Fantasy Football - Footballguys Forums
Sign in to follow this  
timschochet

Anti-Semitism

Recommended Posts

6 hours ago, shader said:

All anti-semitics are biased against Soros.  Not all soros “haters” (for lack of a better word) are anti-semitics.

This.

I'm not a big fan of individuals dumping billions into the political system and having that sort of influence.  As such, I have never been a fan of Soros.  I knew the name.  I knew his influence.  I had no idea he was Jewish....don't really care honestly.  I wouldn't be able to pick the guy out of a lineup of one.

As with racism, there is an element of intent.  "Why" is part of the hate equation.  So I disagree that one can be anti-semitic without that element of intent.  It seems pretty simple to me.....if "because he/she is a Jew" is part of the logic and motivation, they are anti-semitic.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Leroy Green said:

You guys love to reach. Not know him as in he never met him.  

2015:

>>Heilemann: “Would you repudiate David Duke?”

Trump: “Sure, I would do that, if it made you feel better. I don’t know anything about him. Somebody told me yesterday, whoever he is, he did endorse me. Actually I don’t think it was an endorsement. He said I was absolutely the best of all of the candidates.”<<

- Eta - More, I guess I forgot he did this several times.

Edited by SaintsInDome2006
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 hours ago, timschochet said:

The most prominent anti-Semite from the Right in this country used to be Pat Buchanan, now it is probably David Duke.

Sorry I don’t think Buchanan ever had a step up on DD in this category.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, The Commish said:

This.

I'm not a big fan of individuals dumping billions into the political system and having that sort of influence.  As such, I have never been a fan of Soros.  I knew the name.  I knew his influence.  I had no idea he was Jewish....don't really care honestly.  I wouldn't be able to pick the guy out of a lineup of one.

As with racism, there is an element of intent.  "Why" is part of the hate equation.  So I disagree that one can be anti-semitic without that element of intent.  It seems pretty simple to me.....if "because he/she is a Jew" is part of the logic and motivation, they are anti-semitic.  

I never argued that one can be anti-Semitic without intent. What I wrote is that one can spread anti-semitism without knowing it. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Tim, somewhere a while back you and I discussed that acts of antisemitism were rising here and abroad, especially Europe. It’s probably worth posting some stats on that when you get the chance. I will if I can later. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, timschochet said:

I never argued that one can be anti-Semitic without intent. What I wrote is that one can spread anti-semitism without knowing it. 

I don't see a significant difference in our positions, but ok.  "I don't know what I don't know" applies to both and in both situations isn't part of the "why" that's necessary.

I get that it might appear to be anti-semitic to those observing, but that doesn't make it so.  One has to understand the motivations before throwing that label out there.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
15 hours ago, timschochet said:

It is not anti-Semitic to oppose Soros’ liberal activities. But it is decidedly anti-Semitic to give him the kind of weight in Democratic affairs he is currently being constantly accused of, including false accusations like his funding of Kavanaugh protestors or his funding of the migrant caravan (President Trump among many others have made both of these false accusations.) When Soros is used as a behind the scenes scapegoat for everything that conservatives don’t like, that is classic anti-semitism. 

I think you’re missing a beat here and I think it happened generally with many observers after Dylan Roof’s rampage. The problem with nationalism isn’t just nationalism, and frankly as Commish pointed out Soros could be legitimately criticized.  The problem is in people subtly crossing over into white nationalism and white supremacism, and there are many online influences today that did not exist once. Gab & Stormfront are two prominent sources. 4chan, 8chan are others. This isn’t about hate, it’s about ideology. The problem with Trump is that he pushes the crisis and by himself creates a crisis, for political reasons, which these groups and influencers then take advantage of.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
25 minutes ago, SaintsInDome2006 said:

Tim, somewhere a while back you and I discussed that acts of antisemitism were rising here and abroad, especially Europe. It’s probably worth posting some stats on that when you get the chance. I will if I can later. 

Anti-Semitic Incidents Surged Nearly 60% in 2017, According to New ADL Report: https://www.adl.org/news/press-releases/anti-semitic-incidents-surged-nearly-60-in-2017-according-to-new-adl-report?fbclid=IwAR0UMk9g7BLYp8GjHrorGaImNByKD9qgOPcKhNDQ9B72rkza8H_U6rc_h38

The biggest increase was in acts of vandalism. If Trump challenged David Duke and others, I think the trend could be reversed.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think anti-semitism is different than racism or hating gay people. I think it's more about jealousy of their success. If Jewish people were known more for being blue collar workers leading middle class lives I don't think anyone would care about their actual religion. But they are a very successful group of people, so they take the brunt of a lot of criticism, with the thinking that they are in charge. Other types of people are in charge as well, of course, but people don't tend to criticize their own kind.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, SoBeDad said:

Anti-Semitic Incidents Surged Nearly 60% in 2017, According to New ADL Report: https://www.adl.org/news/press-releases/anti-semitic-incidents-surged-nearly-60-in-2017-according-to-new-adl-report?fbclid=IwAR0UMk9g7BLYp8GjHrorGaImNByKD9qgOPcKhNDQ9B72rkza8H_U6rc_h38

The biggest increase was in acts of vandalism. If Trump challenged David Duke and others, I think the trend could be reversed.

 Many of them were a hoax. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, Leroy Green said:

I think anti-semitism is different than racism or hating gay people. I think it's more about jealousy of their success. If Jewish people were known more for being blue collar workers leading middle class lives I don't think anyone would care about their actual religion. But they are a very successful group of people, so they take the brunt of a lot of criticism, with the thinking that they are in charge. Other types of people are in charge as well, of course, but people don't tend to criticize their own kind.  

This is quite simplistic and it would take too long for me to demonstrate all of your inaccuracies here. Nonetheless, you are correct that anti-semitism is different from other types of bigotry. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
45 minutes ago, timschochet said:

This is quite simplistic and it would take too long for me to demonstrate all of your inaccuracies here. Nonetheless, you are correct that anti-semitism is different from other types of bigotry. 

Alrighty then.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Twitter refused to block his hate.

 

Nation of Islam leader Louis Farrakhan is coming under fire once again for anti-Semitic remarks.

Farrakhan tweeted a video clip of a speech he gave earlier this week at an event marking the 23rd anniversary of the so-called "Million Man March," where he compared Jews to termites and called them stupid.

The caption read: "I'm not an anti-Semite. I'm anti-Termite."

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, The Commish said:

I don't see a significant difference in our positions, but ok.  "I don't know what I don't know" applies to both and in both situations isn't part of the "why" that's necessary.

I get that it might appear to be anti-semitic to those observing, but that doesn't make it so.  One has to understand the motivations before throwing that label out there.

A lot of people like to use Soros as the left-wing equivalent to the Koch brothers (whom, as an aside, I just googled to find out their religion and the second link was to a site called jewornotjew.com.  Yeah, not clicking that.  I do recall they fund a lot of Catholic schools).  A billionaire whom uses his money to wield outsized political influence. 

A lot of people use Soros as an updated, American version of the anti-Semitic tropes that have long fueled hatred.  A vision right from Protocols of the Elders of Zion where Soros is controlling the deep state along with a cabal of globalist Jews.

 The latter is inspiring a scary increase of violence against Jewish people. A lot of the rhetoric from the right currently (and the president in particular) is very similar to that used in past as a precursor to such violence.  The attacker in Pittsburgh was spouting conspiracy theories about Soros and his Jewish buddies funding the caravan to help overthrow the government. We have seen this story before.  We know the road this is going down.

I don't speak for @timschochet, but I read his point here as trying to point out to people in the former group how dangerous this rhetoric is and implore them to be careful when they pass along claims about Soros that may just be coded language from the latter group.  Even if that isn't his point, it is mine with this post.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Slapdash said:
2 hours ago, The Commish said:

I don't see a significant difference in our positions, but ok.  "I don't know what I don't know" applies to both and in both situations isn't part of the "why" that's necessary.

I get that it might appear to be anti-semitic to those observing, but that doesn't make it so.  One has to understand the motivations before throwing that label out there.

A lot of people like to use Soros as the left-wing equivalent to the Koch brothers (whom, as an aside, I just googled to find out their religion and the second link was to a site called jewornotjew.com.  Yeah, not clicking that.  I do recall they fund a lot of Catholic schools).  A billionaire whom uses his money to wield outsized political influence. 

A lot of people use Soros as an updated, American version of the anti-Semitic tropes that have long fueled hatred.  A vision right from Protocols of the Elders of Zion where Soros is controlling the deep state along with a cabal of globalist Jews.

 The latter is inspiring a scary increase of violence against Jewish people. A lot of the rhetoric from the right currently (and the president in particular) is very similar to that used in past as a precursor to such violence.  The attacker in Pittsburgh was spouting conspiracy theories about Soros and his Jewish buddies funding the caravan to help overthrow the government. We have seen this story before.  We know the road this is going down.

I don't speak for @timschochet, but I read his point here as trying to point out to people in the former group how dangerous this rhetoric is and implore them to be careful when they pass along claims about Soros that may just be coded language from the latter group.  Even if that isn't his point, it is mine with this post.

This is where I am.  Initially I didn't agree with @timschochet on Soros being slammed because he is Jewish and not just Liberal.  It is hard for me to think that way because I have a hard time understanding it.  However, I have come to understand his point more and I probably was a bit under educated on this topic.   I know I need to keep reading/learning more about this and I am glad to have this place to sometimes point me in the right direction. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Slapdash said:

A lot of people like to use Soros as the left-wing equivalent to the Koch brothers (whom, as an aside, I just googled to find out their religion and the second link was to a site called jewornotjew.com.  Yeah, not clicking that.  I do recall they fund a lot of Catholic schools).  A billionaire whom uses his money to wield outsized political influence. 

A lot of people use Soros as an updated, American version of the anti-Semitic tropes that have long fueled hatred.  A vision right from Protocols of the Elders of Zion where Soros is controlling the deep state along with a cabal of globalist Jews.

 The latter is inspiring a scary increase of violence against Jewish people. A lot of the rhetoric from the right currently (and the president in particular) is very similar to that used in past as a precursor to such violence.  The attacker in Pittsburgh was spouting conspiracy theories about Soros and his Jewish buddies funding the caravan to help overthrow the government. We have seen this story before.  We know the road this is going down.

I don't speak for @timschochet, but I read his point here as trying to point out to people in the former group how dangerous this rhetoric is and implore them to be careful when they pass along claims about Soros that may just be coded language from the latter group.  Even if that isn't his point, it is mine with this post.

Agree 100% actually.  They need to be careful.  And on the flip side, we all need to be careful in labeling these things without understanding the person's reason/motivation for doing so.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Leroy Green said:

I don't like Soros' politics, how he made his money, and how he throws it around. I'm Anti-Soros. 

What specifically don't you approve of exactly? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, The Commish said:

Agree 100% actually.  They need to be careful.  And on the flip side, we all need to be careful in labeling these things without understanding the person's reason/motivation for doing so.

I thought so, just wanted to lay it out a bit more explicitly. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, SaintsInDome2006 said:

The ADL doesn’t want to count hoaxes, I’m sure they don’t.

They kinda did. It says in their report. 

Now I am sure you may argue the definition of a hoax, but apparently 163 of the incidents were bomb threats that the vast majority of were called in from one student in israel. They were counted.

They acknowledge that better reporting procedures and increased sensitivity also contributed to the increase. Which is a good thing. They point out that a bunch of these incidents were on the level of a student drawing a swastika in another students notebook. My bet is that 5 years ago such an action doesn't get reported to the ADL or even to school officials. That is something that should be reported. They also point out that these incidents are still likely under-reported. 

They get data from the media. 

But anyway here is the report. Feel free to draw your own conclusions. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
27 minutes ago, toshiba said:

This is where I am.  Initially I didn't agree with @timschochet on Soros being slammed because he is Jewish and not just Liberal.  It is hard for me to think that way because I have a hard time understanding it.  However, I have come to understand his point more and I probably was a bit under educated on this topic.   I know I need to keep reading/learning more about this and I am glad to have this place to sometimes point me in the right direction. 

I may have mentioned this before, but this is one reason I found the Holocaust Museum in DC so fascinating.  I really learned a lot about the history of anti-Semitism both prior to the Holocaust and around the world currently.  I had thought of Hitler/Nazi Germany as much more of a one off than it actually is.  I was very ignorant.  So I appreciate Tim and others taking the time to try and do some education here.  

Edited by Slapdash
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, Slapdash said:
25 minutes ago, toshiba said:

This is where I am.  Initially I didn't agree with @timschochet on Soros being slammed because he is Jewish and not just Liberal.  It is hard for me to think that way because I have a hard time understanding it.  However, I have come to understand his point more and I probably was a bit under educated on this topic.   I know I need to keep reading/learning more about this and I am glad to have this place to sometimes point me in the right direction. 

I may have mentioned this before, but this is one reason I found the Holocaust Museum in DC so fascinating.  I really learned a lot about the history of anti-Semitism both prior to the Holocaust and around the world currently.  I had thought of Hitler/Nazi Germany as much more of a one off than it actually is.  I was very ignorant.  So I appreciate Tim and other taking the time to try and do some education here.  

Completely agree!   

 

:goodposting:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
31 minutes ago, Leroy Green said:

I don't like Soros' politics, how he made his money, and how he throws it around. I'm Anti-Soros. 

Since based on your posts I’m assuming you’re a conservative, you might want to read up on Soros’s fight against Soviet Communism and how he helped to free his native Hungary. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, timschochet said:

Since based on your posts I’m assuming you’re a conservative, you might want to read up on Soros’s fight against Soviet Communism and how he helped to free his native Hungary. 

He's a socialist, right? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
25 minutes ago, Slapdash said:

I may have mentioned this before, but this is one reason I found the Holocaust Museum in DC so fascinating.  I really learned a lot about the history of anti-Semitism both prior to the Holocaust and around the world currently.  I had thought of Hitler/Nazi Germany as much more of a one off than it actually is.  I was very ignorant.  So I appreciate Tim and other taking the time to try and do some education here.  

Right. You can't understand Tim's argument - and why the Soros attacks reek of anti-semitism - without understanding the history of anti-semitism. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I believe it is tribalism, and the suspicion of others due to ignorance of siding with one's tribe and not informing oneself about others that allows this to re-seed every generation.  Information seems the key to fighting ignorance, but, unfortunately, not eradicating it.   Ignorance is renewing, self-perpetuating, and spontaneously springing forth even without propagation.  This is one of the curses of our nature.   Maybe our nature will evolve.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Leroy Green said:

I think anti-semitism is different than racism or hating gay people. I think it's more about jealousy of their success. If Jewish people were known more for being blue collar workers leading middle class lives I don't think anyone would care about their actual religion. But they are a very successful group of people, so they take the brunt of a lot of criticism, with the thinking that they are in charge. Other types of people are in charge as well, of course, but people don't tend to criticize their own kind.  

Not all Jews are bankers, doctors and lawyers. This is like saying, "I'm looking for a math tutor for my kid, and I prefer the tutor to be Asian." It's assuming that one person is a certain way based on a stereotype of an entire class of people. Your statement makes it seem like Jews shouldn't really fear anti-semitism because, hey, what's so bad about someone assuming you're a really successful businessperson based on your religion? 

Anti-semitism is prejudicial hate, pure and simple. It isn't any different from hating someone based on skin color or sexual preference. They're all forms of ignorance.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, timschochet said:

Since based on your posts I’m assuming you’re a conservative, you might want to read up on Soros’s fight against Soviet Communism and how he helped to free his native Hungary. 

I have never really understood the Soros as a bogeyman thing the right has going on.  Yes, he actively donated to political parties but the right has there fair share of billionaires doing the same (Koch, Adelson) but the right uses Soros as some sort of evil demagogue that he is controlling the world.  To me it screams of antisemitism much like attacks on the Rotchschilds happened before him.  These attacks are pretty standard attacks that have gone on for centuries against the jewish people.  

 

Edited by Redwes25

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Leroy Green said:

I think anti-semitism is different than racism or hating gay people. I think it's more about jealousy of their success. If Jewish people were known more for being blue collar workers leading middle class lives I don't think anyone would care about their actual religion. But they are a very successful group of people, so they take the brunt of a lot of criticism, with the thinking that they are in charge. Other types of people are in charge as well, of course, but people don't tend to criticize their own kind.  

These are some pretty stereotypical statements about Jewish people.  

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Joining this a little late, but as someone who has been following Soros' career for more than 25 years, I finally snapped this past week. I can no longer sit silently and watch the level of pure anti-Semitic filth that is spewed at him.

Look, it is obviously possible to be anti-Soros without being anti-Semitic. He's a rich dude who spends a lot of money on causes he believes in, and I'm sure if I disagreed with those causes, I wouldn't much like him either. But the level of vitriol he inspires is so wildly out of proportion to his actions, and is so steeped in traditional anti-Semitic tropes, that to minimize that aspect of the criticism is to put your head in the sand. (And don't even get me started on the vile smears alleging Soros, a Holocaust survivor, was a Nazi collaborator.)

When I lived in Hungary in the '90s, there was plenty of animus toward him, but it was mostly confined to the fringes. Now the ruling party uses him in their campaign posters. And sadly, the same is now true here in America as well. This Twitter thread by Jeet Heer shows how the Soros criticisms follow the exact same playbook anti-Semites have been using for centuries.

To paraphrase Andrew Gillum, if you're criticizing Soros, you may not be an anti-Semite, but anti-Semites think you're an anti-Semite. Whatever you think of him, we all have an obligation to call out this disgusting rhetoric for what it is.

 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, Redwes25 said:

These are some pretty stereotypical statements about Jewish people.  

Yes. The "very successful " stereotype is one of the worst. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, Leroy Green said:

Yes. The "very successful " stereotype is one of the worst. 

In many ways it is, because it plays into perhaps the most insidious aspect of anti-Semitism- that Jews have power to control events. This is the factor that separates anti-Semitism from almost all other bigotry.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 minutes ago, Redwes25 said:

I have never really understood the Soros as a bogeyman thing the right has going on.  Yes, he actively donated to political parties but the right has there fair share of billionaires doing the same (Koch, Adelson) but the right uses Soros as some sort of evil demagogue that he is controlling the world.  To me it screams of antisemitism much like attacks on the Rotchschilds happened before him.  These attacks are pretty standard attacks that have gone on for centuries against the jewish people.  

 

Since you brought up Sheldon Adelson, it's important to note that certain anti-Israeli leftists use Adelson in the exact same way that many conservatives use Soros, with the exact same anti-Semitic inference.  This is a smaller group (for now) but the message isn't that much different. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, timschochet said:

In many ways it is, because it plays into perhaps the most insidious aspect of anti-Semitism- that Jews have power to control events. This is the factor that separates anti-Semitism from almost all other bigotry.

Well, I know many Jewish people, all successful. None of them can control events. Can I say they are successful now? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, Leroy Green said:

Well, I know many Jewish people, all successful. None of them can control events. Can I say they are successful now? 

You shouldn't stereotype anyone.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, timschochet said:

In many ways it is, because it plays into perhaps the most insidious aspect of anti-Semitism- that Jews have power to control events. This is the factor that separates anti-Semitism from almost all other bigotry.

True, although plenty of other minorities are associated with supposedly positive traits that have a negative undertone: African Americans being good at sports (or the men being well-endowed), Asians being smart, etc.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 minutes ago, Leroy Green said:

Yes. The "very successful " stereotype is one of the worst. 

I think you have a very clear lack of knowledge on antisemitism and historical attacks on the Jewish people.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Leroy Green said:

I think anti-semitism is different than racism or hating gay people. I think it's more about jealousy of their success. If Jewish people were known more for being blue collar workers leading middle class lives I don't think anyone would care about their actual religion. But they are a very successful group of people, so they take the brunt of a lot of criticism, with the thinking that they are in charge. Other types of people are in charge as well, of course, but people don't tend to criticize their own kind.  

Most of these anti-Semitic stereotypes predate the concept of blue-collar/white-collar. We have always been viewed as outsiders, and there have always been people who hated us for it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Just thought of something: The "Jews control everything" narrative is of a piece with the "Soros was actually a Nazi" smear: Both turn reality on its head in attempting to portray Jews who are powerless as actually being the ones with power.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The Soros stuff is all about deploying dog whistles.  The people meant to hear it and understand it for what it is do.

I admittedly may have missed it but I haven't seen anything like what Soros gets being aimed at Adelson.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
25 minutes ago, Redwes25 said:

I have never really understood the Soros as a bogeyman thing the right has going on.  Yes, he actively donated to political parties but the right has there fair share of billionaires doing the same (Koch, Adelson) but the right uses Soros as some sort of evil demagogue that he is controlling the world.  To me it screams of antisemitism much like attacks on the Rotchschilds happened before him.  These attacks are pretty standard attacks that have gone on for centuries against the jewish people.  

This is a good point. There are many billionaires who donate large sums to liberal causes. But George Soros has become the figurehead of right-wing attacks. Not only that, but the attacks tend to include language about "controlling the world".

I don't think that's just a coincidence.

And while it's true that there are lots and lots of people who dislike Soros solely on the basis of his politics, I would respectfully submit that those people are rubbing shoulders with antisemites, and when they join in on the anti-Soros rhetoric, they are unwittingly advancing the antisemitic agenda.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, [scooter] said:

And while it's true that there are lots and lots of people who dislike Soros solely on the basis of his politics, I would respectfully submit that those people are rubbing shoulders with antisemites, and when they join in on the anti-Soros rhetoric, they are unwittingly advancing the antisemitic agenda.

This.

Except we've reached the point where "unwittingly" can no longer apply. If you hear "globalist" and "puppeteer" and the like and still don't see the anti-Semitism, you are so far in denial that you are functionally indistinguishable from an anti-Semite.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, zftcg said:

This.

Except we've reached the point where "unwittingly" can no longer apply. If you hear "globalist" and "puppeteer" and the like and still don't see the anti-Semitism, you are so far in denial that you are functionally indistinguishable from an anti-Semite.

Disagree. I scorn globalists and use that term because of what they do, not what they are. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Leroy Green said:

Disagree. I scorn globalists and use that term because of what they do, not what they are. 

And it doesn't bother you in the slightest that anti-Semites have also seized on that term? If someone called Soros a "puppeteer" because he seeks to use his money to control situations, wouldn't they have an obligation to know that anti-Semites have been using such imagery since, well, pretty much since the invention of puppets?

We're not living in a vaccuum. I'm sorry if a term you use without ill intent has been corrupted by bigots. But I'm a lot more concerned about the bigotry.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 minutes ago, Leroy Green said:

Disagree. I scorn globalists and use that term because of what they do, not what they are. 

Can you define globalist for us 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Restore formatting

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Sign in to follow this  

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.