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JohnnyU

Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez Thread

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1 hour ago, KarmaPolice said:

I do listen to him, and that's where I first heard of Shapiro.  He doesn't have that many political guests though.  I also listen to Waking Up, which also keeps it civil and has a decent guests and topics, but it's pretty one sided.  

I do like Left, Right, and Center - I just wish it were longer and on more than 1x per week.  

You are correct it is not a political show but he has major podcast people on from both sides and they hate that.  They are the partisan people.  He calls out bs on both sides.  One in 10 might be a political guest.

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On 8/9/2018 at 4:53 PM, TobiasFunke said:

He’s more than welcome to spend that $10,000 to rent a place in her district and run for Congress. Then he could debate her a bunch of times, and with actual stakes.  

Probably should ask yourself why he’s doing this instead.  

Apparently Tobias has access to the 4am talking points because that is the exact phrase that everyone was using in response to Shapiro's offer. 

Bizarre.

 

Has there ever been anyone else in history who was told "you can't have an interview/debate on the air like normal people, you have to move to her district and run against her if you want a debate"?

This woman has gone on dozens of shows for interviews in the last month and nobody told the host they had to run for office if they wanted to ask her questions. 

:lmao:

 

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On 8/9/2018 at 4:51 PM, [scooter] said:

Right. Just like all those debates on YouTube where a creationist "slaughters" a scientist, and then when you click on the link, all you see is a scientist speaking in calm, rational tones, followed by the creationist screaming "TORNADO IN A JUNKYARD! SCOREBOARD BABY! PWNED!"

:lmao:

Another person who obviously has no idea who Shapiro is he is just spouting off mindless nonsense. 

Hint: Shapiro hates Trump. Shapiro is regarded as one of the most intelligent political debaters in America right now. Oh, and Shapiro hates Trump. 

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On 8/9/2018 at 5:01 PM, TobiasFunke said:

If that’s the case he can do what I said.  

He’s doing this instead because he knows she can’t say yes or every dog-whistling idiot with a fan base would feel like they could buy their way onto the stage with her or get the free publicity by insulting her double standard if she refuses. He’s literally trying to buy his way onto a stage he’s too weak or scared to earn by, you know, actually being a candidate. 

And of course if she says no she’s looks like she’s scared and he still gets his publicity except for free.

It’s a pathically transparent move that he knows he can get away with because his audience isn’t smart enough to see through it. 

:lmao:

Can't go 2 posts without using the phrase dog whistle. 

Lemme guess, your next post is going to blame toxic masculinity?

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On 8/9/2018 at 5:12 PM, TobiasFunke said:

He doesnt need to do anything.  But if he wants to try to convince people that his ideas are better than hers he should do it the normal way instead of this pathetic, cowardly, transparent publicity move that all but the dumbest people in America can see right through.

So you are calling anyone who thinks a civil debate is a good idea "the dumbest people in America"?

If I was a little ##### I would you report you for hate speech.

 

And provide one example of a person in the media who moved to someone else's district and ran for office just so they could have a debate. 

I really hope you use toxic masculinity or racist in your next post so I can get BINGO

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On 8/9/2018 at 5:39 PM, Dickies said:

Love you GB, but this is a losing argument.  He shouldn't have to rent an apartment and run for Congress to debate her, but it would be nice if he reached out to her directly without all the hoopla.

:goodposting:

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12 minutes ago, NFL2DF said:

:lmao:

Another person who obviously has no idea who Shapiro is he is just spouting off mindless nonsense. 

Hint: Shapiro hates Trump. Shapiro is regarded as one of the most intelligent political debaters in America right now. Oh, and Shapiro hates Trump. 

That's not accurate to say he hates Trump.  

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6 hours ago, KarmaPolice said:

I do like Left, Right, and Center - I just wish it were longer and on more than 1x per week.  

I should probably post this in the podcast thread but they just started a new one: All the President's Lawyers about all the legal issues facing this presidency. It is really good as well.

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8 hours ago, bananafish said:

I should probably post this in the podcast thread but they just started a new one: All the President's Lawyers about all the legal issues facing this presidency. It is really good as well.

Interesting.  Trump, Inc is a good listen too. 

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9 hours ago, bananafish said:

I should probably post this in the podcast thread but they just started a new one: All the President's Lawyers about all the legal issues facing this presidency. It is really good as well.

The Ezra Klein podcast with Adam Davidson about Trump's corruption was really good too.  MT posted a link in another thread.

Every time one of Trump's supporters says he's a successful businessman I think I'll link to the podcast

https://www.stitcher.com/podcast/vox/the-ezra-klein-show/e/55606470

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58 minutes ago, Dickies said:

 

Every time one of Trump's supporters says he's a successful businessman 

People still say that? 

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28 minutes ago, KarmaPolice said:

I wonder what criteria they are using.  

The new Fox News criteria. People hear it there and take their word as gospel. 

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39 minutes ago, KarmaPolice said:

I wonder what criteria they are using.  

Same as everything else. Trump’s lies.

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17 hours ago, Insomniac said:

George Orwell once wrote "The word Fascism has now no meaning except in so far as it signifies something not desirable". The word Socialism has the same lack of meaning for many conservatives.

Literal socialism is really stupid and bad. But most of the things people label "socialism" these days don't really have much to do with socialism.

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1 hour ago, KarmaPolice said:

I wonder what criteria they are using.  

His alleged net worth.

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3 hours ago, KarmaPolice said:

I wonder what criteria they are using.  

Not their brain. Nor objective facts. Nor literally decades of History.

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13 minutes ago, Officer Pete Malloy said:
17 hours ago, NFL2DF said:

:lmao:

Shapiro is regarded as one of the most intelligent political debaters in America right now. 

How many Shapiro debates have you seen?

:subscribed:

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1 hour ago, Officer Pete Malloy said:

How many Shapiro debates have you seen?

I watched the one where right wingers claimed he destroyed Maher.  It wasn’t at all like they claimed.

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23 hours ago, Maurile Tremblay said:

Literal socialism is really stupid and bad. But most of the things people label "socialism" these days don't really have much to do with socialism.

Yes, but it's really stupid to run as a socialist, given how damaged the label is by real world socialism.  I would never vote for someone claiming to be a Democratic Socialist, nor would I vote for a person claiming to be a Democratic Fascist.  If people are so ignorant of the historical associations they conjure up, they are too stupid to vote for.

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3 minutes ago, Soonerman said:

Yes, but it's really stupid to run as a socialist, given how damaged the label is by real world socialism.  I would never vote for someone claiming to be a Democratic Socialist, nor would I vote for a person claiming to be a Democratic Fascist.  If people are so ignorant of the historical associations they conjure up, they are too stupid to vote for.

Because I take the time to understand someone's politics more so than a label, I would potentially if their values align with mine.

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2 hours ago, Soonerman said:

Yes, but it's really stupid to run as a socialist, given how damaged the label is by real world socialism.  I would never vote for someone claiming to be a Democratic Socialist, nor would I vote for a person claiming to be a Democratic Fascist.  If people are so ignorant of the historical associations they conjure up, they are too stupid to vote for.

Those terms can become normalized over time. More and more of us are very comfortable with the term "Democratic Socialist" and growing numbers of really stupid people wouldn't mind living in a fascist America and calling it as such.

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3 hours ago, Soonerman said:

Yes, but it's really stupid to run as a socialist, given how damaged the label is by real world socialism.  I would never vote for someone claiming to be a Democratic Socialist, nor would I vote for a person claiming to be a Democratic Fascist.  If people are so ignorant of the historical associations they conjure up, they are too stupid to vote for.

This is probablyt true for many. I wish people would get passed labels and look at the actual positions 

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On 8/10/2018 at 8:52 PM, NFL2DF said:

:lmao:

Another person who obviously has no idea who Shapiro is he is just spouting off mindless nonsense. 

Hint: Shapiro hates Trump. Shapiro is regarded as one of the most intelligent political debaters in America right now. Oh, and Shapiro hates Trump. 

How many Shapiro debates have you seen?

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13 hours ago, The Commish said:

This is probablyt true for many. I wish people would get passed labels and look at the actual positions 

Oh, I look at the positions also.  So far it's been pretty straightforward.  I hate the positions of everyone that has identified as a Democratic Socialist, and I'm sure I will hate the positions of anyone that identifies as a Democratic Fascist.

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1 hour ago, Soonerman said:

Oh, I look at the positions also.  So far it's been pretty straightforward.  I hate the positions of everyone that has identified as a Democratic Socialist, and I'm sure I will hate the positions of anyone that identifies as a Democratic Fascist.

What specifically do you hate?

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2 hours ago, Soonerman said:

Oh, I look at the positions also.  So far it's been pretty straightforward.  I hate the positions of everyone that has identified as a Democratic Socialist, and I'm sure I will hate the positions of anyone that identifies as a Democratic Fascist.

What specifically do you hate?

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I'm going to assume he hates the socialist part. 

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On ‎8‎/‎11‎/‎2018 at 3:12 PM, Maurile Tremblay said:

Literal socialism is really stupid and bad. But most of the things people label "socialism" these days don't really have much to do with socialism.

I agree but why then use the term socialist? Would any say..Democratic-Communist? We have democrats, progressive democrats, democrats-socialists.  Just run as a democrat or is that not possible anymore?

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6 minutes ago, Da Guru said:

I agree but why then use the term socialist? Would any say..Democratic-Communist? We have democrats, progressive democrats, democrats-socialists.  Just run as a democrat or is that not possible anymore?

I suspect it's because "Democrat" these days is essentially traditional GOP lite (not Trump's version of the GOP).  Pretty middle of the road and closer to big business than points in the past.  There are two groups in the party now and one group wants to distinguish itself from the other.  The funniest part of this whole "controversy" is no one's seemed to have a problem with medicare, public health clinics or public K-12 education right on down the line.  All of which are examples of democratic socialism.

Edited by The Commish
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1 minute ago, Da Guru said:

I agree but why then use the term socialist? Would any say..Democratic-Communist? We have democrats, progressive democrats, democrats-socialists.  Just run as a democrat or is that not possible anymore?

Plenty of parties in other countries use the word socialism to describe themselves as left-leaning, I don't think it has the same negative connotation as Communist for most people.  Running as a Democrat doesn't really identify what wing of the Democratic Party you identify with, people like Bernie Sanders and Ocasio-Cortez want to make clear that they aren't fully aligned with the more centrist Dems.

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I love the classic bully tactic. She won't do because she knows she would lose or is afraid or guilty. 

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13 minutes ago, The Commish said:

I suspect it's because "Democrat" these days is essentially traditional GOP lite (not Trump's version of the GOP).  Pretty middle of the road and closer to big business than points in the past.  There are two groups in the party now and one group wants to distinguish itself from the other.  The funniest part of this whole "controversy" is no one's seemed to have a problem with medicare, public health clinics or public K-12 education right on down the line.  All of which are examples of democratic socialism.

You can add police, fire departments, public roads, military.  For some reason though people have issues when it comes to universal healthcare and higher education.

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3 hours ago, Soonerman said:

Oh, I look at the positions also.  So far it's been pretty straightforward.  I hate the positions of everyone that has identified as a Democratic Socialist, and I'm sure I will hate the positions of anyone that identifies as a Democratic Fascist.

Including the position that we need to relook our priories considering how much we spread on the military and associated policies that engrain us in constant conflict while doing a pretty crap job here at home on any number of fronts (healthcare, education to know two)?

I mean, you don't need to be a socialist to at least agree in that, even if the Strategies by which to accomplish such a change of priority could look starkly different between you and they.

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5 minutes ago, Amused to Death said:
23 minutes ago, The Commish said:

I suspect it's because "Democrat" these days is essentially traditional GOP lite (not Trump's version of the GOP).  Pretty middle of the road and closer to big business than points in the past.  There are two groups in the party now and one group wants to distinguish itself from the other.  The funniest part of this whole "controversy" is no one's seemed to have a problem with medicare, public health clinics or public K-12 education right on down the line.  All of which are examples of democratic socialism.

You can add police, fire departments, public roads, military.  For some reason though people have issues when it comes to universal healthcare and higher education

I was trying not to pile on  ;) 

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I don't like the term Democratic Socialism. Wikipedia defines it as basically economic socialism combined with democracy (to distinguish it from the Marx-Lenin version that rejects democracy). That definition is probably based on how the term is typically used in Europe. The American version, as popularized by Sanders (?), doesn't seem to embrace economic socialism to a very large extent.

In general, socialism is the idea that central planning is preferable to blind market forces (and that the means of production should therefore be owned publicly and organized by the workers). A variant is market socialism, which likes the pricing aspect of markets, just not the private profit aspect. Think of it as public or social ownership of the means of production operating within a market system for buying and selling inputs and outputs -- like a somewhat normal economy except that all businesses are non-profits.

Some of Bernie's preferred policies kind of fit the idea of market socialism (Medicare for all), but I don't get the idea that he wants to overhaul the entire economy in that vein. (Just 1/6 of it.)

When Jon Lovett asked Ocasio-Cortez how Democratic Socialism differed from what regular Democrats believe, she didn't have an answer. (I don't remember her exact words -- something along the lines of having to be pragmatic -- but I remember that her answer was non-responsive.)

I think if someone is going to adopt that label, she should be able to talk about what it means in Europe, how it's different here, how it differs from regular socialism and market socialism, and how it differs from what other Democrats believe.

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Not to get too defensive of this particular candidate, but there seems to be something in this thread and the Warren thread that seems a bit off.

So we have a President who can barely read, but a young Congressional hopeful who would be charged with representing her district in Queens needs to be able to define and speak to the global nuances of a political label that has far broader implications than representing her district faithfully?

I would agree that if she was a Presidential candidate, she should be able to speak more eloquently to those details, and I believe she will get there with experience. But on the other hand, we have a President who isn't clear on what constitutes the United Kingdom, so it seems a bit suspect that her bar should be set that high, given the office she is seeking, and the current state of standards being set by the highest office in the land.

TL:DR: We're holding people to standards now?

Edited by Grace Under Pressure
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2 hours ago, Amused to Death said:

You can add police, fire departments, public roads, military.  For some reason though people have issues when it comes to universal healthcare and higher education.

..and ironically the people that seem to say "socialist" like it's a swear word are the one's that claim to be the biggest backers of these examples.  

Would it take less time to list the programs we have that aren't socialist in nature?

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7 minutes ago, KarmaPolice said:

..and ironically the people that seem to say "socialist" like it's a swear word are the one's that claim to be the biggest backers of these examples.  

Would it take less time to list the programs we have that aren't socialist in nature?

These anti-Socialists must be really pissed about the new farm subsidies due to the tariffs.   Are we still giving nearly 5 Billion a year in oil subsidies?  Talk about socialist policies.  Can't fund health care though - socialism!!one!

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6 minutes ago, Amused to Death said:

These anti-Socialists must be really pissed about the new farm subsidies due to the tariffs.   Are we still giving nearly 5 Billion a year in oil subsidies?  Talk about socialist policies.  Can't fund health care though - socialism!!one!

So when JohnnyU says that America between the coasts reject these socialist ideas, I assume he means they want to do away with all these programs to, right?

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Just now, KarmaPolice said:

So when JohnnyU says that America between the coasts reject these socialist ideas, I assume he means they want to do away with all these programs to, right?

Only if they aren't hypocrites. "Socialism, bad!".

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11 minutes ago, KarmaPolice said:

So when JohnnyU says that America between the coasts reject these socialist ideas, I assume he means they want to do away with all these programs to, right?

You just don't understand. Subsidies for poor people are bad, subsidies for rich corporations are good. One is welfare, the other is just a necessary part of (crony) capitalism.

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1 hour ago, Amused to Death said:

These anti-Socialists must be really pissed about the new farm subsidies due to the tariffs.   Are we still giving nearly 5 Billion a year in oil subsidies?  Talk about socialist policies.  Can't fund health care though - socialism!!one!

Anti-socialist checking in.  I hate farm subsidies, tariffs, and oil subsidies.  HTH.

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1 hour ago, Grace Under Pressure said:

Not to get too defensive of this particular candidate, but there seems to be something in this thread and the Warren thread that seems a bit off.

So we have a President who can barely read, but a young Congressional hopeful who would be charged with representing her district in Queens needs to be able to define and speak to the global nuances of a political label that has far broader implications than representing her district faithfully?

If you're asking whether we should hold Congressional hopefuls to a higher bar than the one our current President is able to clear, the answer is a resounding yes. We should.

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8 minutes ago, IvanKaramazov said:
1 hour ago, Amused to Death said:

These anti-Socialists must be really pissed about the new farm subsidies due to the tariffs.   Are we still giving nearly 5 Billion a year in oil subsidies?  Talk about socialist policies.  Can't fund health care though - socialism!!one!

Anti-socialist checking in.  I hate farm subsidies, tariffs, and oil subsidies.  HTH.

Also, those subsidies and tariffs are more mercantilist than socialist, IMO.

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2 hours ago, Grace Under Pressure said:

Not to get too defensive of this particular candidate, but there seems to be something in this thread and the Warren thread that seems a bit off.

So we have a President who can barely read, but a young Congressional hopeful who would be charged with representing her district in Queens needs to be able to define and speak to the global nuances of a political label that has far broader implications than representing her district faithfully?

I would agree that if she was a Presidential candidate, she should be able to speak more eloquently to those details, and I believe she will get there with experience. But on the other hand, we have a President who isn't clear on what constitutes the United Kingdom, so it seems a bit suspect that her bar should be set that high, given the office she is seeking, and the current state of standards being set by the highest office in the land.

TL:DR: We're holding people to standards now?

Stop setting the bar at Trump.  

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