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timschochet

The migrant caravan

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2 hours ago, butcher boy said:

Years of amnesty has given the USA the image that anyone can come here and succeed or take advantage like its that easy.  

When did that happen?

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I love how the argument is “we have our own poor to take care of.”

When we talk about taking care of our own poor people it’s “who’s going to pay for that.” This administration and a lot of its supporters don’t care about less fortunate people, it doesn’t matter where they live. 

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So far down the list of important issues to this country. Perfect political wedge for scumbag politicians. Trump will without a doubt talk about this nonstop. 

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I’m not surprised by some of the posts in here (build the wall, go back home!! Send them back!!) etc. But they depress me anyhow. I know that these attitudes are why Trump was elected. But it bothers me that otherwise decent people can feel this way. To be so threatened by desperate refugees- the fear and ignorance here is startling. 

Other than a predictable amount of racism, I doubt Donald Trump truly cares about this issue at all. But he knows what gets his base going. 

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9 minutes ago, knowledge dropper said:

How does a migrant caravan start?  Honest question.   

Migrant advocacy groups usually put them together to get attention, but I have not heard of any group claiming to have put this one together.

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We take tired, poor, huddled masses. This is America. Turning away 4,000 political refugees shouldn’t be our top approach to the problem.

My guess is the guys crying “who’s going to pay for it” don’t pay much anyway. How far do you think your 20 grand goes, if you even pay that? 

None of you guys had immigrants in your family tree either, I’m sure. 

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17 hours ago, lod001 said:

Lets start with, who is paying for this?

I'm convinced Trump is paying for this.  I'm also convinced he's paying for the skeezer lawyer and 2020 Democrat front runner Michael  Avenatti.  Nobody can be this lucky, can they?

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Just now, knowledge dropper said:

Religious or Political affiliated groups?

I don’t believe they are religious groups.

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One thing to consider is how many border apprehensions there have been over the years.  Although this caravan is large, the numbers of people trying to come into our country every day with similar stories is also large.  The question I ask is why should the people in the caravan be treated specially?  

Immigration is necessary for our country's future prosperity.  In many cases, letting people in also can be the ethically and morally right thing to do.  But it needs to be systematic and orderly.  

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3 hours ago, timschochet said:

I’m not surprised by some of the posts in here (build the wall, go back home!! Send them back!!) etc. But they depress me anyhow. I know that these attitudes are why Trump was elected. But it bothers me that otherwise decent people can feel this way. To be so threatened by desperate refugees- the fear and ignorance here is startling. 

Other than a predictable amount of racism, I doubt Donald Trump truly cares about this issue at all. But he knows what gets his base going. 

We don't want people walking over our border and declaring,

"Oh, we're Americans now."

Like it's their decision to make.

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3 hours ago, knowledge dropper said:

How does a migrant caravan start?  Honest question.   

From what I've read over the last couple of years, you have countries like Honduras and El Salvador that went through years of civil war, leaving a significant amount of impoverished women and children, massive government corruption, and rampant gang violence.   There is a constant stream of refugees fleeing these countries, but volunteer/non-profit groups like Pueblo Sin Fronteras organize caravans which are supported by donations, giving the people in the caravans food and security.   The refugees themselves don't have a political agenda, but these groups want international attention to the violence and poverty in the countries they're fleeing, and also want to push an open-borders agenda.   So these people who are legitimately trying to find a better, safer life are being used for political gain by the people they have been forced to turn to for help.    

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26 minutes ago, Stuart Ullman said:

I can't just walk into Canada or Mexico and demand citizenship. I get turned away.

But when we do the same, "that's racist".

How many times have you tried?  I intend to get Mexican citizenship when I retire.  It isn't that difficult.

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Seems like a humanitarian crisis.  We should be pushing the UN to step up.

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3 minutes ago, -fish- said:

How many times have you tried?  I intend to get Mexican citizenship when I retire.  It isn't that difficult.

Oh yeah? Let's start our own caravan. My choice is to Canada where weed will be in abundance. 

Forget citizenship, I demand free healthcare and a job. Nor do I want to pay taxes. Also, if I commit a crime I want amnesty from being deported. I'll make sure to bring my pregnant wife so they can't break up my family.

If they don't meet these demands, they're racist!

Edited by Stuart Ullman
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6 minutes ago, Stuart Ullman said:

Oh yeah? Let's start our own caravan. My choice is to Canada where weed will be in abundance. 

Forget citizenship, I demand free healthcare and a job. Nor do I want to pay taxes. Also, if I commit a crime I want amnesty from being deported. I'll make sure to bring my pregnant wife so they can't break up my family.

If they don't meet these demands, they're racist!

The level of your ignorance is staggering

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19 minutes ago, Stuart Ullman said:

Oh yeah? Let's start our own caravan. My choice is to Canada where weed will be in abundance. 

Forget citizenship, I demand free healthcare and a job. Nor do I want to pay taxes. Also, if I commit a crime I want amnesty from being deported. I'll make sure to bring my pregnant wife so they can't break up my family.

If they don't meet these demands, they're racist!

what race are these Canadians who are denying you citizenship?

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4 minutes ago, Juxtatarot said:

They would come seeking asylum. A wall has no impact on this.

Oh yeah, because we're their only option for asylum! Everyone in South America should just default to the United States.

We gotta take everyone. It's our responsibility to take care of the entire continent.

Edited by Stuart Ullman

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Just now, Underachievers said:

Use any means necessary to prevent access to this country.  

 

Draw the line....

Why?  Immigrants have a net positive impact on our economy.  Seems arbitrary and pointless.

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2 minutes ago, Underachievers said:

Use any means necessary to prevent access to this country.  

 

Draw the line....

Enough is enough. They're trying to take advantage of us. No more.

America first.

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6 minutes ago, Juxtatarot said:

They would come seeking asylum. A wall has no impact on this.

I'll never get the wall talk. I'm pretty conservative about our borders, and think the money that were to be put into a wall is much better served hiring more Border Patrol agents, their gear, drones and other reconnaissance equipment. That is what is effective, not 10000 year old technology.

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3 minutes ago, Stuart Ullman said:

Enough is enough. They're trying to take advantage of us. No more.

America first.

Under the Trump administration, a Department of Health and Human Services study found that refugees brought in $63 billion more in government revenues over the past decade than they cost.   Legal immigration and granting asylum to people seeking work is a net benefit for Americans.

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2 minutes ago, Dedfin said:

I'll never get the wall talk. I'm pretty conservative about our borders, and think the money that were to be put into a wall is much better served hiring more Border Patrol agents, their gear, drones and other reconnaissance equipment. That is what is effective, not 10000 year old technology.

But Trump's will be transparent and rope-proof!

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3 minutes ago, -fish- said:

Under the Trump administration, a Department of Health and Human Services study found that refugees brought in $63 billion more in government revenues over the past decade than they cost.   Legal immigration and granting asylum to people seeking work is a net benefit for Americans.

This isn't about the money. This is about the disrespect these people show tearing down fences. This is about the disrespect these people show thinking they're entitled to illegally enter our country, because they say so.

This is about the disrespect that out all of the countries in North and South America, apparently, the United States is the only country that should be granting asylum. Not Mexico, the Houndouras, Guatamala. Nope. It "has" to be the United States for reasons unknown.

This is about the disrespect that if you disagree that all South Americans should be allowed illegal entry into the United States; that you're ignorant, a racist, a bigot, or xenophobic.

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10 minutes ago, -fish- said:

But Trump's will be transparent and rope-proof!

oh yeah, and 10 feet higher. I mean, I get why Trump fans buy this pantload, because it's a symbolic thing. That's all they process is symbolism, not actual tangible results for anything.

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Please be cool in here.

Can we start over? I know just a tiny bit of this.

Can I ask a few questions?

4000 people are headed to the US and want to enter, correct?

They are refugees from a country other than Mexico?

Does it matter they're from another country besides Mexico?

They are asking for asylum in the US? 

Aside from the "in the open" part, what are the main differences between asking for asylum and crossing the border in secret?

Are our immigration laws different for a refugee?

Is something like this handled differently than normal for the border?

If it is illegal for them to enter or be taken in as refugees, is the main thing for people in favor of letting them in that they want to draw attention to our current laws and change them? Or are they saying they should be allowed in with our current laws?

Bottom line, these are humans. Clearly in need. Regardless of whether you think they should be allowed in or not, please be respectful. 

 

 

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Sorry. Are they currently in Mexico headed to the US or are they still in Guatemala trying to get into Mexico?

 

Quote

2. On Friday, thousands of Central Americans reached a standoff with Mexican riot police at the Guatemala-Mexico border. A migrant caravanconsisting of over 3,000 people stormed the Guatemala-Mexico border fence and rushed onto a narrow bridge over the Suchiate River that runs along the border. Migrants met a wall of riot police with shields and pepper spray blocking the bridge’s exit into Mexico. Police and immigration agents have started to allow small groups of 10-30 migrants without passports through to Mexico where they can apply for refugee status. Some migrants slept on the bridge through the night, while others who were tired of waiting attempted to swim across the Suchiate River. In an address to the nation, Mexican President Enrique Pena Nieto said that "Mexico does not permit and will not permit entry into its territory in an irregular fashion, much less in a violent fashion." Mexican officials have vowed to detain and deport those who attempt to cross the border illegally. On Thursday, President Donald Trump threatened to close the US-Mexico border if Mexico did not stop the migrant caravan. – CBS

 

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35 minutes ago, -fish- said:

Under the Trump administration, a Department of Health and Human Services study found that refugees brought in $63 billion more in government revenues over the past decade than they cost.   Legal immigration and granting asylum to people seeking work is a net benefit for Americans.

The National Review (a right leaning source but one that I don’t believe tries to deceive) makes some interesting rebuttals to that study. You might find it interesting. Link

 

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After WWII we began cleaning up after ourselves. We rebuild Japan, Germany and the rest of Western Europe as well as we could. It's really our responsibility of a world leader to do that type of thing. I suppose Ronald Reagan was paranoid of communism (how scary!!!) taking over the  western hemisphere so he backed various far right wing dictators to quash the ongoing revolutions across Central America. Well, that's our mess too. Why didn't we invest in Central America like we did Japan and Europe? Instead we left a vacuum there and drug lords filled it. We took their chance at a government they wanted and replaced it with chaos and poverty. Now we blame the refugees we created for wanting a chance to raise their kids at safety? Can we not be jerks to our southern neighbors just once please? I think it's time to take ownership of the blame here and the least we can do is take care of these people.

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@Joe Bryant

Here are some stats about asylum seekers over the years. They are a little dated (through Sept 16) but will still give you a good idea. Lots of folks apply. The denial rate from Central American countries is quite high. It also makes a huge difference if you are represented by an attorney.

Here is a fact sheet  about asylum in the U.S.

 

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29 minutes ago, Joe Bryant said:

Sorry. Are they currently in Mexico headed to the US or are they still in Guatemala trying to get into Mexico?

 

 

They literally broke into Mexico Yesterday. 

 

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32 minutes ago, Joe Bryant said:

Please be cool in here.

Can we start over? I know just a tiny bit of this.

Can I ask a few questions?

4000 people are headed to the US and want to enter, correct?

They are refugees from a country other than Mexico?

Does it matter they're from another country besides Mexico?

They are asking for asylum in the US? 

Aside from the "in the open" part, what are the main differences between asking for asylum and crossing the border in secret?

Are our immigration laws different for a refugee?

Is something like this handled differently than normal for the border?

If it is illegal for them to enter or be taken in as refugees, is the main thing for people in favor of letting them in that they want to draw attention to our current laws and change them? Or are they saying they should be allowed in with our current laws?

Bottom line, these are humans. Clearly in need. Regardless of whether you think they should be allowed in or not, please be respectful. 

 

 

Hi Joe, with regard to your questions and comments, I’ll do my best to answer since I started the thread. 

1. Yes. 

2. Yes. 

3. Personally I don’t care where they’re from. So long as you’re not a racist or bigot this shouldn’t matter to anyone, IMO. 

4. Most will ask for asylum yes. 

5. These people are not breaking the law by asking for asylum. If they attempt to cross our borders without permission, they are breaking the law, but it’s a misdemeanor. 

6. Yes. We make special exceptions for refugees. Or at least, we have in the past. President Trump has attempted to stop this through executive orders. 

7. Yes. Those who seek asylum are a special situation. 

8. I would like to let these people in. And so would like our laws to change to allow more of these types in. But I have no interest in using them as pawns to change the law. 

9. I agree. Obviously I’ve been respectful to them. I’ve been less respectful to some of the people here. But to be honest, some of the rhetoric in this thread has been ugly and ignorant. I’m not going to be respectful to such responses. I think they need to be called out. 

 

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Another dumb question.

If I'm a person in Mexico and I want to get into the US, are my two options?

1. Sneak in illegally

2. Be in the open and ask for asylum.

What are the pros and cons of each?

Or maybe a better way to ask - If you were Mexican and trying to get in, what would you do?

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To me this really isn’t about the refugees anyhow. It’s about us. Who are we? What kind of country do we want to live in? 

Unlike many progressives I know (though not all) I am a big believer in American exceptionalism. I think we’re the greatest nation that ever existed in world history, and I could give you all the reasons why. Our treatment of refugees and immigrants throughout our history is one of the biggest reasons. My grandparents escaped Russian progroms and the Holocaust because the United States was willing to save them and accept them. When I stood next to the Statue of Liberty two years ago, I couldn’t help bawling. 

That’s one reason we’re the greatest country ever. Another reason is because we saved the world from tyranny. I have a great uncle who survived the Bataan Death March. My wife has cousins who fought in the Battle of the Bulge. The United States saved the world from Nazi Germany, Imperial Japan, and later on Soviet Russia. We did. Without us the world falls apart and freedom dies. 

And now we have a President who, along with his supporters, wants to remove the two pillars that have made the USA special: our treatment of refugees and immigrants, and our international commitment to freedom. Some of us are determined not to let that happen. 

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2 minutes ago, Joe Bryant said:

Another dumb question.

If I'm a person in Mexico and I want to get into the US, are my two options?

1. Sneak in illegally

2. Be in the open and ask for asylum.

What are the pros and cons of each?

Or maybe a better way to ask - If you were Mexican and trying to get in, what would you do?

It’s not dumb at all. 

Mexicans are not granted asylum, and there’s almost no way to come here legally. 

If I were a Mexican I would sneak across the border. That would be the best option and the most moral one as well. 

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4 minutes ago, Joe Bryant said:

Another dumb question.

If I'm a person in Mexico and I want to get into the US, are my two options?

1. Sneak in illegally

2. Be in the open and ask for asylum.

What are the pros and cons of each?

Or maybe a better way to ask - If you were Mexican and trying to get in, what would you do?

Assuming you don’t have money for a good attorney and don’t have an atypical story, asylum probably isn’t a good option.

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2 minutes ago, timschochet said:

To me this really isn’t about the refugees anyhow. It’s about us. Who are we? What kind of country do we want to live in? 

Unlike many progressives I know (though not all) I am a big believer in American exceptionalism. I think we’re the greatest nation that ever existed in world history, and I could give you all the reasons why. Our treatment of refugees and immigrants throughout our history is one of the biggest reasons. My grandparents escaped Russian progroms and the Holocaust because the United States was willing to save them and accept them. When I stood next to the Statue of Liberty two years ago, I couldn’t help bawling. 

That’s one reason we’re the greatest country ever. Another reason is because we saved the world from tyranny. I have a great uncle who survived the Bataan Death March. My wife has cousins who fought in the Battle of the Bulge. The United States saved the world from Nazi Germany, Imperial Japan, and later on Soviet Russia. We did. Without us the world falls apart and freedom dies. 

And now we have a President who, along with his supporters, wants to remove the two pillars that have made the USA special: our treatment of refugees and immigrants, and our international commitment to freedom. Some of us are determined not to let that happen. 

Am I understanding you right in this is really more about changing immigration laws? We've had this discussion before and I think I understand where you are. Much more relaxed on who gets in but not open open boarders, right? I think that's a fair conversation to have.

But on this particular situation, these people are not currently allowed in, right? Or at least they have to go through the normal asylum process, right?

I think where people take notice sometimes is if the discussion is not, "We should change the law" and instead becomes, "Let's ignore our current law and just do what we want". If I'm hearing things right, that's what has people excited. 

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1 minute ago, Juxtatarot said:

Assuming you don’t have money for a good attorney and don’t have an atypical story, asylum probably isn’t a good option.

Thanks. Is it fair to say there are lots (tons?) more people caught trying to sneak in than there are people asking for asylum?

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Welll... I crap you negative on this but Trump just said "I think it's a man-made caravan"

:mellow:

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22 hours ago, timschochet said:

The country that you seem to want to live in and the country that I want to live in are not the same place. 

Thankfully your type of thinking is not in power, otherwise we are a 3rd world country.

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9 minutes ago, Joe Bryant said:

Thanks. Is it fair to say there are lots (tons?) more people caught trying to sneak in than there are people asking for asylum?

Yes, looking at some numbers it appears at least 10 times as many.

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12 minutes ago, Joe Bryant said:

Am I understanding you right in this is really more about changing immigration laws? We've had this discussion before and I think I understand where you are. Much more relaxed on who gets in but not open open boarders, right? I think that's a fair conversation to have.

But on this particular situation, these people are not currently allowed in, right? Or at least they have to go through the normal asylum process, right?

I think where people take notice sometimes is if the discussion is not, "We should change the law" and instead becomes, "Let's ignore our current law and just do what we want". If I'm hearing things right, that's what has people excited. 

There is no law on asylum or taking in refugees. Each time it happens it’s a subjective decision by the government. 

Personally yes I would like to change our laws on immigration in general. I don’t expect most here to agree with me on that; they never do. But this is a specific situation. 

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