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timschochet

Anti-Semitism

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Since there seems to be a lot of misunderstanding about this, I think it deserves its own discussion. The following is strictly my opinion, but it is largely based on the writings of a lot of experts I have read on this subject:

Anti-Semitism from the Left

The most prominent anti-Semite from the Left in this country is Louis Farrakhan. If you are a liberal or leftist politician who has accepted Farrakhan in any way (shaken his hand, posed for a picture with him, or with any prominent known member of the Nation of Islam during Farrakhan’s time as leader) you are not engaging in anti-Semitism but you are at least tolerating it in your midst, and this unfortunately has included in the past many Democratic Party leaders, including Barack Obama. 

There is also, in some cases, anti-Semitism among some on the left who have been critics of Israel. Many critics of Israel, including some anti-Zionists, are not anti-Semitic, but some are. You can tell by the sort of language they use and by the arguments they make. If they claim that American support of Israel is the result of our government being heavily influenced by a few powerful donors, bankers, owners of the media, etc., they are engaging in anti-semitism. 

Anti-Semitism from the Right 

The most prominent anti-Semite from the Right in this country used to be Pat Buchanan, now it is probably David Duke. Actually there is no single right wing anti-Semite with the prominence of a Louis Farrakhan, but that being said, currently Jew hatred among the Right is much larger than it is among the left, because it is a significant element of the alt-right and white nationalist movements, which have achieved a certain amount of legitimacy with the emergence of of Donald Trump’s presidency. 

I do not believe that Donald Trump is an anti-Semite, nor is Steve Bannon IMO (though he’s been accused of it) nor is Stephen Miller (Miller is Jewish). But they, along with several conservative talk show hosts and other figures, are guilty of allowing anti-Semitic tropes into the mainstream, primarily two of them: 

The first trope is the use of the word “globalism” as a description of something evil or sinister. It’s not anti-Semitic to be a nationalist, nor is it anti-Semitic to be opposed to globalism. But when you blame globalism on bankers or Wall Street working behind the scenes, who just happen to mostly have Jewish names, you are engaging in anti-Semitism. 

The second trope involves specifically George Soros, who has come to take the place of the Rothschilds among anti-Semites as the Jew who is secretly or openly financing America’s destruction. It is not anti-Semitic to oppose Soros’ liberal activities. But it is decidedly anti-Semitic to give him the kind of weight in Democratic affairs he is currently being constantly accused of, including false accusations like his funding of Kavanaugh protestors or his funding of the migrant caravan (President Trump among many others have made both of these false accusations.) When Soros is used as a behind the scenes scapegoat for everything that conservatives don’t like, that is classic anti-semitism. 

 

 

Feel free to agree or disagree. 

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Barack Obama wasn’t ever a party leader while embracing Farrakhan. He denounced Farrakhan during his first presidential run. He did, I believe l, accept his endorsement without complaint while running for the Senate  

https://blogs.wsj.com/washwire/2008/02/26/obama-denounces-farrakhan-endorsement/

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18 minutes ago, Henry Ford said:

Barack Obama wasn’t ever a party leader while embracing Farrakhan. He denounced Farrakhan during his first presidential run. He did, I believe l, accept his endorsement without complaint while running for the Senate  

https://blogs.wsj.com/washwire/2008/02/26/obama-denounces-farrakhan-endorsement/

Had him to his office on capital hill. Trump denounced David Duke numerous times and never had him to his office. Or met him 

Edited by Leroy Green

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9 minutes ago, jon_mx said:

There is a lot more anti-Israel sentiment on the left than the right.  

Job do you equate anti-Isreal with anti-Semitism?

Edited by toshiba
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6 minutes ago, jon_mx said:

There is a lot more anti-Israel sentiment on the left than the right.  

That is true, though I would argue that the pro-Israel sentiment on the right is actually pro-Right wing Israeli policy. 

But as I pointed out, while anti Israel and anti-Semitic attitudes can merge, they’re not the same thing. 

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37 minutes ago, jon_mx said:

There is a lot more anti-Israel sentiment on the left than the right.  

Right....but this is a thread about anti-semitism.  

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49 minutes ago, timschochet said:

 

But as I pointed out, while anti Israel and anti-Semitic attitudes can merge, they’re not the same thing. 

1

 

Thanks. I admit I'm not knowledgeable on this. Can you unpack and elaborate?

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1 hour ago, Leroy Green said:

Trump denounced David Duke numerous times and never had him to his office. Or met him

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think Trump ever "denounced" David Duke (despite what this CNN headline claims).

He disavowed Duke. There is a difference.

"Denounce" means to condemn.

"Disavow" means to claim that you are not associated with something.

Also, Trump lied when he claimed that he didn't know anything about Duke.

So.....when you lie about someone, then disavow them without technically denouncing them, then it's a pretty good sign that you're hiding your true feelings about that person.

eta: also, Trump didn't even disavow Duke until he started getting backlash from the mainstream press!

So.....when you lie about someone, then DO NOTHING, then FINALLY disavow them ONLY BECAUSE YOU'RE UNDER PRESSURE, without technically denouncing them, then it's a VERY good sign that you're hiding your true feelings.

Edited by [scooter]
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2 hours ago, Henry Ford said:

Barack Obama wasn’t ever a party leader while embracing Farrakhan. He denounced Farrakhan during his first presidential run. He did, I believe l, accept his endorsement without complaint while running for the Senate  

https://blogs.wsj.com/washwire/2008/02/26/obama-denounces-farrakhan-endorsement/

Obama denounced Farrakhan’s endorsement. I don’t ever remember him denouncing Farrakhan.  That’s not the same thing. 

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34 minutes ago, Joe Bryant said:

 

Thanks. I admit I'm not knowledgeable on this. Can you unpack and elaborate?

I belong to a liberal synagogue.  I would say that most of the members there disagree with many of the actions taken by the Israeli government.  Most members think that Israel’s treatment of the Palestinians has been shameful.  

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1 hour ago, timschochet said:

That is true, though I would argue that the pro-Israel sentiment on the right is actually pro-Right wing Israeli policy. 

But as I pointed out, while anti Israel and anti-Semitic attitudes can merge, they’re not the same thing. 

The brand of anti-isreal rhetoric and positions taken by the more radical leftists groups such as BLM and the Green Party crosses the line into anti-Semitism.  Jewish people need to fear the left much more than the right, IMHO.  I would watch the Democratic platform in the next election because there is a good chance they will be moving towards more anti-isreal positions. 

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3 minutes ago, jon_mx said:

The brand of anti-isreal rhetoric and positions taken by the more radical leftists groups such as BLM and the Green Party crosses the line into anti-Semitism.  Jewish people need to fear the left much more than the right, IMHO.  I would watch the Democratic platform in the next election because there is a good chance they will be moving towards more anti-isreal positions. 

Do you feel like anti-Semitism is limited to Israel?

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49 minutes ago, Joe Bryant said:

 

Thanks. I admit I'm not knowledgeable on this. Can you unpack and elaborate?

Sure. There’s a short version and a long version. The long version would take too long so here is the short version: 

An Israeli critic is someone opposed to the actions of the state of Israel. That would encompass many people, including myself at times. An anti-Zionist is someone who is opposed to the existence of the state of Israel. An anti-Semite is someone who is bigoted against Jews. 3 different meanings. Sometimes they merge, but we can’t assume they do. Hope that makes sense. 

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20 minutes ago, fatguyinalittlecoat said:

I belong to a liberal synagogue.  I would say that most of the members there disagree with many of the actions taken by the Israeli government.  Most members think that Israel’s treatment of the Palestinians has been shameful.  

You can be critical of how Israel is handling the Palestinians,  but when you start comparing the plight of Palestinians with what happened to Jews under Hitler, it is anti-Semitism.

 

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7 minutes ago, moleculo said:

Do you feel like anti-Semitism is limited to Israel?

How in the world did you come to that ridiculous conclusion?

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14 minutes ago, jon_mx said:

The brand of anti-isreal rhetoric and positions taken by the more radical leftists groups such as BLM and the Green Party crosses the line into anti-Semitism.  Jewish people need to fear the left much more than the right, IMHO.  I would watch the Democratic platform in the next election because there is a good chance they will be moving towards more anti-isreal positions. 

Taking your statements one by one: 

1. It can. But it often doesn’t. 

2. I disagree. I might have agreed with you a few years ago, but not now. I explained why in my OP, but I believe the right has allowed anti-Semitic tropes into the mainstream of their rhetoric, and the left have not. 

3. You’re continuing to conflate anti-Israeli with anti-Semitic. You’re also conflating anti current Israeli government with anti-Zionist. I am pro Zionist but anti current Israeli government. I suspect a lot of Democrats are. There are a few who are anti Zionist, and I oppose them, but I don’t regard them as anti-Semitic unless they demonstrate that. 

Edited by timschochet

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3 minutes ago, jon_mx said:

You can be critical of how Israel is handling the Palestinians,  but when you start comparing the plight of Palestinians with what happened to Jews under Hitler, it is anti-Semitism.

 

No it isn’t. 

I don’t agree with that comparison, but those who make it aren’t anti-semitic. 

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2 minutes ago, jon_mx said:

How in the world did you come to that ridiculous conclusion?

 

15 minutes ago, jon_mx said:

The brand of anti-isreal rhetoric and positions taken by the more radical leftists groups such as BLM and the Green Party crosses the line into anti-Semitism.  Jewish people need to fear the left much more than the right, IMHO.  I would watch the Democratic platform in the next election because there is a good chance they will be moving towards more anti-isreal positions. 

 

2 hours ago, jon_mx said:

There is a lot more anti-Israel sentiment on the left than the right.  

No idea.

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53 minutes ago, [scooter] said:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think Trump ever "denounced" David Duke (despite what this CNN headline claims).

He disavowed Duke. There is a difference.

"Denounce" means to condemn.

"Disavow" means to claim that you are not associated with something.

Also, Trump lied when he claimed that he didn't know anything about Duke.

So.....when you lie about someone, then disavow them without technically denouncing them, then it's a pretty good sign that you're hiding your true feelings about that person.

eta: also, Trump didn't even disavow Duke until he started getting backlash from the mainstream press!

So.....when you lie about someone, then DO NOTHING, then FINALLY disavow them ONLY BECAUSE YOU'RE UNDER PRESSURE, without technically denouncing them, then it's a VERY good sign that you're hiding your true feelings.

Trump denounced Duke long before he ran for office. Early 90's. 

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Anti-Semitism Is Creeping Into Progressivism

Last weekend, organizers of a gay pride parade in Chicago ejected three people carrying pride flags emblazoned with a Jewish Star of David. Subsequent bizarre statements attempting to rationalize their action, claiming that Zionism is “an inherently white supremacist ideology” only exacerbated the sense that the organizers were deaf to the concerns of the Jewish community and engaged in anti-Semitism — denying Jews the same rights that were extended to other participants, basically to celebrate their identities as Jewish queer women.

While this incident could be dismissed as one fringe group in one city, the fact is that it does represent a wider school of thought that is fueling a trend of creeping anti-Semitism among some segments of the political left.

Over the past year, we have seen other examples that have raised eyebrows as intersectional intolerance has sprung up among the progressive community. Similar stories to the one in Chicago were reported at the Celebrate Israel Parade in New York City earlier this month.

Last summer, a plank in the platform of the Movement for Black Lives bizarrely accused Israel of genocide.

Linda Sarsour, a leader of the women’s rights movement, has lambasted Zionism as incompatible with feminismand advocates for the exclusion of pro-Israel Jews from activist groups. And some in the anti-Israel movement have accused Israel of “pink-washing,” claiming that Israel and its supporters celebrate freedoms enjoyed by the LGBTQ community in Israel to divert attention from Israel’s treatment of the Palestinians.

 

For an organization like the Anti-Defamation League, which was founded both to combat anti-Semitism and protect the Jewish people but also to secure justice and fair treatment to all Americans, these manifestations are upsetting. Frustration with particular Israeli policies does not excuse an irrational hatred of Jewish people who support its existence. But this occurs all too frequently, which provides an opportunity to make clear certain moral and practical distinctions.

For starters, the agenda of the civil rights community is the agenda of ADL. We are committed to this work because it is core to our mission.

For example, we do not agree with every tenet in the Black Lives Matterplatform. We were outraged by the baseless accusations made against Israel in the M4BL platform released last summer. However, we find common cause with many in the BLM movement around the quest to achieve educational equity, end the school-to-prison pipeline and stop the use of excessive force and the killing of unarmed African Americans by some in law enforcement

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Quote

Anti-Semitism Is Creeping Into Progressivism

Yes, indeed after a hard core Trump supporter who wore MAGA hats at Trump rallies and took selfies there shot up a synagogue while screaming "All Jews must die!, the real problem with anti-Semitism is from progressives on the left.

Good job identifying the real problem the Jewish community in this country faces.

Edited by squistion
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6 minutes ago, squistion said:

Yes, indeed after a hard core Trump supporter who wore MAGA hats at Trump rallies and took selfies there shot up a synagogue, the real problem with anti-Semitism is from progressives on the left.

Good job identifying the real problem the Jewish community in this country faces.

I did not write the article.  It was written by Jonathan Greenblatt ....CEO and National Director of the Anti-Defamation League....he probably has a pretty good handle on the problems the Jewish community in this country face, you know considering that is his job.  

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16 minutes ago, squistion said:

Yes, indeed after a hard core Trump supporter who wore MAGA hats at Trump rallies and took selfies there shot up a synagogue while screaming "All Jews must die!, the real problem with anti-Semitism is from progressives on the left.

Good job identifying the real problem the Jewish community in this country faces.

?  ?  ?

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25 minutes ago, squistion said:

Yes, indeed after a hard core Trump supporter who wore MAGA hats at Trump rallies and took selfies there shot up a synagogue while screaming "All Jews must die!, the real problem with anti-Semitism is from progressives on the left.

Good job identifying the real problem the Jewish community in this country faces.

Are you sure he was a Trump supporter? I read that he regarded Trump as too friendly with Jews. 

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51 minutes ago, Leroy Green said:

Trump denounced Duke long before he ran for office. Early 90's. 

No he didn't. When Trump quit the Reform Party in 2000, he said that he didn't want to be "associated" with David Duke, Pat Buchanan, and a Communist. Once again, he disavowed but didn't denounce.

That's how Trump maintains his white nationalist base. When he "disavows", his white nationalist supporters know that he's just winking at them. He'll never denounce them, though.

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A person is only an anti-Semite if they are prejudiced against Jews.  Anything else is literally not anti-semitism.  

This includes any and all delusions regarding George Soros and his being just an active liberal or the secret globalist leader of the world.

Edited by shader

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First the Israelis have created the equivalent of the Warsaw ghetto in Palestine. So I find that comparison apt. I find the Israeli government to be in flagrant disregard of international law and treaties to which they are signatories. So I have no problem with boycotts just as was done to the Apartheid South African government and which were also decried by many.

 I have no hate for Jewish people based on their Judaism. I have no hate for the people of Israel in general. But have a strong disgust with their government and its policies. None of this makes me an anti-semite.

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FWIW, regarding Soros, I don't know how representative I am of the general populace but until Tim wrote something the other day, I never associated him with anything Jewish. My impression of him was purely just an influential figure on the Left. 

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21 minutes ago, timschochet said:

Are you sure he was a Trump supporter? I read that he regarded Trump as too friendly with Jews. 

No, not entirely, but he was parroting Trump rhetoric about the caravans bring invaders into this country.

 

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9 minutes ago, squistion said:

No, not entirely, but he was parroting Trump rhetoric about the caravans bring invaders into this country.

 

You said he is "a hard core Trump supporter who wore MAGA hats at Trump rallies and took selfies there". Did you mean something else?

 

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5 minutes ago, Joe Bryant said:

You said he is "a hard core Trump supporter who wore MAGA hats at Trump rallies and took selfies there". Did you mean something else?

 

:bag:

Whoops, sorry, I was wrong there, I was mixing him up with the bomber suspect. My apologies.

Edited by squistion
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1 hour ago, NCCommish said:

First the Israelis have created the equivalent of the Warsaw ghetto in Palestine. So I find that comparison apt. I find the Israeli government to be in flagrant disregard of international law and treaties to which they are signatories. So I have no problem with boycotts just as was done to the Apartheid South African government and which were also decried by many.

 I have no hate for Jewish people based on their Judaism. I have no hate for the people of Israel in general. But have a strong disgust with their government and its policies. None of this makes me an anti-semite.

I agree. Which is why I wrote what I did. I actually had you in mind, NC. I disagree with you about Israel but I am quite sure that you are not an anti-Semite. 

Unfortunately I know many Jews, including some in my own family, who would regard you as an anti-Semite, or at least be very suspicious of it. And this is part of the problem. 

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1 hour ago, Joe Bryant said:

FWIW, regarding Soros, I don't know how representative I am of the general populace but until Tim wrote something the other day, I never associated him with anything Jewish. My impression of him was purely just an influential figure on the Left. 

I think that most people are like you and do not make this connection, and this includes most conservatives who are critical of him. Yet it does mean something to anti-semites, and when Soros is accused of masterminding large movements of people, that’s an anti-Semitic theme. The people who spread this lie are spreading an anti-Semitic message, even as they themselves are unaware of it (most of them.) 

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1 hour ago, shader said:

A person is only an anti-Semite if they are prejudiced against Jews.  Anything else is literally not anti-semitism.  

This includes any and all delusions regarding George Soros and his being just an active liberal or the secret globalist leader of the world.

One can spread anti-semitism without being an anti-Semite. That was one of the points of my OP. 

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Just for the record on the Pittsburgh shooter- he is a white nationalist who shares many of the attitudes that extreme Trump supporters do- but he is not a Trump supporter because Trump isn’t anti-Semitic enough for him. 

That being said, it seems to be apparent that this guy was motivated in his hatred by a perceived threat of the migrant caravan, and the notion that it has been financed by Jews (George Soros). It was President Trump who decided to emphasize this issue in the hopes of using it to win an election, and in what has been a deliberate attempt, IMO, to spread fear and bigotry. Therefore I personally believe that Trump bears a certain amount of responsibility for the massacre on Saturday. 

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1 minute ago, timschochet said:

Just for the record on the Pittsburgh shooter- he is a white nationalist who shares many of the attitudes that extreme Trump supporters do- but he is not a Trump supporter because Trump isn’t anti-Semitic enough for him. 

That being said, it seems to be apparent that this guy was motivated in his hatred by a perceived threat of the migrant caravan, and the notion that it has been financed by Jews (George Soros). It was President Trump who decided to emphasize this issue in the hopes of using it to win an election, and in what has been a deliberate attempt, IMO, to spread fear and bigotry. Therefore I personally believe that Trump bears a certain amount of responsibility for the massacre on Saturday. 

ETA: it appears that some Jewish leaders in Pittsburgh agree with me on this: 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/thehill.com/homenews/administration/413558-jewish-leaders-say-trumps-not-welcome-in-pittsburgh-until-he%3famp

Trump wants to come to Pittsburgh, and these leaders have told him that he is not welcome there until he denounces white nationalism. 

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32 minutes ago, timschochet said:

I think that most people are like you and do not make this connection, and this includes most conservatives who are critical of him. Yet it does mean something to anti-semites, and when Soros is accused of masterminding large movements of people, that’s an anti-Semitic theme. The people who spread this lie are spreading an anti-Semitic message, even as they themselves are unaware of it (most of them.) 

Imo not liking Soros isn’t an anti-Semitic message.  It’s an anti-Soros message.  

All anti-semitics are biased against Soros.  Not all soros “haters” (for lack of a better word) are anti-semitics.

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33 minutes ago, timschochet said:

One can spread anti-semitism without being an anti-Semite. That was one of the points of my OP. 

I don’t know if I agree with that.  But I’m headed to bed and I’ll revisit in the morning.

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33 minutes ago, timschochet said:

ETA: it appears that some Jewish leaders in Pittsburgh agree with me on this: 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/thehill.com/homenews/administration/413558-jewish-leaders-say-trumps-not-welcome-in-pittsburgh-until-he%3famp

Trump wants to come to Pittsburgh, and these leaders have told him that he is not welcome there until he denounces white nationalism. 

Strong words from those 11 leaders. I wonder if Orthodox Jews, who mostly love Trump, feel the same way.

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4 hours ago, jerseydevil20 said:

Obama denounced Farrakhan’s endorsement. I don’t ever remember him denouncing Farrakhan.  That’s not the same thing. 

He specifically denounced his history of antisemitic remarks. 

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1 hour ago, timschochet said:

I agree. Which is why I wrote what I did. I actually had you in mind, NC. I disagree with you about Israel but I am quite sure that you are not an anti-Semite. 

Unfortunately I know many Jews, including some in my own family, who would regard you as an anti-Semite, or at least be very suspicious of it. And this is part of the problem. 

It's funny because I grew up in an area where I spent a lot of time around Jewish kids. Dated some very lovely Jewish young ladies. I have a lot of respect for what the Jewish people have gone through and am lucky enough to have known some folks who survived the Holocaust. And it's really that history of knowing and associating with all those folks that informs my disagreement with the actions of the current government of Israel. I learned it from the Jewish folks I knew.

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28 minutes ago, SoBeDad said:

Strong words from those 11 leaders. I wonder if Orthodox Jews, who mostly love Trump, feel the same way.

Probably not. 

There are some Orthodox, Lubavitcher, and Hasidic Jews who support Democrats, but on the last few decades the majority support Republicans. But all of these combined are a small minority of American Jews. 

The majority of American Jews are Democrats. There are complicated reasons for this, dating back to Jewish involvement in the history of the labor movement. 

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3 hours ago, Joe Bryant said:

FWIW, regarding Soros, I don't know how representative I am of the general populace but until Tim wrote something the other day, I never associated him with anything Jewish. My impression of him was purely just an influential figure on the Left. 

My impression is most people wouldn't know who he is but when he's talked about it seems his religion is mentioned about as often as which draft pick was used for Tom Brady or what college Ryan Fitzpatrick attended.

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