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Joe Bryant

Christians and Faith and Politics - Thoughts?

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3 minutes ago, shader said:
6 minutes ago, toshiba said:

You wondered where I was going with my "Jesus wasn't a Christian" comment.  @proninja stated it perfectly!

I just didn’t understand why you were going down that path when I never argued that he was or wasn’t a Christian.  Proninja made a good argument, but I don’t know who you guys are arguing with?

We aren't arguing.  Why do you just jump to thinking people are arguing.  I was just saying something that led to this conversation.  

Why so hysterical and unhinged?

Edited by toshiba
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1 hour ago, proninja said:

Depends on how we define the term, but Jesus didn't really get into explaining how he thought government should be run. He did speak a lot about what was important to him though, and I don't think it's a big stretch to say he would have voted according to his values if he were in a country that voted in a time where democracy had taken hold. 

Since Jesus' context was so different than ours, I don't think I'd say that Jesus was a member of any modern political movement. I also definitely wouldn't say that he never would have joined a political party. Doing either is making some pretty big assumptions I personally wouldn't feel comfortable making. 

As far as if Christians should be socialists or not, I think it's a fair question. This book is a biography of Helmut Gollwitzer, a 20th century German theologian, and it summarizes Gollwitzer's position that a Christian should also be a socialist. I'm not far enough through it to give an accurate summary of the argument, as the first half is mostly biography, but I'm looking forward to finishing it. 

Thanks, I'll check out that book :thumbup:

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3 minutes ago, toshiba said:

We aren't arguing.  Why do you just jump to thinking people are arguing.  I was just saying something that led to this conversation.  

Why so hysterical and unhinged?

Hysterical and unhinged?  I’m seriously confused. Have a good evening.

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1 minute ago, shader said:
9 minutes ago, toshiba said:

We aren't arguing.  Why do you just jump to thinking people are arguing.  I was just saying something that led to this conversation.  

Why so hysterical and unhinged?

Hysterical and unhinged?  I’m seriously confused. Have a good evening.

Thank you, you too!

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Wow shader, are you alright? I really didn't mean to set you off.

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Just now, Dedfin said:

Wow shader, are you alright? I really didn't mean to set you off.

It’s like I’m in bizarro world. You have a good night too.  Some serious miscommunication here

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Okay, well I seriously didn't mean to anger you. :) Please accept my apology.

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3 minutes ago, Dedfin said:

Okay, well I seriously didn't mean to anger you. :) Please accept my apology.

And I have no idea what I’ve typed that would cause anyone to think I’m angry!  A bit confused but definitely not angry. :thumbup:

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ok cool :hifive: I won't bring this up again if you wont! haha

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22 hours ago, Joe Bryant said:

violating the second of the two great commandments of Jesus, to “love your neighbor.”

Christians (in general) just like this author tend to get this wrong.  There are not two great commandments, there is one.   As a result of getting this wrong too many Christians ignore the "love thy neighbor" part completely as they promote a selfish agenda meant to glorify themselves under the pretense of "loving God".  This leads to complete nonsense such as "hate the sin, love the sinner" justifications for that selfish, often hateful agenda.  This leads to nonsense like "I'm concerned about their soul's eternal judgment" when I focus on things like "sex is only for marriage and for nurturing family".  It leads to beliefs that "the mental anguish of poverty and debt, and the physical agony of hunger or cold, as natural spurs to ##### the conscience of sinners"*  It leads to beliefs that the rich are being rewarded for their righteousness. 

But as the atheist above points out, the way we treat each other is the way we love God.  The Gospels constantly contrast those that hold themselves out to be "holier than thou" with flawed everyday people actually taking care of their neighbors.  The New Testaments demands that "we give it up" to take care of one and another.  Taking care of each other, especially the "least of us" is the only commandment because it is the "how" we "love God with our whole heart", and not Jesus' afterthought.  

As for political parties I don't think there is any choice right now where a Christian should align.  It is one thing when the "compassionate conservatives" argued that using government wasn't the most effective way to take care of God's children.  Even argued that government involvement got in the way.  But it is quite another when a party actively promotes selfish, hateful ideas to promote one set of people - themselves at the expense of others.  Maybe once Christians and all decent people stick a fork in these deplorable ideas we can return to having honest debate on how to best take care of the "least among us", but that is not today!   

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19 hours ago, Yankee23Fan said:

A mega church might be a truly awesome worship experience that serves a large community and continues the faith, teaching biblical principals.  But when those same churches have $43 million in revenue and there are still homeless in the same county - that is the problem.  Not who the Senator or President is.

:greatposting:

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25 minutes ago, Bottomfeeder Sports said:

Christians (in general) just like this author tend to get this wrong.  There are not two great commandments, there is one.   As a result of getting this wrong too many Christians ignore the "love thy neighbor" part completely as they promote a selfish agenda meant to glorify themselves under the pretense of "loving God". 

 

Thanks. Can you elaborate more on this and why you think this? 

I ask as it's always seemed like "love your neighbor" was much "easier" to get your arms around. Loving God can feel kind of abstract. Loving your Neighbor way less so. 

On there only being one great commandment, can you talk more there? Are you talking about something different than Matthew 22?

Quote

 

Matthew 22:37-40 New Living Translation (NLT)

37 Jesus replied, “‘You must love the Lord your God with all your heart, all your soul, and all your mind.’[a] 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 A second is equally important: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 The entire law and all the demands of the prophets are based on these two commandments.”

 

 
 

 

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Yeah, I'm not sure I understand what BFS means by there only being one great commandment - do you mean that only one is actually practiced? 

FTR, I think there's a lot of Christians out there that do love their neighbor and do really good things - just like just about every segment of society.  Unfortunately, we hear about the ones who are nutjobs or fanatics because that is what sells.

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23 minutes ago, Joe Bryant said:

Thanks. Can you elaborate more on this and why you think this? 

I ask as it's always seemed like "love your neighbor" was much "easier" to get your arms around. Loving God can feel kind of abstract. Loving your Neighbor way less so. 

On there only being one great commandment, can you talk more there? Are you talking about something different than Matthew 22?

 

I don't remember who said this, but the way I heard it put best went something like this. 

God loves us through our neighbors. God doesn't need our good works for himself. There's nothing we can provide him. But our neighbor does. So we love God *by* loving our neighbors. Making the two greatest commandments one. 

Edited by proninja
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7 minutes ago, proninja said:

I don't remember who said this, but the way I heard it put best went something like this. 

God loves us through our neighbors. God doesn't need our good works for himself. There's nothing we can provide him. But our neighbor does. So we love God *by* loving our neighbors. Making the two greatest commandments one. 

Thanks. I've always just read it as two equal and obviously linked commandments. And this may be just parsing words. But when @Bottomfeeder Sports said Tim Keller was wrong, I thought he might be meaning something different. 

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55 minutes ago, Bottomfeeder Sports said:

Christians (in general) just like this author tend to get this wrong.  There are not two great commandments, there is one.   As a result of getting this wrong too many Christians ignore the "love thy neighbor" part completely as they promote a selfish agenda meant to glorify themselves under the pretense of "loving God".  This leads to complete nonsense such as "hate the sin, love the sinner" justifications for that selfish, often hateful agenda.  This leads to nonsense like "I'm concerned about their soul's eternal judgment" when I focus on things like "sex is only for marriage and for nurturing family".  It leads to beliefs that "the mental anguish of poverty and debt, and the physical agony of hunger or cold, as natural spurs to ##### the conscience of sinners"*  It leads to beliefs that the rich are being rewarded for their righteousness

I absolutely agree with this. Christians like to talk about the "plain reading" when it comes to issues they interpret one way, but jump through hermeneutial hoops to explain why it's more loving to not give a hungry person food or a homeless person shelter. 

Jesus fed the hungry. He healed the sick. He gave people concrete things they needed in the here and now. Christians should emulate him. 

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If I remember correctly BFS has the position that the first commandment is the greatest and most important because if you do that one, then the others fall in line as a result.  If our focus is "love thy neighbor" then we aren't "love God with all your heart"  You can't be completely dedicated to loving God as well as your neighbor.

I think it's something similar to this anyway....my memory is a bit shaky.  

Edited by The Commish

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18 minutes ago, proninja said:

Christians like to talk about the "plain reading" when it comes to issues they interpret one way, but jump through hermeneutial hoops to explain why it's more loving to not give a hungry person food or a homeless person shelter. 

Jesus fed the hungry. He healed the sick. He gave people concrete things they needed in the here and now. Christians should emulate him. 

2

:hifive:

 

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37 minutes ago, Joe Bryant said:

Thanks. Can you elaborate more on this and why you think this? 

I ask as it's always seemed like "love your neighbor" was much "easier" to get your arms around. Loving God can feel kind of abstract. Loving your Neighbor way less so. 

On there only being one great commandment, can you talk more there? Are you talking about something different than Matthew 22?

 

I am speaking of Matthew 22:34-40 (and Mark 12:28-34 and Luke 10:27).   I believe however that despite how Jesus is quoted that these are not greatest commandments 1 and 2, but commandments 1.A and 1.B.  They are the same commandment.  The only commandment.  And I believe that many other passages in the bible put these into context.   To start with reading the Luke 10:27 in full context of Luke 10:25-37  - which happens to be the "Parable of the Good Samaritan".  

Reading the Matthew 22:34-40 as two separate "greatest commandments" might also create contradictions for Romans 13:8-9, Matthew 7:12, Luke 6:31, and my favorite Galatians 5:14.  Of course if you accept that "For the entire law is fulfilled in keeping this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself" then it must follow that " Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength" is also fulfilled. Which is exactly what the separation of the sheeps and goats passage that @NCCommish mentions (Matthew 25:31-46) above is stating.

Finally, as for the Old Testament in the FFA you will find ..

On 3/7/2011 at 10:28 PM, timschochet said:

The greatest of the Pharisees was Hillel, a poor woodcutter who in about 40 B.C. traveled from Babylon to Judea to learn from the leading Jewish sages of the day. When he was asked by a pagan to summarize Judaism while standing on one leg, he said:

Do not do unto others as you would not have them do unto you. The rest is commentary. Now go and learn.

I think the above though, at least in your case is "preaching to the choir".  The part that you still are unsure about - I think is what do Christians get wrong.  My experience is that too many Christians in general read Matthew 22:37-38 as the greatest commandment and the Matthew 22:39 is an after though.  They jump on the vague, abstract portion because just about anything can be twisted into a fulfillment of this piece including advocating for some of the more hateful, selfish interpretations of passages as "loving God" by promoting "His will".  While much clearer, it is also much harder to treat everyone as you would want to be treated yourself.  So hard that we constantly fail.  Who wants that!

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35 minutes ago, The Commish said:

If I remember correctly BFS has the position that the first commandment is the greatest and most important because if you do that one, then the others fall in line as a result.  If our focus is "love thy neighbor" then we aren't "love God with all your heart"  You can't be completely dedicated to loving God as well as your neighbor.

I think it's something similar to this anyway....my memory is a bit shaky.  

Not quite.  Loving your neighbor is loving God.  The truly meaningful way to express love for God.  The meaningful way to express thanks and gratitude.

While it is possible to love you neighbor while not loving God, I don't see how it is possible to love God and not care about God's children.  All of them.  And to me "care" such that you treat others as you would want to be treated is the definition of "love" in this context.    

 

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6 minutes ago, Bottomfeeder Sports said:

I am speaking of Matthew 22:34-40 (and Mark 12:28-34 and Luke 10:27).   I believe however that despite how Jesus is quoted that these are not greatest commandments 1 and 2, but commandments 1.A and 1.B.  They are the same commandment.  The only commandment.  And I believe that many other passages in the bible put these into context.   To start with reading the Luke 10:27 in full context of Luke 10:25-37  - which happens to be the "Parable of the Good Samaritan".  

Reading the Matthew 22:34-40 as two separate "greatest commandments" might also create contradictions for Romans 13:8-9, Matthew 7:12, Luke 6:31, and my favorite Galatians 5:14.  Of course if you accept that "For the entire law is fulfilled in keeping this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself" then it must follow that " Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength" is also fulfilled. Which is exactly what the separation of the sheeps and goats passage that @NCCommish mentions (Matthew 25:31-46) above is stating.

Finally, as for the Old Testament in the FFA you will find ..

I think the above though, at least in your case is "preaching to the choir".  The part that you still are unsure about - I think is what do Christians get wrong.  My experience is that too many Christians in general read Matthew 22:37-38 as the greatest commandment and the Matthew 22:39 is an after though.  They jump on the vague, abstract portion because just about anything can be twisted into a fulfillment of this piece including advocating for some of the more hateful, selfish interpretations of passages as "loving God" by promoting "His will".  While much clearer, it is also much harder to treat everyone as you would want to be treated yourself.  So hard that we constantly fail.  Who wants that!

Thanks for sharing more. As I said, I've always read it the way Matthew had it with Jesus speaking of two commandments. But of course tightly interwoven. I agree it's likely preaching to the choir there and that's boring for everyone.

For how it applies, I find that way more interesting as I'm guessing you do too. And I'm always looking for more ways that we can live out the words. I've never thought of people using the Love God to avoid the Love Your Neighbor part. That's interesting and something to consider for sure. Thanks.

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1 minute ago, Joe Bryant said:

I've never thought of people using the Love God to avoid the Love Your Neighbor part.

But it is not just avoiding "Love Your Neighbor", "Loving God" has all too often been used as a justification to completely contradict it.

How often has the Bible been used as justification to treat "others" as second class citizens (or worst)?  Used to justify keeping "me" and "those like me" at the top of the power and/or economic hierarchy?

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12 hours ago, toshiba said:

We aren't arguing.  Why do you just jump to thinking people are arguing.  I was just saying something that led to this conversation.  

Why so hysterical and unhinged?

He said Dedfin was incorrect calling Jesus a socialist. (You jumped in the middle of that)  If you don't want to call it an argument you have to at least call it a disagreement which is a lot closer to being correct than anything being hysterical or unhinged. 

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14 minutes ago, Bottomfeeder Sports said:

But it is not just avoiding "Love Your Neighbor", "Loving God" has all too often been used as a justification to completely contradict it.

How often has the Bible been used as justification to treat "others" as second class citizens (or worst)?  Used to justify keeping "me" and "those like me" at the top of the power and/or economic hierarchy?

"I love you so much that I'm going to oppress you through the legal system, deny you basic rights, and tell you you're going to hell and God hates you unless you read a 2000 year old book exactly the same way I do" 

-not actually loving 

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19 minutes ago, Bottomfeeder Sports said:

But it is not just avoiding "Love Your Neighbor", "Loving God" has all too often been used as a justification to completely contradict it.

How often has the Bible been used as justification to treat "others" as second class citizens (or worst)?  Used to justify keeping "me" and "those like me" at the top of the power and/or economic hierarchy?

Interesting point about the bible.  I think this speaks to the fact that saying you "love God", doesn't mean that you do.  Jesus had the same scriptures as the pharisees.  The pharisees used the OT as a stick to demoralize the jewish people, even though they would all claim they loved God.  Jesus showed them that they really didn't.

So a Christian should love God, but if they are mistreating others and oppressing others, and NOT showing love to their neighbors, their claims of love are inaccurate, even if they have scriptures and beliefs that they are using to justify their actions.

 

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1 hour ago, proninja said:

I don't remember who said this, but the way I heard it put best went something like this. 

God loves us through our neighbors. God doesn't need our good works for himself. There's nothing we can provide him. But our neighbor does. So we love God *by* loving our neighbors. Making the two greatest commandments one. 

Just circling back and want to say that while I focused on the "we love God" part in my reply to Joe, I do appreciate the "how God loves us" piece that you are pointing out here.

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18 minutes ago, tonydead said:
14 hours ago, toshiba said:

We aren't arguing.  Why do you just jump to thinking people are arguing.  I was just saying something that led to this conversation.  

Why so hysterical and unhinged?

He said Dedfin was incorrect calling Jesus a socialist. (You jumped in the middle of that)  If you don't want to call it an argument you have to at least call it a disagreement which is a lot closer to being correct than anything being hysterical or unhinged. 

Ok I can accept that.  :thumbup:

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11 minutes ago, shader said:

So a Christian should love God, but if they are mistreating others and oppressing others, and NOT showing love to their neighbors, their claims of love are inaccurate, even if they have scriptures and beliefs that they are using to justify their actions.

Just want to say that the reason we are all sinners is because none of us really love our neighbors as ourselves all the time.  We all fail.  Hopefully more often than not by "what we have left undone" more so than "what we have done", but in any case I don't want to get to the point where coming up short means that one can't love God.   Just that we fail to fully and properly express that love.

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3 minutes ago, Bottomfeeder Sports said:

Just want to say that the reason we are all sinners is because none of us really love our neighbors as ourselves all the time.  We all fail.  Hopefully more often than not by "what we have left undone" more so than "what we have done", but in any case I don't want to get to the point where coming up short means that one can't love God.   Just that we fail to fully and properly express that love.

I'll agree and go one step farther. Every single one of us who lives in the richest country in the history of the world that has hungry people, homeless people, and our fellow citizens dying because they're too poor for health care is complicit in failing to love their neighbor. 

Unless of course they've sold everything they have to share with those in need, I suppose. 

Edited by proninja
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2 hours ago, Bottomfeeder Sports said:
2 hours ago, The Commish said:

If I remember correctly BFS has the position that the first commandment is the greatest and most important because if you do that one, then the others fall in line as a result.  If our focus is "love thy neighbor" then we aren't "love God with all your heart"  You can't be completely dedicated to loving God as well as your neighbor.

I think it's something similar to this anyway....my memory is a bit shaky.  

Not quite.  Loving your neighbor is loving God.  The truly meaningful way to express love for God.  The meaningful way to express thanks and gratitude.

While it is possible to love you neighbor while not loving God, I don't see how it is possible to love God and not care about God's children.  All of them.  And to me "care" such that you treat others as you would want to be treated is the definition of "love" in this context.    

I was close!!!!!!  

:thumbup: 

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5 hours ago, Bottomfeeder Sports said:

As for political parties I don't think there is any choice right now where a Christian should align.  It is one thing when the "compassionate conservatives" argued that using government wasn't the most effective way to take care of God's children.  Even argued that government involvement got in the way.  But it is quite another when a party actively promotes selfish, hateful ideas to promote one set of people - themselves at the expense of others.  Maybe once Christians and all decent people stick a fork in these deplorable ideas we can return to having honest debate on how to best take care of the "least among us", but that is not today! 

I've had this question on my mind the last few days, and found this thread is a good place to pose it:  is it immoral to vote for Republicans this November?

I was raised in a Catholic, Republican household, and I credit my upbringing (at least in part) with instilling in me a certain moral compass.  I'm struggling with how some of my family members who I thought had similar morals are still planning to vote Republican in the mid-terms.

To be clear, I firmly believe there is no longer a Republican party that doesn't fully endorse and enable Donald Trump.  Together, Trump and his GOP supporters have enabled/incited racism, separated children from their parents on a mass scale, sexually assaulted women and bragged about it, and now put an attempted rapist on the Supreme Court.

I could go on, and we can debate each one of these, but I think its pretty clear that the party of Trump has no moral compass.  They only care about themselves and their bank statements.  So, if you vote for them again this November, aren't you helping enable their immoral behavior?  Endorsing it?  Or, at least saying you don't care if they do these things?  Does that make casting that vote an immoral act in and of itself?

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23 hours ago, Dedfin said:

Jesus was a socialist

I could maybe see something like this.  I think he was closer to an anarchist than anything else.  An antiwar anarchist.  He wasn’t ambiguous about stealing or killing.  I’m a little biased though.  

One thing I definitely can’t see is Jesus being a centrist, or even deferential to political solutions.  He’d be on the extreme periphery in today’s political landscape, one way or the other.  

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3 minutes ago, CowboysFromHell said:

So, if you vote for them again this November, aren't you helping enable their immoral behavior?  Endorsing it?  Or, at least saying you don't care if they do these things?  Does that make casting that vote an immoral act in and of itself?

I believe the Christian Republican (or Republican Christian) retort would be: Is the reverse also true? If you vote for a democrat, aren't you helping enable their immoral behavior? Endorsing it? Or, at least saying you don't care if they do these things? Does that make casting that vote an immoral act in and of itself?

You may see one as worse than the other - and maybe one is truly worse than the other - but nobody is without sin. Politics can be a dark world and many times there are no good choices for people who want to cast a vote for God (if such a thing even exists). Assuming abstaining from voting is off the table, a decision has to be made. I wouldn't use that choice alone to make a judgment about what I think of the voter's morality or character. I know a Christian man who voted for Roy Moore. I don't get it, but I do believe he's a good man. I have a good sense of where is heart is in many parts of life so that weighs more than the single vote he cast to shape my view of my friend.

I have a much bigger problem with Christians who justify some things Trump does than I do for whether or not they vote for him. A vote can be so much more complicated than whether you refuse to clearly denounce actions like grabbing a woman by the #####.

 

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2 minutes ago, dgreen said:

I believe the Christian Republican (or Republican Christian) retort would be: Is the reverse also true? If you vote for a democrat, aren't you helping enable their immoral behavior? Endorsing it? Or, at least saying you don't care if they do these things? Does that make casting that vote an immoral act in and of itself?

You may see one as worse than the other - and maybe one is truly worse than the other - but nobody is without sin. Politics can be a dark world and many times there are no good choices for people who want to cast a vote for God (if such a thing even exists). Assuming abstaining from voting is off the table, a decision has to be made. I wouldn't use that choice alone to make a judgment about what I think of the voter's morality or character. I know a Christian man who voted for Roy Moore. I don't get it, but I do believe he's a good man. I have a good sense of where is heart is in many parts of life so that weighs more than the single vote he cast to shape my view of my friend.

I have a much bigger problem with Christians who justify some things Trump does than I do for whether or not they vote for him. A vote can be so much more complicated than whether you refuse to clearly denounce actions like grabbing a woman by the #####.

 

Yeah, I guess I don't get it.  What immoral behavior have you seen out of Democrats lately?  If we started a list, I'm pretty sure one would be a WHOLE LOT longer than the other.  In fact, here's a quick start to such a list:

Immoral acts by Democrats:

  1. I'm assuming most Christians would put legalized abortion here, and I'm guessing that could be what you were hinting at?

Immoral acts by Republicans:

  1. Sexual assault
  2. Racism
  3. Misogyny
  4. Child abuse (family separations)
  5. Mocking people with disabilities, victims of sexual assault, etc.
  6. Money laundering, lying to the FBI and certainly more to come from Mueller

I'll stop there, but you get my point.  It's not like you can hold your nose, and look past one infraction.  We're talking about a long list of horrible moral offenses.  I guess I don't see how anyone can justify the trade-off needed to go ahead and endorse someone like that.  I guess there are the one-issue abortion voters, but that's a separate discussion (why do Republicans care so much about an unborn child and yet turn their backs on them as soon as they pass through the birth canal?  And why do they refuse to support sex education and birth control if they fear unwanted pregnancies?)

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23 minutes ago, dgreen said:

I believe the Christian Republican (or Republican Christian) retort would be: Is the reverse also true? If you vote for a democrat, aren't you helping enable their immoral behavior? Endorsing it? Or, at least saying you don't care if they do these things? Does that make casting that vote an immoral act in and of itself?

You may see one as worse than the other - and maybe one is truly worse than the other - but nobody is without sin. Politics can be a dark world and many times there are no good choices for people who want to cast a vote for God (if such a thing even exists). Assuming abstaining from voting is off the table, a decision has to be made. I wouldn't use that choice alone to make a judgment about what I think of the voter's morality or character. I know a Christian man who voted for Roy Moore. I don't get it, but I do believe he's a good man. I have a good sense of where is heart is in many parts of life so that weighs more than the single vote he cast to shape my view of my friend.

I have a much bigger problem with Christians who justify some things Trump does than I do for whether or not they vote for him. A vote can be so much more complicated than whether you refuse to clearly denounce actions like grabbing a woman by the #####.

 

The way I look at it, if you cast a vote, you're supporting that person, both the good and the bad.  

Also, why would abstaining from voting be off the table?  That's a choice that approximately 195 million Americans made during the last presidential election.  It seems like a LOT of people choose not to vote.  (probably not the most popular sentiment in the Politics thread).

Back to topic of thread, Jesus.  He talked about God's Kingdom, which I don't take to mean the good ol USA (though many in the South seem to).  So I don't think he'd be joining a political party, voting or anything of the sort.  Just like in his day, his disciples thought he was going to overthrow Rome and become a King, and he clearly told them that wasn't his point.  

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Found these statistics interesting and relevant here:

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2016/02/23/u-s-religious-groups-and-their-political-leanings/

I was a bit surprised to see the diversity of political leanings among the religious.

This is the statistic that I had in my head:  GOP remains about 73% white Christian

So, being religious doesn't automatically mean you're a Republican, but being a Republican pretty much means you're religious, in fact Christian, in fact white Christian.

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16 minutes ago, CowboysFromHell said:

Found these statistics interesting and relevant here:

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2016/02/23/u-s-religious-groups-and-their-political-leanings/

I was a bit surprised to see the diversity of political leanings among the religious.

This is the statistic that I had in my head:  GOP remains about 73% white Christian

So, being religious doesn't automatically mean you're a Republican, but being a Republican pretty much means you're religious, in fact Christian, in fact white Christian.

I'll take this as a personal indictment and make a point of shouting it from the rooftops more often around here 

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20 minutes ago, proninja said:

I'll take this as a personal indictment and make a point of shouting it from the rooftops more often around here 

Yeah, I guess it's all about context. When people refer to religious people in American, they aren't talking about Hindu, or even dignified and reserved Christians like yourself.

They are talking about close minded, loud and politically motivated Evangelists. At least that's what I refer to.

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I'll just go ahead and add this as #7 on my list of immoral acts by Trumpublicans

This guy really does want to transform the greatest democracy in the world into an authoritarian dictatorship.  Do his supporters not see that, or do they, again, just not care because they are on the side with power, and they aren't the ones being threatened with being locked up or beaten up for their political beliefs?

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Well again I would use the metric Jesus himself set forth. Does the candidate you are preparing to vote for support housing the homeless or does he support laws that criminalize them? Does the candidate support reform to our needlessly brutal prison system or does he support making it even more draconian? Does he support healing the sick or does he support making it harder for people to get medical care perhaps to the point they die from lack of access? Does he support doing things to raise up th poor or does he compare them to animals while raising up the rich? Is your candidate corrupt in his service of money and power or isn't he? You can make it hard or if you are really trying to live a Christ like life it's pretty easy. You can't get perfect people but you can get people who are on point policy wise.

Christ never mentioned homosexuality, guns or abortion when he told you what you needed to be doing on Earth to enter heaven after his judgement. If you give earthly power to people not pursuing those things he did mention well then you may find yourself in the wrong line.

Edited by NCCommish

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