ball, is he down when he hits the ground? what about a player who has hurdled a defender, loses balance but remains not touched as he goes to the ground, can he get back up and run?

there are a lot of interpretations to this.

I agree we have to wait to see how it's called on the field to know exactly how refs will interpret this, but the point is just that they don't want defenders hitting players who are giving themselves up by going to the ground, whether feet first or otherwise.  Diving to catch a ball is not the same thing at all.  In fact I don't think the NFL used the word "dive" at all in explaining the rule so like I said, I think many are misinterpreting the change.  I expect that if you dive to make a catch, you can get up and run with it.  If you dive over the goalline, it's a TD.  Etc., etc.  

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2 minutes ago, Ignoratio Elenchi said:

Eh, by definition if you're sliding, you're already in contact with the ground.  You don't slide through the air.  The point of emphasis from the NFL states that if a runner gives himself up, he is "down where the first body part touches the ground."  

I agree we have to wait to see how it's called on the field to know exactly how refs will interpret this, but the point is just that they don't want defenders hitting players who are giving themselves up by going to the ground, whether feet first or otherwise.  Diving to catch a ball is not the same thing at all.  In fact I don't think the NFL used the word "dive" at all in explaining the rule so like I said, I think many are misinterpreting the change.  I expect that if you dive to make a catch, you can get up and run with it.  If you dive over the goalline, it's a TD.  Etc., etc.  

my understanding is that the ref marks a qb down at the first part of his slide. going from upright to beginning to slide. not when he touches the ground 

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Just now, Dr. Dan said:

my understanding is that the ref marks a qb down at the first part of his slide. going from upright to beginning to slide. not when he touches the ground 

But if he's upright and beginning to slide, he's already touching the ground. 

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16 minutes ago, Ignoratio Elenchi said:

But if he's upright and beginning to slide, he's already touching the ground. 

edit: on second thought I'm not going to try and teach you the mechanics of a slide. not worth my time. you keep thinking a player never leaves the ground during a slide... 

Edited by Dr. Dan

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1 hour ago, Ignoratio Elenchi said:

According to the NFL it's not even a rule change at all, merely a point of emphasis in the existing rule about players giving themselves up by going to the ground.  The reality is we'll have to wait to see how it's called on the field to know how drastic it is.  On one end of the spectrum is the possibility that it's a really minor thing, it just clears up some gray area when a QB is running and decides to crumple to the ground to avoid contact instead of sliding feet first.  On the other end it's possible that for some reason, any dive will be construed as giving yourself up and it will be a major change to the game.  My hope is it's the former but I have very little faith in the NFL to get this right. 

 

:lol:

Crazed over-reaction before people even understand the rule?  Hard to believe this is possible in the Shark Pool.

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Just now, Dr. Dan said:

so we are marking people down because their feet touch the ground?

come on... 

a player is down by a knee, elbow, butt, etc. not their foot. 

Usually you're only down when those body parts touch the ground, but not when you give yourself up by sliding.  

7 minutes ago, Dr. Dan said:

I'd love to see you go from running to sliding while never having a brief period of not contacting the ground at all, even with your feet. that moment of being air born, even if it's short, is where refs will mark a player down

I disagree, and that's literally not what the rule says. 

It seems like what the NFL is now saying is that sliding feet first is not the only way to give yourself up by going to the ground, and this year they will treat those other ways the same as sliding.  So if you crumple to the ground headfirst to avoid contact, you don't get the benefit of any additional yards.  You're down where you first go to the ground, not where you end up, just like when you slide.  I'm just reading what the NFL has said, not trying to interpret it for myself.  There's not much point debating it further until we see how it's actually called on the field.  Like I said, I hope it's a minor player safety thing that we barely even notice, and not the kind of thing that drastically alters the way the game is played.  

 

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From the PFT article:

In 2018, the NFL is considering a player to have given himself up if he dives head first, the same way a player has given himself up when he slides feet first. That means a player can’t be hit after he goes into a head-first dive, and it also means the ball will be spotted at the point where the player began to dive, rather than at the point where the player finished moving forward.

Officials say that’s a major change.

“It’s a big change this year,” line judge Rusty Baynes told ESPN. “Because if you were a runner or a quarterback and you dove head first you could, if you were untouched, get all of that slide. If you went head first. Now, you cannot. It’ll be interesting to see what happens at the goal line.”

So if a player leaves his feet at the 3 and dives to the pylon, it comes back to the 3?

Edited by Amused to Death

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Quote

"If he dives and lands at the 1 and then slides untouched past the goal line, we're going to mark him at the 1," said Hugo Cruz, a down judge on Carl Cheffers' crew. Cruz visited the Cleveland Browns this week.

An NFL video shown this summer to teams and reporters displayed two examples of such dives, one from Houston Texans quarterback Deshaun Watson and another from Green Bay Packers quarterback Aaron Rodgers. 

Reading the actual rule / point of emphasis from the NFL sounds pretty minor.  It doesn't use the word "dive" anywhere, and seems to be intended only to protect players who are giving themselves up by going to the ground.  

Reading some of these quotes from officials is baffling and terrifying.  They seem to be interpreting it differently than the way it seems to be written.  

It would be useful to see the NFL video quoted above, showing examples of plays where this will come into effect.  Until we see it in action it's hard to tell how much of a change this really will be. 

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17 minutes ago, Amused to Death said:

 

So if a player leaves his feet at the 3 and dives to the pylon, it comes back to the 3?

 

No!

Damn, people.  A guy diving for the pylon is not giving himself up, he is trying to gain the yardage needed to score.  Just like a guy diving over the pile, or hurdling, or any other similar play.

This rule is for a guy giving himself up and declining to advance the ball any further.  The tradeoff for giving up trying to gain yardage and going down intentionally without being tackled is that he is now protected from contact.  The rule makes perfect sense and is most probably an effort to get guys to slide feet first instead of head first when giving themselves up in order to provide additional protection so that an opponent coming in late doesn’t blow them up in the helmet.  There is now no advantage to sliding head first to gain an extra yard or two while they give themselves up.

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8 minutes ago, Bronco Billy said:

 

No!

Damn, people.  A guy diving for the pylon is not giving himself up, he is trying to gain the yardage needed to score.  Just like a guy diving over the pile, or hurdling, or any other similar play.

This rule is for a guy giving himself up and declining to advance the ball any further.  The tradeoff for giving up trying to gain yardage and going down intentionally without being tackled is that he is now protected from contact.  The rule makes perfect sense and is most probably an effort to get guys to slide feet first instead of head first when giving themselves up in order to provide additional protection so that an opponent coming in late doesn’t blow them up in the helmet.  There is now no advantage to sliding head first to gain an extra yard or two while they give themselves up.

@Ignoratio Elenchi's post sounds much better.  However the line judge quoted in the PFT article didn't seem as sure.  Admittedly I have not read the rule, I'm strictly going by the PFT article.  However also from the article:

Imagine it’s fourth-and-goal in the final seconds of the game, a quarterback whose team trails by five points drops back to pass, then sees an opening in the middle of the field, runs toward the end zone, and just as a linebacker approaches at the 1-yard line the quarterback dives head-first into the end zone. That won’t be a game-winning touchdown anymore. It will be the quarterback giving himself up at the 1-yard line. 

So a play like the one Wentz was injured on would have come back to the 1 or 2 yard line and no TD*.

*yes, I know there was holding on the play and it wasn't really a TD anyway.

Edited by Amused to Death

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5 minutes ago, Amused to Death said:

@Ignoratio Elenchi's post sounds much better.  However the line judge quoted in the PFT article didn't seem as sure.  Admittedly I have not read the rule, I'm strictly going by the PFT article.  However also from the article:

Imagine it’s fourth-and-goal in the final seconds of the game, a quarterback whose team trails by five points drops back to pass, then sees an opening in the middle of the field, runs toward the end zone, and just as a linebacker approaches at the 1-yard line the quarterback dives head-first into the end zone. That won’t be a game-winning touchdown anymore. It will be the quarterback giving himself up at the 1-yard line. 

So a play like the one Wentz was injured on would have come back to the 1 or 2 yard line and no TD*.

*yes, I know there was holding on the play and it wasn't really a TD anyway.

 

Huh.  So what you are saying is that PFT doesn’t get it either, but wrote an article about it anyhow?

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Couldn't find the NFL video showing examples of the new point of emphasis.  Here's a random 2016 video of Rodgers going to the ground after picking up a first down: http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-highlights/0ap3000000743596/Rodgers-scrambles-for-7-yards-gives-himself-up

I thought this was interesting because the commentator literally says in the video, "Because he slid forward he gets all that slide yardage."  In the play he was marked down around the 18, where the play ended.  Under the new interpretation it will be interesting to see where the ball would be spotted.  The 20?  The 22?  The 24?

 

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9 minutes ago, Bronco Billy said:

 A guy diving for the pylon is not giving himself up, he is trying to gain the yardage needed to score.  Just like a guy diving over the pile, or hurdling, or any other similar play.

I think this is likely how it will play out in real games. Very little will change. Diving for the end zone is not "giving yourself up". I think this rule clarification will be interpreted only in cases where the runner (most often a scrambling QB) is taking a dive because he's about to get tackled. But I guess we'll see. 

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7 minutes ago, Amused to Death said:

Imagine it’s fourth-and-goal in the final seconds of the game, a quarterback whose team trails by five points drops back to pass, then sees an opening in the middle of the field, runs toward the end zone, and just as a linebacker approaches at the 1-yard line the quarterback dives head-first into the end zone. That won’t be a game-winning touchdown anymore. It will be the quarterback giving himself up at the 1-yard line. 

My guess is this is not actually going to be the case.  If it is, then I agree with everyone that it's a complete disaster.  But let's wait to see it called this way on the field for the first time before we all overreact. 

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I think people are misinterpreting the rule also... I refer back to the Giants' Victor Cruz in Arizona play, which was an instance of this rule actually being applied: 

 

https://www.dailymotion.com/video/xlgasi

 

The NFL correctly ruled that he gave himself up and the play was dead, which outraged many fans. In that instance let's say he dove forward an extra 2 yards untouched, then got up. If I understand what's being said, the ball is moved back 2 yards to where he began his dive. They are reinforcing this rule to eliminate the extra contact.

 

Edited by The Frankman

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4 minutes ago, Ignoratio Elenchi said:

My guess is this is not actually going to be the case.  If it is, then I agree with everyone that it's a complete disaster.  But let's wait to see it called this way on the field for the first time before we all overreact. 

Certainly, I'm just reacting to what the article says (with input from a line judge).  :shrug:

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12 minutes ago, Bronco Billy said:

 

Huh.  So what you are saying is that PFT doesn’t get it either, but wrote an article about it anyhow?

Its possible PFT doesn't know what their talking about but that's not me saying it.  I'm just trying to discuss the article as written - complete with a quote from a line judge who questions how it will be called at the goal line.  Hopefully all the refs will be clear on it by the time the season starts and its called consistently in the manner we hope it will be. 

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5 minutes ago, Amused to Death said:

Its possible PFT doesn't know what their talking about but that's not me saying it.  I'm just trying to discuss the article as written - complete with a quote from a line judge who questions how it will be called at the goal line.  Hopefully all the refs will be clear on it by the time the season starts and its called consistently in the manner we hope it will be. 

 

Understood.  I think we need to watch this shake out before we all get our panties in wads.

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1 hour ago, Dr. Dan said:

 

what you're describing is the diver is marked down at the moment he touches the ground. 

Ok, but what about a wr making a dive to catch a ball, is he down when he hits the ground? what about a player who has hurdled a defender, loses balance but remains not touched as he goes to the ground, can he get back up and run?

 

They are not giving themselves up.

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If I was a coach I would 100% instruct players to do each and every action affected by a rule change, from diving to helmet lowering, etc. This would be the only way to get more clarification in a setting that matters. There would be 5+ random dives to try and discern how this rule will affect things. 

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6 minutes ago, steelers1080 said:

If I was a coach I would 100% instruct players to do each and every action affected by a rule change, from diving to helmet lowering, etc. This would be the only way to get more clarification in a setting that matters. There would be 5+ random dives to try and discern how this rule will affect things. 

Problem is, you get all that intel just fine, but then have a different ref crew the next week that rules every one different than the first set.

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14 hours ago, msudaisy26 said:

I don't agree with the rule, but no one is getting screwed during the game here. They all know the new rules. Does a team get screwed if they lineup offsides, strip sack the qb and take the fumble for a touchdown? No they broke the rule. 

Disagree. Fans are definitely getting screwed here.

 

edit - ok, maybe not if this is being misunderstood as posted

Edited by Worm

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15 hours ago, Pipes said:

Why isn’t this being talked about more?  So now if a runner leaves his feet and dives headfirst the ball goes back to the spot of where he began the dive.  No different if a QB slides feet first.  It is considered a give up.  I get trying to make the game safer but this has disaster written all over it.  Some team is going to get screwed on a 4th goal situation.

So with this rule Elways iconic Super Bowl dive and subsequent helicopter would’ve gone back to the spot of the jump.

No.

http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/24277319/ball-spotted-first-touch-head-first-dives

A player who dives head first will now be judged to have given himself up, and the ball will be marked at the point where he first touched the ground.

It's like college now.  If you dive, you're down where you hit the ground.  No sliding, crawling, or otherwise advancing the ball from there.

It takes away one of the advantage runners have, especially QB's, that if the D doesn't hit him he can get up and keep going, but if the D hits him they might get flagged.  Now it's clear - if he's down he's down, you can't hit him, he can't keep gaining yards.  It also helps alleviate the ambiguity from a sideways-ish slide.  Was he head-first?  Can I hit him?  Defenders were in a horrible spot, and this is one of the few great changes made to clear things up for them.  Now they know, hands off if he's going down on his own.

edit: and this is why we shouldn't pay attention to anything PFT says.  They explained the rule change wrong and in such a way to make it sound as stupid as it did.

Edited by Hankmoody
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26 minutes ago, Arodin said:

Problem is, you get all that intel just fine, but then have a different ref crew the next week that rules every one different than the first set.

I think this is where the concern is.  Will diving for the pylon be a TD one week and spotted at the 1 the next. 

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