The New “Dive” Rule (1 Viewer)

Are we sure this is being presented and reported correctly? For starters, does it apply to all players or just QBs? It makes sense if a QB is scrambling and dives to get a first down and the league doesn't want him to get hit. I thought I read that in this type of play, the QB would get the yardage from where he landed but not from the additional yardage for the dive or slide. Basically, he would be called down where the ball or his body hit the ground (even if he wasn't touched and could have gotten more yardage).

That's different than bringing the ball back to where he started the dive. IIRC, when a QB previously had jumped and made a slide, they mark the ball where he first hit the ground, not where he first launched from.

If it is a RB or WR diving forward, many times they are getting hit and lunge for a first down or end zone while already contacted. Again, wouldn't that just be a case of the player is down when his knee / body / elbow hit the ground? What would be different?

I am not sure they are going to just call a play dead unless the refs feel the player is actually giving himself up and intentionally trying to avoid contact. I think we need to see this rule called and under what circumstances before we suggest it is a radical departure in how the game will be officiated.

Hankmoody said:

No.

http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/24277319/ball-spotted-first-touch-head-first-dives

A player who dives head first will now be judged to have given himself up, and the ball will be marked at the point where he first touched the ground.

It's like college now.  If you dive, you're down where you hit the ground.  No sliding, crawling, or otherwise advancing the ball from there.

It takes away one of the advantage runners have, especially QB's, that if the D doesn't hit him he can get up and keep going, but if the D hits him they might get flagged.  Now it's clear - if he's down he's down, you can't hit him, he can't keep gaining yards.  It also helps alleviate the ambiguity from a sideways-ish slide.  Was he head-first?  Can I hit him?  Defenders were in a horrible spot, and this is one of the few great changes made to clear things up for them.  Now they know, hands off if he's going down on his own.

edit: and this is why we shouldn't pay attention to anything PFT says.  They explained the rule change wrong and in such a way to make it sound as stupid as it did.

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I guess we'll have to wait for clarification but I didn't get the sense that it's like college now.  I feel like the situation would be a lot clearer if they were adopting the college rules.  Falling down, or diving to make a catch, or whatever, is not the same thing as giving yourself up by going to the ground.  I think this potentially puts defenders in an even worse spot.  QB has the ball and lunges for the goalline - can I hit him?  If I don't, he scores an easy TD.  If I do, they say he was giving himself up and I get a 15 yard penalty. 

Hopefully this is a conservative change and the refs call it rarely and consistently.  But like I said earlier, I have little faith that the NFL won't mess this up.  

Ignoratio Elenchi said:

I guess we'll have to wait for clarification but I didn't get the sense that it's like college now.  I feel like the situation would be a lot clearer if they were adopting the college rules.  Falling down, or diving to make a catch, or whatever, is not the same thing as giving yourself up by going to the ground.  I think this potentially puts defenders in an even worse spot.  QB has the ball and lunges for the goalline - can I hit him?  If I don't, he scores an easy TD.  If I do, they say he was giving himself up and I get a 15 yard penalty. 

Hopefully this is a conservative change and the refs call it rarely and consistently.  But like I said earlier, I have little faith that the NFL won't mess this up.  

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Good thing the rule change doesn't say any of those things.

Perhaps poor choice of words on my part, it's not entirely like college now, it's only like college when the player dives head first.

Interestingly, the NFL rule book does not reference this change:

https://nflcommunications.com/Documents/2018 - Rule Book.pdf - page 2 is called "2018 rule changes" and there's no mention of it.

Hankmoody said:

Good thing the rule change doesn't say any of those things.

Perhaps poor choice of words on my part, it's not entirely like college now, it's only like college when the player dives head first.

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The "rule change" doesn't appear to say anything about diving either.  We're all just guessing here since we haven't seen the video examples of what would be called, and haven't seen it called in a game yet.  The wording the NFL put out seemed fairly straightforward and not too concerning, but the quotes coming from some officials seem to be interpreting it much more broadly.  

Hankmoody said:

Interestingly, the NFL rule book does not reference this change:

https://nflcommunications.com/Documents/2018 - Rule Book.pdf - page 2 is called "2018 rule changes" and there's no mention of it.

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It's not a rule change, that was noted earlier.  It's a "point of emphasis" of an existing rule.  https://operations.nfl.com/the-rules/2018-rules-changes-and-points-of-emphasis/

Edit: The actual rules in play here may be these:

12-2-6 (d): [Unnecessary roughness] running, diving into, or throwing the body against or on a runner whose forward progress has been stopped, who has slid feet first, or who has declared himself down by going to the ground untouched and has made no attempt to advance (see 7- 2-1-a, d);

7-2-1 (d): [Dead ball] when a runner declares himself down by: (1) falling to the ground, or kneeling, and clearly making no immediate effort to advance. (2) sliding feet-first on the ground. When a runner slides feet-first, the ball is dead the instant he touches the ground with anything other than his hands or his feet.

I actually don't see a reference to diving head-first.  Only to giving oneself up, so I'm not sure where these guys are even getting this stuff.  These guys are sourcing a rule change citing diving head-first when such wording doesn't seem to exist.

https://operations.nfl.com/the-rules/2018-rules-changes-and-points-of-emphasis/

Protection of Runners Who Give Themselves Up

The Committee clarified the protections for sliding quarterbacks and any runner who gives himself up: 

Explore the NFL Video Rulebook.

If a runner (including a quarterback) gives himself up, then he is down where the first body part touches the ground. The runner should not benefit from additional yardage after the first body part touches. Defenders do not have to go down to initiate contact to stop a runner from gaining more yards after he contacts the ground.

Quarterbacks and all runners must give themselves up early, and if a defender has committed to a tackle, contact may occur. However, that contact cannot be late or to the head or neck area of the player who gave himself up.

A quarterback does not have to slide feet first to be considered to be giving himself up. Regardless whether the slide is feet first or head first, as long as he gives himself up, he should receive the protections afforded to him as a player in a defenseless posture. 

Hankmoody said:

I actually don't see a reference to diving head-first.  Only to giving oneself up, so I'm not sure where these guys are even getting this stuff.  These guys are sourcing a rule change citing diving head-first when such wording doesn't seem to exist.

https://operations.nfl.com/the-rules/2018-rules-changes-and-points-of-emphasis/

Protection of Runners Who Give Themselves Up

The Committee clarified the protections for sliding quarterbacks and any runner who gives himself up: 

Explore the NFL Video Rulebook.

If a runner (including a quarterback) gives himself up, then he is down where the first body part touches the ground. The runner should not benefit from additional yardage after the first body part touches. Defenders do not have to go down to initiate contact to stop a runner from gaining more yards after he contacts the ground.

Quarterbacks and all runners must give themselves up early, and if a defender has committed to a tackle, contact may occur. However, that contact cannot be late or to the head or neck area of the player who gave himself up.

A quarterback does not have to slide feet first to be considered to be giving himself up. Regardless whether the slide is feet first or head first, as long as he gives himself up, he should receive the protections afforded to him as a player in a defenseless posture. 

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The last line you cited states "head first." Wouldn't that be a reference to diving head-first?

Basically, it sounds like the league is going to crack down on players giving themselves up by sliding head first, which they will interpret a dive as sliding head first.

I'll believe it when I see it, but that sounds like what people are talking about.

Bronco Billy said:

Understood.  I think we need to watch this shake out before we all get our panties in wads.

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But it’s way more gratifying complaining about it now. 

Anarchy99 said:

The last line you cited states "head first." Wouldn't that be a reference to diving head-first?

Basically, it sounds like the league is going to crack down on players giving themselves up by sliding head first, which they will interpret a dive as sliding head first.

I'll believe it when I see it, but that sounds like what people are talking about.

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Well it specifically says a slide, which is pretty visibly different from a dive.  No one has ever said "and LT slides over the pile to get into the end zone!".  I do agree though that there's some ambiguity there, and I think the focus is supposed to be on players "giving themselves up" rather than "diving" and thus the media likely over-sensationalized this one on us.

Still working my way through the week 1 preseason games, did anyone happen to see this called or even discussed anywhere in any of the games?  I haven't seen it, nor have I heard any mention of it (but I'm watching the condensed games so I miss most of the commentary).  Have seen players dive to make catches and get up and run, etc.  Thinking my initial suspicion was right that this was being blown out of proportion, though of course I also think it'll inevitably happen at the goalline in a regular season game and be controversial. 

Edit: "Called" is probably the wrong word, it's not a penalty or anything, but I rewound a handful of plays I've seen so far where a runner dives for yardage and the ball is spotted where I'd expect it to be.