Fantasy Football - Footballguys Forums
Welcome to Our Forums. Once you've registered and logged in, you're primed to talk football, among other topics, with the sharpest and most experienced fantasy players on the internet.
Criminal Justice and Sexual Assault (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Henry Ford
- Start date
Henry Ford
Footballguy
Last edited by a moderator:
Henry Ford
Footballguy
-Jackson Katz
Henry Ford
Footballguy
Alrighty. I think that's all of them in the U.S. that made headlines in 2018 and contained the words "rape" "sentence" and "probation" so far according to a basic google web page search. I'll check again with a "news" search later this week. Then after those we can start documenting the new ones or, if anyone would like, I can go back to 2017.
Obviously, the sentences that make headlines are only a small fraction of the ridiculous non-sentences that happen, and those are just of the ones that get prosecuted.
Obviously, the sentences that make headlines are only a small fraction of the ridiculous non-sentences that happen, and those are just of the ones that get prosecuted.
wikkidpissah
Footballguy
so, is this an awakening - noble on its own - or is there something further you would like us to understand or do?
Zow
Footballguy
Henry, I respect the hell out of you, but I can't help but comment that I strongly encourage people to not take media reports on sensitive, high-profile cases as accurate reflections of what took place both factually and procedurally. As a guy who is frequently defending people charged with these types of crimes - and, in doing, getting to see the evidence and being knowledgeable of the process, sentencing guidelines, plea negotiations, etc. - the media commonly inaccurately reports both the facts, the procedural aspects of the case, and the case outcome. To be clear, I'm not suggesting these errors are intentional or malicious. These types of criminal cases are very complicated and reporters don't have law degrees or are learned on criminal procedure. But, that said, I can firsthand say that media reports from cases such as these are oftentimes inaccurate. A plea deal to an agg assault could be mischaracterized as a sexual assault/rape. A victim may (understandably) make a statement alleging a specific fact but that fact isn't a part of the factual basis for what the defendant actually pled to and the reporter didn't understand that. Plus, there could be issues with a case that are never made public. There may be evidence or proof issues. There may be real defenses. Oftentimes, the state may overcharge the case. As such, I find it errant to suggest that all your linked articles are the gross miscarriages of justice that you and the media articles purport them to be.
Last edited by a moderator:
Zow
Footballguy
Henry Ford
Footballguy
Zow
Footballguy
I strongly encourage you to not base this conclusion off a bunch of media articles. Most states have sentencing parameters that bind a judge's hands either through a conviction at trial or by way of the plea agreements. Most of the time a sensitive, high-profile sex case is handled by a prosecutor with many years of experience and training in this particular area of criminal defense and they are not pled quickly and leniently. Oftentimes a defendant may undergo a psychosexual analysis. Oftentimes, even if the period of incarceration isn't terribly lengthy, the conviction will carry harsh collateral consequences and lengthy probationary periods with strict sex terms that will significantly reduce a convicted defendant's freedoms and options.
Henry Ford
Footballguy
Zow
Footballguy
I was more so referencing the disrespect you're showing for our colleagues and the judiciary.
You don't need to be sorry for anything. I don't "feel" a particular way about anything I posted or that I said.
Henry Ford
Footballguy
Zow
Footballguy
Certainly you understand the negative reaction of somebody who sees another poster make sweeping generalizations about a complicated, nuanced area of that somebody's field of expertise by merely posting non-scholarly articles and news clips in support, right?
And, no, I don't want to debate you. While that may be entertaining over a glass of good bourbon during non-work time, I'm sure our time is presently better spent elsewhere.
bueno
In a class by himself
I have to ask: how selective are you being? I think it is a travesty that these sentences are so light, but are they anomalies, or par for the course?
Henry Ford
Footballguy
Of the articles that came up in that search dealing with sentences this year, I believe I left four or five out because they were something to the effect of "Man gets 244 years for raping a dozen children" or the like. But the actual decision to search by "sentence probation" is extremely selective. There are no doubt hundreds of rapists who get sentences I would consider much more appropriate every year.
Last edited by a moderator:
Zow
Footballguy
That certainly was not made clear by your comment, "ridiculous non-sentences" in the context of prosecuted cases.
Do I agree with you that society needs to change its attitude towards sexual violence and misconduct towards women? Absolutely. The recent Kavanaugh debacle demonstrates that perfectly. But, do random media articles show that somehow the prosecuted cases are grossly mishandled and that legislators have made the laws too lenient? No.
Yankee23Fan
Fair Tax!
Before two of the better posters go to war with each other over this - I practice on both sides of Domestic Violence issues. It is both complicated and simple. And that is the ultimately problem. @Zow is right that there are always certainly things that reporters have no idea about, other issues that aren't put on the record and more nuance than a simple newspaper article. But @Henry Ford is also right that we don't enough within the confines of the justice system to protect women from men. There a myriad of reasons for it.
In my jurisdiction, more often than not a restraining order is dropped because of one main reason - money. Far too often the imposition of the restraining order is going to have the guy lose his job. Once he loses his job he can't pay the bills, child support or alimony. So she has to drop it in order to protect her economic future more. It sucks. It's disgusting. I've been on both sides of it. And there isn't a much better way except for a long term effort by men in this country to teach their sons, women to stand up for the rights and keep pushing, and everyone coming to grips wit the fact that this is a problem that needs to be fixed.
Henry Ford
Footballguy
Zow
Footballguy
I wasn't referring to the subject. I was referring to two people engaged in a civil, learned discussion over a drink.
Henry Ford
Footballguy
Henry Ford
Footballguy
Zow
Footballguy
I want to. I just would prefer to do so over a glass of bourbon when I'm not worried about the work that I need to complete before going home today that I'm not currently attending to.
Last edited by a moderator:
bueno
In a class by himself
I'm not disagreeing with Henry Ford. I just would like to believe that in most cases, justice prevails. There will always be issues with the system. I agree that we have to teach sons to respect women, but that doesn't mean that they have to wait for women to make the first move. We also have to teach our daughters to report incidents right away - not 36 years later. It is too damaging to the psyche to deal with rape or attempted rape, or even a groping for long periods of time.
In short, we have been going through a period of change in sexual relations, particularly at the teenage level. It is confusing and frustrating for both sexes.
Last edited by a moderator:
I know I would like to see a discussion here between @Henry Ford and @Zow on this. We "know" and trust them and they clearly have lots of experience in this important area.
Last edited by a moderator:
jonessed
Footballguy
Apparently they arent releasing the nature of the sexual contact, but it appears they were in a relationship. If the contact was consensual I see 10 years of probation, loss of teaching license, and registering as a sex offender as a heavy punishment.
Henry Ford
Footballguy
Henry Ford
Footballguy
AAABatteries
Footballguy
Henry - I read through most of your posts but don't have time to read all the links. Just to make sure I'm following - is your issue more with those bringing the charges, the jurors, the judges, our overall attitude towards women who are violated or a combination of all of them?
As a complete legal moron my assumption when I read that a plea agreement was reached is that either the case wasn't strong or the lawyer wasn't convinced he could win. Is that typically true?
On the probation sentence - isn't that something that either gets worked out with the lawyers or the judge and not the jurors?
Sorry for asking probably stupid questions but I'm trying to understand where you feel the biggest part of the problem lies today.
As a complete legal moron my assumption when I read that a plea agreement was reached is that either the case wasn't strong or the lawyer wasn't convinced he could win. Is that typically true?
On the probation sentence - isn't that something that either gets worked out with the lawyers or the judge and not the jurors?
Sorry for asking probably stupid questions but I'm trying to understand where you feel the biggest part of the problem lies today.
Henry Ford
Footballguy
If you use the legal definition of sexual assault, 100% of the women I know - and probably 100% of the women you and everyone else in this country knows - have been sexually assaulted. Let's start there.
Gawain
Footballguy
Oh no, this is part of the problem.
How many of those sentences of probation are from trial and how many are from a plea deal agreed to by the defense and the prosecution? A plea deal which is all but rubber stamped by a judge?
Ours is a system where an assured conviction for some offense is more important than a likely conviction for the actual offense. A system where our prison populations are so over crowded from non violent crime convictions that violent offenders that caused physical harm are released early. DAs want to hang their hats on conviction rates. Judges need to clear their dockets. Plea bargains occur. I think the only conviction that led to probation was the Doctor in Texas. The rest of the results were agreed upon by all parties, with the notable exception of the victims. Giving victims line-item input into plea negotiations doesn't seem to be a road anyone wants to go down.
The nature of our adversarial system generates results such as the ones shown by HF. An inquisitive system would have much different outcomes.
jonessed
Footballguy
Henry Ford
Footballguy
My issue is that we claim we care about these things, we write laws that ostensibly make them illegal, and then we as a society have determined that they're not really worthy of the punishment we claim they are. We just don't actually care.
As has been suggested on this page "sure, statutory rape is rape, but it isn't rape rape." Well, then let's stop calling it rape. Let's stop paying it lip service. If the punishment for sexual assault is 2 years and statutory rape is sexual assault, then the punishment is what it is. We point to these penalties as evidence that we care, but we don't actually want them enforced.
Henry Ford
Footballguy
Zow
Footballguy
I didn't say relaxed.
We are lawyers. We are trained to objectively examine, analyze, discuss, and debate very sensitive legal issues. Certainly, sexual assault and the ways that the laws are written and applied fall into that parameter. And, a by-product of that training is some desensitization to the emotional charges of those issues (otherwise, we'd probably all find ourselves at the bottom of a bottle or a lake). So, yes, it is possible to have a serious, civil discussion about a difficult legal topic over a drink.
Yankee23Fan
Fair Tax!
I guess it depends on your definition of justice to sound like an arsehat lawyer. I'm not so sure in this arena that "justice" always prevails though. In my domestic violence experience, ugly practicality gets in the way of justice far too often.
Henry Ford
Footballguy
jonessed
Footballguy
Depends on the circumstances. In this case, I think the punishment was pretty heavy. Did I not make that clear?
Zow
Footballguy
Henry, as I said in my very first post, I respect the hell out of you. So, with that in mind, and with the obvious deterioration of this discussion, we both appear to be at a point where much more on this will be counter-productive.
Henry Ford
Footballguy
It wasn't clear to me that you consider it rape. Primarily because you called it consensual.
Henry Ford
Footballguy
Henry Ford
Footballguy
I tried to post the basic circumstances for a number of the articles - the answers to these is varied. Sometimes it's a conviction, sometimes the jury sets the sentence, sometimes the judge, sometimes it's a plea deal, etc.
jonessed
Footballguy
Henry Ford
Footballguy
bueno
In a class by himself
Well, a lot of people here are sounding like lawyers, and that doesn't bother me so much, at least in this discussion so far. Ugly practicality seems to get in the way a lot - we need more judges at multiple levels (and let's not get into the political tactics in D.C. - those aren't the judges we are talking about here). So the question still remains as to whether justice is served in most cases, only a few cases or not at all?
Yankee23Fan
Fair Tax!
I think a great discussion is how to change the legal system to combat what is a truly significant problem of men physically assaulting women either simply hitting them or sexually assaulting them. No one law can change it nor guilty verdict - I think. There needs to be a societal movement from the ground up and the family up to get there. Again, I think.
Henry Ford
Footballguy
In the cases that actually go to trial, I would say there's a legitimate argument that more cases result in some measure of justice than do not. When you include all the cases that don't ever make it to trial for all kinds of reasons, I would say very few rape or sexual assault cases result in anything I'd consider "justice."
Snorkelson
Footballguy
I’m not a lawyer, but sentencing guidelines usually have some sort of, you know, sentence attached. A lot of these are plea bargains, where a “rape” gets pled down to “aggravated assault,” “filming an unclothed person,” or some other slap on the wrist, and avoid crimes with guidelines, like registering as a sex offender. I know these are all hand picked articles by HF but there is also a lot to choose from. What’s an acceptable rate of pleasing down? 1/2500? I wouldn’t jump out of a plane if 1/2500 jumpers die at the place.
I know some of these prosecutors probably accept a deal to keep it out of court as part of protection of the victim, not having to relive it, and some are giving a second chance, as the people involved up to that point had been decent young citizens that made a bad youthful decision, rather than being a serial rapist. Sometimes there may be a question as to whether they could get a conviction, but the perp also doesn’t want to risk a trial, and admits to some lesser wrongdoing to avoid the chance of prison. Not all cases are the same or cut and dry.
Similar threads
