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JohnnyU

Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez Thread

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1 hour ago, JohnnyU said:

Not trolling at all.  She should welcome it to go on his show and share her views......unless she is afraid to.  It's easy for someone like her to stay in her comfort zone.  The really good politicians aren't afraid to mix it up with others that don't agree with them.

She really doesn't owe anyone anything except to the people in the district she is representing. 

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14 hours ago, Maurile Tremblay said:

I've heard both of them in lengthy podcast interviews before. I like Shapiro. He's wrong about most things, but he's intelligent, he cares about facts, and he argues in good faith. Ocasio-Cortez is obviously intelligent as well, and she might not be wrong as often as he is. I think she'd do fine.

What am I missing with Shapiro? I was kind of surprised to read that you like him, considering the tidbits I hear about him from time to time. All I really know of him is when he says something stupid or racist, or does some troll-job on a lib on various social media platforms that makes the rounds. Do I have the wrong impression of him? No tone or judgement, I’m genuinely curious. 

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3 minutes ago, Mile High said:

She really doesn't owe anyone anything except to the people in the district she is representing. 

Thank God her views aren't shared by most of America. 

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4 minutes ago, JohnnyU said:

Thank God her views aren't shared by most of America. 

I think some of her views are shared by most Americans.  Whether they get implemented or not is another story.

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5 minutes ago, The Football Freak said:

What am I missing with Shapiro? I was kind of surprised to read that you like him, considering the tidbits I hear about him from time to time. All I really know of him is when he says something stupid or racist, or does some troll-job on a lib on various social media platforms that makes the rounds. Do I have the wrong impression of him? No tone or judgement, I’m genuinely curious. 

He is unlike most partisan pundits in that he doesn't intentionally mischaracterize his opponents' views, and when someone points out to him that he's accidentally got his facts wrong, he apologizes and corrects himself and moves on instead of doubling down on the initial falsehood. Shapiro is an ideologue through and through, but he's a rare ideologue who seems capable of having a grown-up conversation because he cares about factual accuracy even more than he cares about scoring debate points (which he cares about a lot). He will concede points to the other side when the facts force him to. That clearly separates him from the Hannity-Carlson-Limbaugh-Coulter genre of commentator.

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13 minutes ago, Maurile Tremblay said:

He is unlike most partisan pundits in that he doesn't intentionally mischaracterize his opponents' views, and when someone points out to him that he's accidentally got his facts wrong, he apologizes and corrects himself and moves on instead of doubling down on the initial falsehood. Shapiro is an ideologue through and through, but he's a rare ideologue who seems capable of having a grown-up conversation because he cares about factual accuracy even more than he cares about scoring debate points (which he cares about a lot). He will concede points to the other side when the facts force him to. That clearly separates him from the Hannity-Carlson-Limbaugh-Coulter genre of commentator.

Any chance we can get him (or others like him) to this forum? 

Asking for friends. 

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Great twitter thread here about how this nonsense exposes conservative hypocrisy when it comes to disparaging elitism/academia and glorifying blue collar workers.  Imagine how different this discussion would sound if Ocasio-Cortez was the Harvard Law grad and Shapiro was the bartender.

The most likely explanation for this hypocrisy IMO is that they don't actually care about elitists (beyond resenting a lack of validation from them) or blue collar workers (beyond wanting their votes). They just care about owning libs and hiding their bigotry behind a veil.

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24 minutes ago, Maurile Tremblay said:

He is unlike most partisan pundits in that he doesn't intentionally mischaracterize his opponents' views, and when someone points out to him that he's accidentally got his facts wrong, he apologizes and corrects himself and moves on instead of doubling down on the initial falsehood. Shapiro is an ideologue through and through, but he's a rare ideologue who seems capable of having a grown-up conversation because he cares about factual accuracy even more than he cares about scoring debate points (which he cares about a lot). He will concede points to the other side when the facts force him to. That clearly separates him from the Hannity-Carlson-Limbaugh-Coulter genre of commentator.

Thank you. That’s definitely food for thought. I’ve avoided him before, but it seems I had the wrong impression of him. I like getting opposing viewpoints, but it is really hard to find those grown-ups who can do it without slinging poo or acting like they’re infallible. I’m going to check him out. 

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36 minutes ago, Maurile Tremblay said:

For example, I admire this about Shapiro: https://www.dailywire.com/news/33362/so-heres-giant-list-all-dumb-stuff-ive-ever-done-ben-shapiro

He will admit his errors more easily than most pundits will. (Consider Joy Reid as a point of comparison.)

I kind of admire this idea, but the execution is pathetically dishonest/disingenuous.  A few examples from the things he felt he didn't need to apologize for:
 

Quote

 

In 2011, I wrote a column about American Jews voting for Barack Obama, and stated:

Jews who vote for Obama are, by and large, Jews In Name Only (JINOs). They eat bagels and lox; they watch “Schindler’s List”; they visit temple on Yom Kippur — sometimes. But they do not care about Israel.

This happens to be true, by polling data and observation. Sorry.

 

The problem here isn't that he said that many Jews are Jews in name only.  It's that he said that Jews who voted for Obama are almost all JINOs and that he strongly implied that caring about Israel is what makes someone a "real Jew." Both of these attitudes are close-minded and arrogant, and the polling data he links to for support does not even mention either of them.
 

Quote

 

The Left also suggests I’m racist for this tweet:

Ben Shapiro‏ @benshapiro

If you wear your pants below your butt, don't bend the brim of your cap, and have an EBT card, 0% chance you will ever be a success in life.

That’s weird, since nothing in the tweet references race, since it’s not about race. Lots of people of all races dress in this fashion! If you’re inherently connecting EBT cards (more white people are on food stamps than any other race) and saggy pants to black people, perhaps that’s because you’re being a racist, you idiots.

 


This is a pretty standard tactic of right wing trolls.  Say something that most people reasonably perceive as being targeted at a minority, often by describing common behaviors or characteristics of that minority, and then pulling back and accusing the people who take issue with it of being "the real racists."  Notice he totally ducks the "cap brim" thing, because he can't explain it away in the same manner he does the other two things and all three of them together are what makes the racial angle so obvious. In the immortal words of the Supreme Court in Brown vs Board of Education: come on :rolleyes:
 

Quote

 

In response to people tweeting out that Trayvon Martin would have been alive but for a racist murder, I tweeted this a few years back:

Ben Shapiro‏ @benshapiro

Trayvon Martin would have turned 21 today if he hadn't taken a man's head and beaten it on the pavement before being shot.

This tweet has been trotted out as evidence that I am somehow racist. That’s weird, since I’ve repeatedly condemned killings that I believe are racially motivated. It’s also weird, since both the state and federal government could find no evidence that Martin’s killing was a racial murder, and a jury found based on testimony of witnesses and forensic physical evidence of Zimmerman's injuries that George Zimmerman shot Martin as Martin sat on top of him pounding his head into the pavement.

 

As far as I know the tweet isn't trotted out as evidence of his racism. The tweet is been trotted out as evidence that he's a heartless POS who decided to celebrate the birthday of a dead kid by mocking him and suggesting he was solely responsible for his own death. It's also a blatant effort to troll and divide people since it accomplishes literally nothing else, providing further evidence for the argument that he is indeed a POS.

 

Edited by TobiasFunke
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8 minutes ago, The Football Freak said:

Thank you. That’s definitely food for thought. I’ve avoided him before, but it seems I had the wrong impression of him. I like getting opposing viewpoints, but it is really hard to find those grown-ups who can do it without slinging poo or acting like they’re infallible. I’m going to check him out. 

Read through the link MT provided, it isn't as glorious as he makes it sound...

 

https://www.dailywire.com/news/33362/so-heres-giant-list-all-dumb-stuff-ive-ever-done-ben-shapiro

 

 

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5 minutes ago, TobiasFunke said:

I kind of admire this idea, but the execution is pathetically dishonest/disingenuous.  A few examples:
 

The problem here isn't that he said that many Jews are Jews in name only.  It's that he said that Jews who voted for Obama are almost all JINOs and that he strongly implied that caring about Israel is what makes someone a "real Jew." Both of these attitudes are close-minded and arrogant, and the polling data he links to for support does not even mention either of them.
 


This is a pretty standard tactic of right wing trolls.  Say something that most people reasonably perceive as being targeted at a minority, often by describing common behaviors or characteristics of that minority, and then pulling back and accusing the people who take issue with it of being "the real racists."  Notice he totally ducks the "cap brim" thing, because he can't explain it away in the same manner he does the other two things and all three of them together are what makes the racial angle so obvious. In the immortal words of the Supreme Court in Brown vs Board of Education: come on :rolleyes:
 

As far as I know the tweet isn't trotted out as evidence of his racism. The tweet is been trotted out as evidence that he's a heartless POS who decided to celebrate the birthday of a dead kid by mocking him and suggesting he was solely responsible for his own death.

 

I had many of these same thoughts. I don't agree with MT's take on the guy, but that's ok.

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56 minutes ago, The Football Freak said:

What am I missing with Shapiro? I was kind of surprised to read that you like him, considering the tidbits I hear about him from time to time. All I really know of him is when he says something stupid or racist, or does some troll-job on a lib on various social media platforms that makes the rounds. Do I have the wrong impression of him? No tone or judgement, I’m genuinely curious. 

It's the voice.  I agree with MT, while I disagree with is view points on many things, he is willing to be fair and isn't just a partisan echo chamber.

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If you could take the religious viewpoint out of Shapiro, he would be great.  He has a huge blindspot there where he loses his rational judgement.

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12 hours ago, Patrick Bateman said:

"Just like catcalling, I don’t owe a response to unsolicited requests from men with bad intentions. And also like catcalling, for some reason they feel entitled to one."--@Ocasio2018     She can handle herself just fine. 

Looks like Ben just got

Shapirowned.

 

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12 hours ago, Patrick Bateman said:

"Just like catcalling, I don’t owe a response to unsolicited requests from men with bad intentions. And also like catcalling, for some reason they feel entitled to one."--@Ocasio2018     She can handle herself just fine. 

Looks like Ben just got

Shapirowned.

 

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7 minutes ago, IC FBGCav said:

If you could take the religious viewpoint out of Shapiro, he would be great.  He has a huge blindspot there where he loses his rational judgement.

I agree with this 100%  It's the one thing about Shapiro I don't like at all.  Also, we disagree on abortion, but that can be expected given his religious views.

Edited by JohnnyU

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This is all so ridiculous. This is the House we are talking about. Have you seen some of the people in the House? Why is she getting picked on so much? We are just a couple months removed from members of Congress holding a Congressional hearing so they could figure out what Facebook is. 

 

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2 minutes ago, Ilov80s said:

This is all so ridiculous. This is the House we are talking about. Have you seen some of the people in the House? Why is she getting picked on so much? We are just a couple months removed from members of Congress holding a Congressional hearing so they could figure out what Facebook is. 

 

It's the socialist message that doesn't sit well with most Americans outside of her district. .   Couple that with her inexperience and some of the ill-advised remarks she's made, then you are going to be scrutinized.  Not to mention she is the perfect target for Republicans to go after. 

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4 minutes ago, Ilov80s said:

This is all so ridiculous. This is the House we are talking about. Have you seen some of the people in the House? Why is she getting picked on so much? We are just a couple months removed from members of Congress holding a Congressional hearing so they could figure out what Facebook is. 

 

1. Fear

2. Distraction

3. Bigotry

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19 minutes ago, IC FBGCav said:

If you could take the religious viewpoint out of Shapiro, he would be great.  He has a huge blindspot there where he loses his rational judgement.

I don’t know Shapiro at all, but as a general rule when someone is outwardly and loudly religious, that is the essence of the person. It’s a not a “viewpoint” you can examine separately; it’s his core. 

 

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Just now, JohnnyU said:

It's the socialist message that doesn't sit well with most Americans outside of her district. .   Couple that with her inexperience and some of the ill-advised remarks she's made, then you are going to be scrutinized.  Not to mention she is the perfect target for Republicans to go after. 

Seems like it would be a much better use of their time to engage the white supremacists in their own ranks who are running for (and in one case already in) congress as Republicans.  You know, clean up your own house before you worry about others. 

Unless you all think democratic socialism is worse than white supremacy?

 

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3 minutes ago, JohnnyU said:

It's the socialist message that doesn't sit well with most Americans outside of her district. .   Couple that with her inexperience and some of the ill-advised remarks she's made, then you are going to be scrutinized.  Not to mention she is the perfect target for Republicans to go after. 

Care to educate me?

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1 minute ago, TobiasFunke said:

 

Unless you all think democratic socialism is worse than white supremacy?

 

It is equally disgusting. 

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Just now, JohnnyU said:

It is equally disgusting. 

:lmao:

Yea, making sure everyone has access to healthcare is just as disgusting as white supremacy.  

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21 minutes ago, toshiba said:

Read through the link MT provided, it isn't as glorious as he makes it sound...

 

https://www.dailywire.com/news/33362/so-heres-giant-list-all-dumb-stuff-ive-ever-done-ben-shapiro

 

 

Hmm. After reading it, I see your point, too. The explanations and “apologies” for that tweet about Arabs bombing and living in sewage is terrible. I appreciate anyone who can openly admit when they’re wrong, but some of his explanations and apologies read as disingenuous, petty and arrogant. 

Honestly, I mostly avoid opinion and editorial articles like the plague. I prefer to read raw news, and digest it myself. I know that this means I will interpret what I’m reading incorrectly sometimes when it’s out of my wheelhouse, but it also encourages me to learn to understand what I’m reading. It also means I‘m largely unaware of guys like this. 

Sorry to sidetrack the thread, everyone, I was just curious. 

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3 minutes ago, JohnnyU said:

 

4 minutes ago, TobiasFunke said:

 

Unless you all think democratic socialism is worse than white supremacy?

 

It is equally disgusting. 

 

:mellow:

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This might have already been said before but I'm not going to scan through again to see, but has anyone mentioned that the offer he made was "I’m willing to offer $10,000 to your campaign" -- which would be a violation of campaign law if she accepted (way over the individual contribution limit)? As much as I dislike the man, there's no way Shapiro wouldn't know that when he made the offer. 

Of course, since then he's stated that it would "of course" be a donation to charity or something, but that isn't how he presented it. Feels like either an attempt to catch her in a "gotcha" or just further evidence of him extending the offer with the intention of her turning it down.

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4 minutes ago, TobiasFunke said:

Seems like it would be a much better use of their time to engage the white supremacists in their own ranks who are running for (and in one case already in) congress as Republicans.  You know, clean up your own house before you worry about others. 

Unless you all think democratic socialism is worse than white supremacy?

 

I remember seeing JohnnyU saying was pretty racist stuff a while ago. I know he's old, so maybe he's just a product of his time, but I don't find any excuse for it. There is absolutely no way he finds white supremacy bad at all, no matter what he responds with here.

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6 minutes ago, Dickies said:

Care to educate me?

For starters, her remarks that low unemployment is a result of everyone having two jobs.  That wasn't very smart on her part.  Then there was the cringe worthy remarks on Israel-Palestine.  Filled with false statements and confusion, then finally the remarks saying she isn't an expert on geopolitics.   If she wants to be in Congress she better be.

Edited by JohnnyU

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1 minute ago, Dedfin said:

I remember seeing JohnnyU saying was pretty racist stuff a while ago. I know he's old, so maybe he's just a product of his time, but I don't find any excuse for it. There is absolutely no way he finds white supremacy bad at all, no matter what he responds with here.

This is just plain wrong.  That's what the left does, they sling the racist card around when someone has an opposing viewpoint.  I challenge you to find one instance where I favor white supremacy.  I detest those groups.

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1 minute ago, JohnnyU said:

For starters, her remarks that low unemployment is a result of everyone having two jobs.  That wasn't very smart on her part.  Then there was the cringe worthy remarks on Israel-Palestine.  Filled with false statements and confusion, then finally the remarks saying she isn't an expert on geopolitics.   If she wants to be in Congress she better be.

I actually find this refreshing.  Not everyone in Congress is an expert on geopolitics, nor should they be.

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4 hours ago, Ramsay Hunt Experience said:

I challenge Ben Shapiro to a round of Jeopardy. If he beats me, I’ll stop calling him  “the stupid person’s idea of a smart conservative.”

I’m in.

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3 minutes ago, JohnnyU said:

, then finally the remarks saying she isn't an expert on geopolitics.   If she wants to be in Congress she better be.

Maybe she can take notes from Gary Johnson who made it all the way to governor and ran for President.

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1 minute ago, TobiasFunke said:

1. Fear

2. Distraction

3. Bigotry

Some of all of this but I think there’s another factor as well: a new boogeyman is needed. 

In 2016, the two giant villains of the left, Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama, were finally defeated. (Obama only by term limits). These two were the central focus of conservatives for the last ten years, Hillary for longer. At the same time, progressives suddenly got their own villain to oppose in Trump. 

A new villain on the left is needed to take the place of Hillary and Obama, and take some of the attention away from Trump. Nancy Pelosi was trotted out, but she’s old and not long for power one way or the other. Maxine Waters has been thrown out there, but she’s no threat to have any influence on the leadership of the Democratic Party and conservatives know that. She’s the lefts equivalent of Michelle Bachman. Not a “serviceable villain.” 

Bernie? Too nice a guy. Elizabeth Warren? Maybe. But not quite dislikable enough and the attempts to brand her with that stupid Native American thing only make her more sympathetic. So why not this young Hispanic woman, who comes off as a little shrill at times, with some socialist ideas? It’s a possiblity. They’re going to try it out. 

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6 minutes ago, Dickies said:

:lmao:

Yea, making sure everyone has access to healthcare is just as disgusting as white supremacy.  

No, but spending 14 trillion a year on healthcare isn't a good idea.

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2 minutes ago, JohnnyU said:

No, but spending 14 trillion a year on healthcare isn't a good idea.

Right now we spend 34 trillion on healthcare. More per person than any other nation, so I’ve heard. Is that a good idea? 

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1 minute ago, timschochet said:

Right now we spend 34 trillion on healthcare. More per person than any other nation, so I’ve heard. Is that a good idea? 

Or is it a 42 trillion dollar plan?

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11 minutes ago, JohnnyU said:

It is equally disgusting. 

Here's the first few paragraphs of the Wikipedia entry on Democratic Socialism:
 

Quote

 

Democratic socialism is a political philosophy that advocates political democracy alongside social ownership of the means of production[1] with an emphasis on self-management and democratic management of economic institutions within a market socialist, participatory or decentralized planned economy.[2] Democratic socialists hold that capitalism is inherently incompatible with what they hold to be the democratic values of liberty, equality and solidarity; and that these ideals can only be achieved through the realization of a socialist society. Democratic socialism can be supportive of either revolutionary or reformist politics as a means to establish socialism.[3]

The term "democratic socialism" is sometimes used synonymously with "socialism", but the adjective "democratic" is sometimes used to distinguish democratic socialists from Marxist–Leninist-inspired socialism which is viewed as being non-democratic in practice.[4][5] Democratic socialists oppose the Stalinist political system and Soviet economic model, rejecting the authoritarian form of governance and highly centralized command economy that took form in the Soviet Union in the early 20th century.[6]

Democratic socialism is further distinguished from social democracy on the basis that democratic socialists are committed to systemic transformation of the economy from capitalism to socialism, whereas social democracy is supportive of reforms to capitalism.[7] In contrast to social democrats, democratic socialists believe that reforms aimed at addressing social inequalities and state interventions aimed at suppressing the economic contradictions of capitalism will only see them emerge elsewhere in a different guise. As socialists, democratic socialists believe that the systemic issues of capitalism can only be solved by replacing the capitalist system with a socialist system—i.e. by replacing private ownership with social ownership of the means of production.


 

Here's the first few paragraphs for White Supremacy:
 

Quote

 

White supremacy or white supremacism is a racist ideology based upon the belief that white people are superior in many ways to people of other races, and that therefore, white people should be dominant over other races. White supremacy has roots in scientific racism, and it often relies on pseudoscientific arguments. Like most similar movements such as neo-Nazism, white supremacists typically oppose members of other races as well as Jews.

The term is also typically used to describe a political ideology that perpetuates and maintains the social, political, historical or institutional domination by white people (as evidenced by historical and contemporary sociopolitical structures such as the Atlantic slave trade, Jim Crow laws in the United States, and apartheid in South Africa).[1][2] Different forms of white supremacism put forth different conceptions of who is considered white, and different groups of white supremacists identify various racial and cultural groups as their primary enemy.[3]

In academic usage, particularly in usage which draws on critical race theory, the term "white supremacy" can also refer to a political or socioeconomic system where white people enjoy a structural advantage (privilege) over other ethnic groups, on both a collective and individual level.

 

You think these two are "equally disgusting"?

Really?

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1 minute ago, timschochet said:

A new villain on the left is needed to take the place of Hillary and Obama, and take some of the attention away from Trump.

So why not this young Hispanic woman, who comes off as a little shrill at times, with some socialist ideas? It’s a possiblity. They’re going to try it out. 

This appears to be the case.

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3 minutes ago, JohnnyU said:

No, but spending 14 trillion a year on healthcare isn't a good idea.

Where are you getting $14T per year?  Here is Paul Ryan with the real numbers:

tweet

 

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9 minutes ago, JohnnyU said:

This is just plain wrong.  That's what the left does, they sling the racist card around when someone has an opposing viewpoint.  I challenge you to find one instance where I favor white supremacy.  I detest those groups.

Just look in this thread at you calling a Puerto Rican a donkey mouth

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4 minutes ago, timschochet said:

Right now we spend 34 trillion on healthcare. More per person than any other nation, so I’ve heard. Is that a good idea? 

over 10 years

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Just now, higgins said:

It’s strange you feel that way when   a recent Koch brothers’ funded study showed the opposite.

https://www.thenation.com/article/thanks-koch-brothers-proof-single-payer-saves-money/

 

There are many opinions on socialism.  That doesn't mean the Koch brothers, or Bernie Sanders, or Ocasio-Cortez are right.  I don't think Americans want a socialist system.  Or at least I hope they don't.

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Well, 5 hours last night and several hours today on this topic.  I think I'll go do something else for awhile. 

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http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/401202-ocasio-cortez-fires-back-at-shapiro-i-dont-owe-a-response-to

Ocasio-Cortez dismisses Ben Shapiro's debate offer, compares to 'catcalling'

Democratic congressional candidate Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez on Thursday dismissed an offer from conservative commentator Ben Shapiro challenging her to a debate, saying she doesn’t “owe a response to unsolicited requests from men with bad intentions.”

“Just like catcalling, I don’t owe a response to unsolicited requests from men with bad intentions,” Ocasio-Cortez tweeted Thursday night. “And also like catcalling, for some reason they feel entitled to one.”

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1 minute ago, JohnnyU said:

There are many opinions on socialism.  That doesn't mean the Koch brothers, or Bernie Sanders, or Ocasio-Cortez are right.  I don't think Americans want a socialist system.  Or at least I hope they don't.

The Koch brothers do not want socialized healthcare, which is why instead of reporting that it would save $200B per year in healthcare costs they just reported how much it would cost because it's a scary figure.

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4 minutes ago, rude classless thugs said:

http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/401202-ocasio-cortez-fires-back-at-shapiro-i-dont-owe-a-response-to

Ocasio-Cortez dismisses Ben Shapiro's debate offer, compares to 'catcalling'

Democratic congressional candidate Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez on Thursday dismissed an offer from conservative commentator Ben Shapiro challenging her to a debate, saying she doesn’t “owe a response to unsolicited requests from men with bad intentions.”

“Just like catcalling, I don’t owe a response to unsolicited requests from men with bad intentions,” Ocasio-Cortez tweeted Thursday night. “And also like catcalling, for some reason they feel entitled to one.”

Good for her. If someone wants to debate her on issues, move to her district and then run against her.

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