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On the surface, most of the cases Henry posted it certainly doesn't feel like it.
Absolutely. Which is why it absolutely galls me when the victim is on board, lives for years with the case delaying moving on from it at all, works with the prosecutor, and then a deal gets struck at the eleventh hour to give the perpetrator probation. Or when there's a conviction and the perpetrator gets probation.
This type of "how it really works behind the scenes" for lawyers and plea bargains and such is information I'd like to hear more on from people that have experience with this.
I agree. There has to be a complete cultural shift in how we think about sexual violence. That's the whole point.
The issue I'm trying to address here is why we allow this. We scream that women need to come forward, need to do the right things, and even when they do they feel betrayed by the process - which is really, honestly, a betrayal by society in general.
And I think us (meaning the lawyers here) get in the way of the discussion when we bog it down in practicing law. For the purposes of the having the discussion here, not in the case, for example, of actually trying to write law with a legislature.
This is where I'm not sure I agree.
I think there are a lot of avenues to take on this. One that is not working is "We define this as rape" but then in the sentencing phase deciding "but not that kind of rape so you shouldn't get the full punishment we think of as for rape."
Why do you believe people care?
I'm going to be the pinball in this discussion - I don't agree with you at all Joe. Society hasn't changed at all. Maybe the news stories have. But not society. I was in DV court this week and there were 50 fresh cases. There will be more next week. And the week after that. Harvey Weinstein getting dragged to hell isn't stopping the casting couch right now. And the metoo movement hasn't put a dent in the ultimate problem.
I think you can read this thread and see people care. I can't imagine we're that weird here and others don't care as well.
I can see that. So perhaps, for discussion sake, start from this - should we not allow any mitigating factors when it comes to a rape conviction?
I shouldn't have just said, "dude." While that was my second post (I made a lengthy, respectful post above it that opened the discussion") and I was genuinely taken aback by what I interpreted to be an insult towards the law and the professionals involved with it, you deserved something better than just, "dude."
I represented a girl who was beaten by her boyfriend. Her family was active in their church. Among the many things I talked to them about was talking to their pastor and joining a certain group.
I don't see how that'd ever be constitutional as it would violate the 6th and 8th Amendments.
I'm not going to tell you your business as obviously you work in the area and see more than I do.
I don't know. I think people care and want to see what it takes to have cases like you mentioned not happen.
If I may use an overused metaphor:
Yes. In fact, I saw someone call a 30 year old wrestling coach raping an underage girl a consensual encounter in this thread.
Yes. I understand that and while it's still a very serious obstacle, I think it's something that is changing for the better. Again, I don't have any evidence to back this up. It just feels like stuff that was wink wink, American Pie or Porkys stuff years ago is now rightly seen as wrong.
A person convicted of sexual assault, a Class 2 Felony, is sentenced pursuant to a wholly different set of sentencing ranges pursuant to statute than a "normal" felony in the same class. These are much harsher.
The guy was punished. 10 years probation, loss of teachers license, and being listed as a sexual predator is not a “slap on the wrist”.
Thanks. Saw your first post later (and it's been edited so I don't know what it said at first) because you didn't tag me in it. The "dude" was the first I saw. As to your belief that I meant something against our colleagues, these are the first two sentences of the thread:
This is about society. And why women don't come forward, because they perceive that there's not all that much in it for them most of the time.
I think people care now. I think this thread is evidence of that.
You said it was consensual. Rape is definitionally sexual assault, usually involving penetration, without consent. Which is entirely my point about societal attitudes.
They appear to have been in a relationship so it would have been statutory rape. We aren’t in a courtroom here. By consensual I meant non-forcible. They agreed to it. She gave permission. Her “consent”.
All good. So there's no misunderstanding:
I'm glad to hear that.
I have to tell you, the complete failure to understand what's going on in this conversation is really mind-blowing. And just maddening.
You’re probably right. I’ll leave the courtroom battles to the lawyers. I thought the discussion would be more about societal perceptions and changes.
What are the "great many things?" Rape involves sexual penetration carried out against a person without that person's consent. After that, I think terms get a little fuzzy, like what is sexual assault and what is groping or fondling. I'm sure there are legal definitions, but I don't think people are all on the same page when it comes to sexual assault.
States have different ages of consent. NY is 17 and Penn is 16. Because a person goes from Penn to NY, they are somehow incapable of giving consent?
This isn’t about winning, it’s about the fact that when a ten year old tells her uncle it’s okay to play “the game” or when a fifteen year old tells a 30 year old teacher it’s okay to have sex, neither one of those is consent.
“Statutory Rape” is not treated like rape involving force sufficient to overcome the will of the victim.
I don’t know. I’m inclined to think that the first step is people agreeing on the base issues. Doesn’t seem to be the case here.
Sorry, did people’s birthdays or how long a year is change in your example? Within four years means within four years.
