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Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez Thread (2 Viewers)

TobiasFunke said:
Honestly I can't believe it's even controversial to say that conservative media targets AOC in part because of her race, gender and age.  To me it's as obvious as saying that the sun rises in the east. She's a frigging first term congresswoman.  Matt Gaetz says far stupider and more controversial things than AOC has ever said on a daily basis and he gets maybe 1% of the attention from "liberal" media that she gets from conservative media. Mark Pocan is probably just as far to the left as AOC and has offering up provocative quotes for years now, and I'd bet my life that there aren't three conservative posters here who even recognize his name.
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It's on the same scale but claiming conservative media targets AOC is different from you making the claim some posters here probably  "love to hate on young women of color."? 

 
TobiasFunke said:
Well a lot of them voted for a bigoted misogynist reality TV star who is almost impossibly corrupt, who lacks even a middle school student's understanding of the Constitution and the functions of the federal government, who rose to conservative political prominence by falsely claiming that Barack Obama was lying about being an American, and whose background/moral character and politics go against virtually everything they previously claimed to stand for, because conservative news media embraced him and covered up those sins.

That's not the entire reason I think that, or even most of it, but it seems like more than adequate justification by itself.
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If your backup for making the accusation people here "love to hate on young women of color", you need to do better than "because they voted for Trump". Full Stop. 

 
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jon_mx said:
How many of the 435 are presidential candidates fighting for their endorsement?   Pretty much just this one.  It doesn't make logical sense, but that is the way it is. 
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I do not disagree with the premise that the obsession with her, from both sides, is absurd.  I figure it's similar to Trump, in that she is incredibly outspoken, and speaks directly to the most passionate parts of the left's base.  

I also do not support the theory that it's driven primarily by her being a woman of color.  She isn't the only woman of color that won a seat in the fall of 18, she is however the most outspoken.  Not only outspoken, but tending to be extreme in her views.  She provides plenty of fodder for both sides.

I guess the part I don't get is why the people obsess over her.  We can blame the media for pushing her so much, but it's not hard to tune her and the stories about her out.  The co-worker I referenced earlier declares her a massive threat to our very democracy, yet cannot answer me what impact she is having on us here in SE Michigan.

 
zoonation said:
No, they are qualitatively different IMO.  calling what is happening at the southern border a "concentration camp" is, arguably, somewhat hyperbolic.  But it is, at its core, accurate. 

If all Trump did was sprinkle a little hyperbole around to make a larger (in this case social justice) point, then they would be substantively similar.  But that is not what Trump does.
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No. It isn’t. And by saying so I’m not sure you get what the concentration camps (and gulags, the Russian versions) were all about. That would take to long to describe here but their horribleness was not an issue of lack of supplies or separating families. Or put it this way: in these refugee camps, when somebody dies, it makes the national news. Now, nobody should die; that’s an awful thing. But in a real concentration camp (not a death camp) death is a daily occurrence. 

As for AOC, I believe that by making this comparison she was deliberately trying to sensationalize what is happening at the border. Beyond the fact that this is, IMO, unnecessary, as I wrote I think it hurts rather than helps. That is because, as a general rule, the key to winning almost all political debate in this centrist country of ours is to be able to place yourself as reasonable and your opponent as extremist. AOC, by making such comments, is allowing conservatives to paint her, and by implication other liberals on this issue, as extremist. 

 
Does anyone remember how bullied Sarah Palin was by the left?  This goes both ways.

Doesn't matter if it is a woman, or a woman of color or whatever else you wanna try to blame it on....dumb is still dumb.

 
Mene said:
 The co-worker I referenced earlier declares her a massive threat to our very democracy, yet cannot answer me what impact she is having on us here in SE Michigan.
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Also ask the co-worker how she is a "massive threat to our very democracy." Actually, that question could be asked on this board as well.

 
supermike80 said:
Does anyone remember how bullied Sarah Palin was by the left?  This goes both ways.

Doesn't matter if it is a woman, or a woman of color or whatever else you wanna try to blame it on....dumb is still dumb.
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And, AOC is no where near dumb nor has any connection to the idea of "dumb."

 
Joe Bryant said:
If you're going to make the accusation people here "love to hate on young women of color" you need to do better than "they voted for Trump". Full Stop. 
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I didn't make an accusation.  You asked me a question about my opinion, and I answered honestly.  If you don't want an honest answer, don't ask the question.

And I carefully avoided levying that charge against specific posters, or even the majority of them. In fact I said the opposite.

This is now twice today that you've mischaracterized my posts in a way that seems designed to make me look bad. You know I'm a fan of your work and the community you've helped build, but it's hard not to take that personally. If you want me to leave, just ask me.

 
timschochet said:
No. It isn’t. And by saying so I’m not sure you get what the concentration camps (and gulags, the Russian versions) were all about. That would take to long to describe here but their horribleness was not an issue of lack of supplies or separating families. Or put it this way: in these refugee camps, when somebody dies, it makes the national news. Now, nobody should die; that’s an awful thing. But in a real concentration camp (not a death camp) death is a daily occurrence. 

As for AOC, I believe that by making this comparison she was deliberately trying to sensationalize what is happening at the border. Beyond the fact that this is, IMO, unnecessary, as I wrote I think it hurts rather than helps. That is because, as a general rule, the key to winning almost all political debate in this centrist country of ours is to be able to place yourself as reasonable and your opponent as extremist. AOC, by making such comments, is allowing conservatives to paint her, and by implication other liberals on this issue, as extremist. 
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I know what "concentration camps" from the WWII and Cold War eras were all about.  I am a history nerd about that #### (although not nearly as well versed in the subject as you, admittedly).  I was talking more academically and how the term is defined (as in the Esquire piece, for example).  You seemed focused more on the effect rather than the mechanism.  which is fair, I guess.

I don't think AOC cares about how conservatives paint her.  That is never going to be a war she will win.  As to the bolded, I would have agreed with you right up until the first week of November 2016.  That is clearly not the case anymore.

AOC has the high ground on this issue because, regardless of how hyperbolic her statement was, the essence of her point is fundamentally correct.   I wouldn't be too worried about the "it's not THAT bad" crowd.

 
I don’t think there’s any simple explanation was to why AOC is the focus of such attention. To quote a line from one of my favorite TV shows, she has a “watchable quality”.  But how to define this I don’t know. What makes certain public figures more popular than others? 

In AOC’s case I think almost all of the explanations here are at least a little of the truth: because she’s young. Because she’s attractive. Because she’s a woman of color. Because she’s a leftist. Because she’s smart. Because she’s an idiot. Because conservatives think that liberals are obsessed with her. Because liberals think that conservatives are obsessed with her. Because there are some liberals and some conservatives who really are obsessed with her. 

And along with all that there is luck, and that “watchable quality” which is so hard to define. 

 
This isn't some mystery. When you call for $93 Trillion dollar plans that eliminate gas powered automobiles, very vocally call out Amazon, and say that concentration camps have been established at the US border with Mexico, you know exactly what you're doing. And the attention drawn to oneself, good and bad, is not only self-inflicted, it's what you were aiming for. The media isn't to blame for the attention on AOC. AOC is to blame for the attention she receives. Just the way she and her handlers want it.

 
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zoonation said:
AOC has the high ground on this issue because, regardless of how hyperbolic her statement was, the essence of her point is fundamentally correct.   I wouldn't be too worried about the "it's not THAT bad" crowd.
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Trump supporters feel they have the high ground on illegal immigration and his lies are fundamentally correct.  

You either stay truthful and fair in your criticism or the discussion ends up in the toilet.  Rationalizing your side's bs contributes to where we are today 

 
zoonation said:
I know what "concentration camps" from the WWII and Cold War eras were all about.  I am a history nerd about that #### (although not nearly as well versed in the subject as you, admittedly).  I was talking more academically and how the term is defined (as in the Esquire piece, for example).  You seemed focused more on the effect rather than the mechanism.  which is fair, I guess.

I don't think AOC cares about how conservatives paint her.  That is never going to be a war she will win.  As to the bolded, I would have agreed with you right up until the first week of November 2016.  That is clearly not the case anymore.

AOC has the high ground on this issue because, regardless of how hyperbolic her statement was, the essence of her point is fundamentally correct.   I wouldn't be too worried about the "it's not THAT bad" crowd.
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The essence of her point was the comparison to concentration camps.  It was a fundamentally incorrect comparison.  The primary purpose of WW2 concentration camps was to facilitate genocide.

 
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Mr Anonymous said:
This isn't some mystery. When you call for $93 Trillion dollar plans that eliminate gas powered automobiles, very vocally call out Amazon, and say that concentration camps have been established at the US border with Mexico, you know exactly what you're doing. And the attention drawn to oneself, good and bad, is not only self-inflicted, it's what you were aiming for. The media isn't to blame for the attention on AOC. AOC is to blame for the attention she receives. Just the way her and her handlers want it.
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Should that not be "she and her handlers"?

 
jonessed said:
The essence of her point was the comparison to concentration camps.  It was a fundamentally incorrect comparison.  The primary purpose of WW2 concentration camps was to facilitate genocide.
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Did she say they were running concentration camps identical to those in WW2, or did she just say there were concentration camps? If it's the latter, why did you bring up the former?  That seems unfair to her.

 
TobiasFunke said:
Did she say they were running concentration camps identical to those in WW2, or did she just say there were concentration camps? If it's the latter, why did you bring up the former?  That seems unfair to her.
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It's not unfair at all. She brought this on and people will be critical of her using the term concentration camps because when people hear that phrase they think of Nazi Germany.

 
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urbanhack said:
Looks like a great website.  Here is their main navigation menu for the entire site:

ABORTION

DONALD TRUMP

CRIME

VIOLENCE

ALEXANDRIA OCASIO-CORTEZ

2020 ELECTION
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All due respect GB, but you don't need to focus on the website that posted the article to trash the poll. The pollster was a PAC called "Stop the AOC." I mean ...

 
Mario Kart said:
Thank you for continuing to prove the points I make here.
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The point that if you see news you don't like you go after the source.

https://www.newsmax.com/politics/alexandria-ocasio-cortez-aoc-bronx-constituents/2019/03/31/id/909467/

https://ijr.com/aoc-constituents-would-not-vote-to-re-elect/

Ocasio-Cortez ran into similar polling troubles in a Gallup poll earlier this year which found that 40% of American adults had a negative view of the freshman representative, as IJR Red previously reported.

 
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TobiasFunke said:
Did she say they were running concentration camps identical to those in WW2, or did she just say there were concentration camps? If it's the latter, why did you bring up the former?  That seems unfair to her.
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Particularly since concentration camps were run in this country during WW2

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internment_of_Japanese_Americans

Internment of Japanese Americans

The internment of Japanese Americans in the United States during World War II was the forced relocation and incarceration in concentration camps in the western interior of the country of between 110,000 and 120,000[5] people of Japanese ancestry, most of whom lived on the Pacific coast. Sixty-two percent of the internees were United States citizens.[6][7] These actions were ordered by President Franklin D. Roosevelt shortly after Imperial Japan's attack on Pearl Harbor.[8]

 
So if I'm following this thread accurately, we currently have two discussions going on.

In one, conservatives are attempting to argue that a poll conducted by the "Stop the AOC" PAC shows AOC with unfavorable numbers in her district :mellow:

In the other, conservatives are trying to argue that AOC was out of line when she evoked WW2 concentration camps whose primary purpose was genocide (even though she didn't actually say anything about WW2 or Nazis), because the detention centers at the border are merely run of the mill internment camps where minorities only die due to neglect and children merely suffer psychological scarring attributable to Trump administration policy.

Great stuff all around.

 
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TobiasFunke said:
So if I'm following this thread accurately, we currently have two discussions going on.

In one, conservatives are attempting to argue that a poll conducted by the "Stop the AOC" PAC shows AOC with unfavorable numbers in her district :mellow:

In the other, conservatives are trying to argue that AOC was out of line when she evoked WW2 concentration camps whose primary purpose was genocide (even though she didn't actually say anything about WW2 or Nazis), because the detention centers at the border are merely run of the mill internment camps where minorities only die due to neglect and children merely suffer psychological scarring attributable to Trump administration policy.

Great stuff all around.
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Facts...there was a poll done that show her with unfavorable numbers. A Gallup earlier this year showed her with unfavorable numbers. And yes, she used the term concentration camps and of course people will equate that term to WW2 concentration camps. It was a poor choice of words on her part.

Not great stuff all around.

Were you upset when the detention centers were run under the Obama Administration?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_detention_in_the_United_States

 
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TobiasFunke said:
So if I'm following this thread accurately, we currently have two discussions going on.

In one, conservatives are attempting to argue that a poll conducted by the "Stop the AOC" PAC shows AOC with unfavorable numbers in her district :mellow:
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So a political action committee called the Stop AOC PAC conducts a poll that says people don't like AOC?

Wow, what a surprise. You would never expect any bias in the methodology from such a politically neutral organization.

 
It’s more accurate to refer to them as refugee camps but i do have lots of serious questions about how these camps are being operated. They seem to often be run by the same few for profit private prison companies with suspicious histories. 

 
TobiasFunke said:
David Roth‏ @david_j_roth

/Children keep dying in the custody of an unaccountable government agency that has herded people deemed without rights into camps in the desert

"I would be very disturbed if someone were to compare what's happening here to anything."
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Were you outraged when people died in detention centers prior to Trump ?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_detention_in_the_United_States

https://www.newsweek.com/donald-trump-barack-obama-fort-sill-former-japanese-internment-camp-1443785

 
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