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matttyl

Trade etiquette - when is it ok to pull offer on table?

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Been going back and forth on a pretty big deal with another owner.  Most of back and forth has been around future rookie picks that we'd each include (it's a dynasty league).  I gave other owner a soft deadline of yesterday at noon as I had some family medical stuff to deal with (which he knew about), and also because he had a hurricane heading his way (ok, tropical storm at that point).  We've been at it for over a week, including and dropping players and picks.  I get home last night at 9 PM, hours after the soft deadline - see that one of the players I'd be including in 3 different offers on the table to him was A Jeffery who was having a great game.  I revoke all 3 offers which had been on the table for at least a day. 

He gets pissed.  This morning he made the first official offer to me in over a week (MFL format). 

Anyone right/wrong in this?

Edited by matttyl

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You can revoke an offer any time you want to... I don't understand what the issue is. 

 

I always revoke all offers before kick off. I don't want my player to blow up or the player I'm trading for to get injured and the guy is going to get cute and accept the trade. 

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Just now, Dr. Dan said:

You can revoke an offer any time you want to... I don't understand what the issue is. 

 

I always revoke all offers before kick off. I don't want my player to blow up or the player I'm trading for to get injured and the guy is going to get cute and accept the trade. 

My feelings exactly.  My player did "blow up", though I wasn't starting him.  In my mind, his value has changed because of last night's game - he's no longer considered a "throw in" (which he pretty much had been).  I asked if the player I was after would have been playing last night and got hurt, should that offer still have been valid?  Didn't get an answer.

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5 minutes ago, Dr. Dan said:

You can revoke an offer any time you want to... I don't understand what the issue is. 

 

/thread

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There is no "etiquette" when it comes to revoking an offer.  Many things change over time that could affect the particulars of a trade.  Also, just because you revoke an offer through the website doesn't necessarily mean it's dead. 

 

The only thing I can't stand with regards to revoking are owners that send an offer and revoke it within 5 minutes of sending it.  There are a couple owners in one of my leagues that do that all the time.  I don't know if they think it peaks interest in the offer because the other owner thinks there must be some reason the offer was revoked...now I want it more.  To me it is just silly.

 

In your particular instance its one game against a crappy defense.  I am not sure why it changes things all that much.  You were set to make the move and if Jeffrey was a peripheral piece of the deal it seems a good game against a crappy team that helps get the deal finalized is a good thing.  I am not sure why you were so eager to revoke the offer.  Did that game really change your overall value of Jeffrey so much that it's a deal breaker?  Maybe it was the nudge the other guy needed to actually make the deal. 

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Pull out of the deal at anytime, just don’t get a reputation as a time wasting negotiator. If it’s Sat and I need a WR3 I will go somewhere else.

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11 minutes ago, Gally said:

In your particular instance its one game against a crappy defense.  I am not sure why it changes things all that much.  You were set to make the move and if Jeffrey was a peripheral piece of the deal it seems a good game against a crappy team that helps get the deal finalized is a good thing.  I am not sure why you were so eager to revoke the offer.  Did that game really change your overall value of Jeffrey so much that it's a deal breaker?  Maybe it was the nudge the other guy needed to actually make the deal. 

All of this about Jeffery.

The dude's been in the league for a decade.  One game doesn't move the needle on his value.  We know who he is.

If your throw in blows up enough to push the deal across the finish line, you say "thank you very much, Alshon!", and click Accept.

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17 minutes ago, davearm said:

All of this about Jeffery.

The dude's been in the league for a decade.  One game doesn't move the needle on his value.  We know who he is.

If your throw in blows up enough to push the deal across the finish line, you say "thank you very much, Alshon!", and click Accept.

I agree here. Jeffery isn't going to be the player we saw last night every game. He may have these games occasionally. Ever since he was busted for PEDs his performance has dropped, predictably. 

 

I would be curious what the offer is and why Jeffery blowing up pushes it into being unfair. 

 

If I'm the owner working out a trade with the OP, and the offer is revoked, the only person I should be pissed at is myself for not hitting accept.

 

It's like going to the casino, wanting to put $20 on 14, roulette wheel spins,14 hits, and I'm mad at the casino for  me not betting. Makes no sense.  ETA: in Jeffery's case, 14 hitting once means the next 12 times it won't hit

Edited by Dr. Dan

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39 minutes ago, matttyl said:

My feelings exactly.  My player did "blow up", though I wasn't starting him.  In my mind, his value has changed because of last night's game - he's no longer considered a "throw in" (which he pretty much had been).  I asked if the player I was after would have been playing last night and got hurt, should that offer still have been valid?  Didn't get an answer.

He is still a throw-in.

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You have every right to pull the offer at any time.  Just be polite about notifying the other owner about it.  Simple.

 

He’s got no right to be offended or angry - unless you were a jerk when you pulled it (and I assume that you were not).  He could justifiably be a little annoyed if you pulled the offer that both parties put some effort into without any communication - but not anything to get bent out of shape about.

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Agree with the sentiments so far... revoke whenever you please. 

The only error you made was having a deal available that included a player whose game had started. MFL gives you day & time options. Always put an expiration on any trade offer that ensures you will never have a player on either side of the deal after their respective kickoff. There are d-bags out there that will snap accept after watching the guy they are giving away blow out a knee. 

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1 hour ago, Dr. Dan said:

You can revoke an offer any time you want to... I don't understand what the issue is. 

 

I always revoke all offers before kick off. I don't want my player to blow up or the player I'm trading for to get injured and the guy is going to get cute and accept the trade. 

:thumbup:

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Agree with others, at any time.

Today I was offered ADP + Cole (already have Dede) + DJJ (already have Hydr & Chubb) for Geronimo & Kerryon. Easy decline but I’m def interested in cultivating trading partners, so I sent him a note explaining why that wouldn’t work for me. I declined without a counter but I might propose one later today.

A short note goes a long ways versus just pulling an offer or declining. Always always always keep the dialogue going.

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Anything goes as far as trading, IMO.

Send/revoke, backing out of verbal/written agreements, etc. That's the way I look at it from the other side. It's not done until it's done.

I typically don't send & revoke unless there's a reason, but I've changed my mind on occasion when the deal is volatile. I've never backed out once I've told someone I'll do a specific deal, though. That said, I'm very careful how I word things. Unless I'm positive I'll do something, I'll say "probably" or something similar so I don't technically go back on my word if something changes.

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53 minutes ago, Flying Elvis said:

Agree with the sentiments so far... revoke whenever you please. 

The only error you made was having a deal available that included a player whose game had started. MFL gives you day & time options. Always put an expiration on any trade offer that ensures you will never have a player on either side of the deal after their respective kickoff. There are d-bags out there that will snap accept after watching the guy they are giving away blow out a knee. 

Did not know this and have never seen it.  Will have to look into it.

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3 minutes ago, matttyl said:

Did not know this and have never seen it.  Will have to look into it.

Bottom of the trade screen, just above the comment box. There are 4 drop down menus... it reads "Trade Expires:" then the drops for Month / Day / Time / Year. 

It's there in all my league but it's possible there's a commish setting to use / hide that feature, so ask if it's not there. 

 

Edited by Flying Elvis
spleling issuues
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57 minutes ago, Dr. Dan said:

I would be curious what the offer is and why Jeffery blowing up pushes it into being unfair. 

Wouldn't say it makes it unfair, and honestly I should have revoked before the game started regardless of how good/bad he was doing.  Should have revoked at noon like I had stated.

10 team non ppr.  I had offered two 2019 1st round picks (including that of the current last place team who would be giving up Brown in this deal, so very likely the #1 overall and a mid round first), Ronald Jones, Jeffery and a later 2019 4th rounder, and a 2020 3rd rounder .....for Antonio Brown and a 2019 2nd rounder. 

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Just now, Flying Elvis said:

Bottom of the trade screen, just above the comment box. There are 4 drop down menus: Month / Day / Time / Year. 

It's there in all my league but it's possible there's a commish setting to use / hide that feature, so ask if it's not there. 

 

I've honestly never noticed that.  Thank you!!

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2 minutes ago, matttyl said:

Wouldn't say it makes it unfair, and honestly I should have revoked before the game started regardless of how good/bad he was doing.  Should have revoked at noon like I had stated.

10 team non ppr.  I had offered two 2019 1st round picks (including that of the current last place team who would be giving up Brown in this deal, so very likely the #1 overall and a mid round first), Ronald Jones, Jeffery and a later 2019 4th rounder, and a 2020 3rd rounder .....for Antonio Brown and a 2019 2nd rounder. 

Wow. IMO Jeffery is still a throw in for that deal, but I'm thinking it's a little much to give up for Brown. Especially since there is another Brown you could take with that 1st rounder who has potential to be a star ;) 

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8 minutes ago, Dr. Dan said:

Wow. IMO Jeffery is still a throw in for that deal, but I'm thinking it's a little much to give up for Brown. Especially since there is another Brown you could take with that 1st rounder who has potential to be a star ;) 

Totally understand - but it's a "production now or production later" type thing.  Not sure the future Brown is going to do for me what this Brown can today.

What can Brown do you for?

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all fantasy websites should automatically revoke all standing if a player in the deal has a game that is 30 minutes before kickoff... couldnt be that hard to code that. and would save a lot of headaches of unintentional lingering offers causing issues on gameday

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16 minutes ago, matttyl said:

Totally understand - but it's a "production now or production later" type thing.  Not sure the future Brown is going to do for me what this Brown can today.

What can Brown do you for?

:lol: Nice one

 

I agree. Draft picks are always risky. Even Barkley had some risk. 

It depends what your mentality is I suppose. Antonio Brown is nearing the end of his trade value. This is likely one of the last years you can sell high. I don't blame anyone trying to sell him, or buy him; he can help you win consistently the next few years where AJ Brown might take 2-3 to pay off (meanwhile you've just won 3 years straight with Antonio Brown!) 

 

My mindset in both of my dynasty leagues is future right now. Complete rebuild. So that's why I have the opinion I do on AB. I can completely understand someone with the desire to trade for these guys that I would avoid today in my situation. However, having 5 first rounders next year I can definitely see myself selling those picks to make my team a contender in 2019, or even players and 2020 picks. Rookie mania is always something great to cash in on. 

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56 minutes ago, BobbyLayne said:

Agree with others, at any time.

Today I was offered ADP + Cole (already have Dede) + DJJ (already have Hydr & Chubb) for Geronimo & Kerryon. Easy decline but I’m def interested in cultivating trading partners, so I sent him a note explaining why that wouldn’t work for me. I declined without a counter but I might propose one later today.

A short note goes a long ways versus just pulling an offer or declining. Always always always keep the dialogue going.

Already got a response - he didn’t realize I already have Westbrook. Ask him if we could put together a package where I get Le’Veon, he’s down & gonna resend a new offer tonight after work.

Couple things:

1) When you’re negotiating, don’t give your number first - ever. Find a way to get them to divulge their offer first & counter from there. Same thing with trades: be the one receiving an offer, & you’ll be operating from a position of strength.

2) Look at their roster & analyze where they’re weak. In this instance he is weak at WR. I have a WR1 (AB), three WR2s (Hilton, Jeffrey & Tate) & three WR3s (Allison, Westbrook & Williams.) Will almost surely be multiple WRs for Le’Veon - upgrade his WRs while landing a late season difference maker is a win-win.

3) Always be friendly & respectful. Treat others well & they’re more likely to reciprocate.

Edited by BobbyLayne

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9 minutes ago, BobbyLayne said:

Already got a response - he didn’t realize I already have Westbrook. Ask him if we could put together a package where I get Le’Veon, he’s down & gonna resend a new offer tonight after work.

Couple things:

1) When you’re negotiating, don’t give your number first - ever. Find a way to get them to divulge their offer first & counter from there. Same thing with trades: be the one receiving an offer, & you’ll be operating from a position of strength.

2) Look at their roster & analyze where they’re weak. In this instance he is weak at WR. I have a WR1 (AB), three WR2s (Hilton, Jeffrey & Tate) & three WR3s (Allison, Westbrook & Williams.) Will almost surely be multiple WRs for Le’Veon - upgrade his WRs while landing a late season difference maker is a win-win.

3) Always be friendly & respectful. Treat others well & they’re more likely to reciprocate.

With regards to #1- I find the trades I like the best are the ones that I am receiving the offer first and we go from there. The trades where I have to seek out and initiate conversation are the ones that either don't go anywhere or I don't like and don't accept. The problem with a few people in one of my leagues is when I say "hey is Player X available, okay what's your value?" and then I get "shoot me an offer". Well... no, I don't want to waste my time, what's your value? In those cases I end up giving a low ball offer just to get a more realistic counter from him so I can be in a position of more strength than where I started from. Which leads me to #3...

In one of my leagues if you offer a guy a low ball offer, he won't counter and instead will post on a group message ap how you're trying to rob him. Needless to say, I'm done trading with him unless he comes to me first, and it's a deal that I love. So I agree, be friendly and respectful and you're likely to get a deal done. Everyone else in that league we've had no problems discussing trades and maybe working deals out, being respectful to each other. 

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23 minutes ago, BobbyLayne said:

Already got a response - he didn’t realize I already have Westbrook. Ask him if we could put together a package where I get Le’Veon, he’s down & gonna resend a new offer tonight after work.

Couple things:

1) When you’re negotiating, don’t give your number first - ever. Find a way to get them to divulge their offer first & counter from there. Same thing with trades: be the one receiving an offer, & you’ll be operating from a position of strength.

2) Look at their roster & analyze where they’re weak. In this instance he is weak at WR. I have a WR1 (AB), three WR2s (Hilton, Jeffrey & Tate) & three WR3s (Allison, Westbrook & Williams.) Will almost surely be multiple WRs for Le’Veon - upgrade his WRs while landing a late season difference maker is a win-win.

3) Always be friendly & respectful. Treat others well & they’re more likely to reciprocate.

#1 is great in theory, but in a FF context, not very practical in reality IME.  Open ended emails like "hey are you looking for some help at RB" never seem to go anywhere.  I need to actually offer him a RB from my roster, and reveal the guy(s) from his roster I'd want back for there to be any traction.

Besides which, even if I say "hey interested in a RB", I think the other guy is immediately in a position of strength even if I haven't made a formal offer, just by me initiating.

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1 hour ago, iamkoza said:

all fantasy websites should automatically revoke all standing if a player in the deal has a game that is 30 minutes before kickoff... couldnt be that hard to code that. and would save a lot of headaches of unintentional lingering offers causing issues on gameday

I would disagree with this.  In dynasty leagues the game times and what is currently happening isn't necessarily a deal breaker unless there is a totally catastrophic injury and in that case everybody I am in leagues with wouldn't enforce a trade under those circumstances if the other party decided to try and sneak one by. 

 

MFL allows you to set an expiration.  That should be plenty fine to allow you the flexibility to have an offer revoked before game time if you so desire.

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MFL also has this as an available setting (Commish setup)

Quote

Prevent owners from accepting trades between kickoff of the player's game and the end of the last game of the week?Yes No 

 

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5 hours ago, Dr. Dan said:

You can revoke an offer any time you want to... I don't understand what the issue is. 

/topic. 

 

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I also agree it is fine to pull an offer at any time, as long as it has not been accepted.  Once accepted, a deal is a deal, but until accepted, it's just a proposal, which can be accepted, countered, declined, or simply ignored.  You have no idea what his thought process is, etc.  I also would never let an offer continue past kickoff of one of the players involved in the trade.

I do think it is proper etiquette to reject an offer quickly if you have no intention of accepting it.  Simply ignoring it is a bit rude.  I get sometimes people may not realize the offer has been made until after it expires, not everybody is obsessed with FF the way some of us are.  And if you're really thinking, thinking, thinking - that's fine - just let me know you are considering it, and preferably why you might lean toward accepting or rejecting.

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