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timschochet

Anti-Semitism

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4 hours ago, zftcg said:

Relevant to this topic: I highly recommend Reza Aslan's Zealot, about the historical Jesus. One thing I learned is that, as you say, the development of what we think of as Christianity was largely the work of Paul years after Jesus' death, but also that his positioning of the religion was very much in response to the failed uprising against the Romans in 70 AD. After that, Jerusalem was destroyed and Judaism was banned. So, while the movement led by James immediately after Jesus' death had been a Jewish movement designed to appeal to other Jews, Paul sought to appeal to Gentiles and also shift blame for Jesus' death to the Jews, not because he hated them but because it was politically much safer than blaming the Romans.

I believe Paui was out preaching his own gospel years before Jerusalem fell. Which is why all the talk of "those who teach a different gospel" in his letters. The church would have everyone believe those different gospels were gnostics. But it's not hard to see in his letters that the different gospel is the one being taught by the 12 apostles. Paul pretty much lays it down in Galatians that he did not get his gospel from any man and that just because the 12 are "super apostles" doesn't mean they are more right than he is, meaning their gospel is more right than his gospel. The church would also have everyone believe that Paul and the 12 apostles (mainly Peter) resolved their obvious differences, citing the books of Peter as confirming Pauls teachings despite them being difficult to understand. But every non-believing scholar accepts that both books of Peter couldn't possibly be written by the same person, and both are very unlikely to be written by someone born in Judea. They are both forgeries. Neither are written by Peter. Without those books, their really isn't even an argument that the differences between Paul and the 12 was ever resolved. What resolved it is Jerusalem falling and Judea being lost pretty much killed the original belief of the 12 apostles, and Paul's version, that he made up, lived on unopposed. The four gospels were written after the fall of Jerusalem. But they weren't written to explain to the Jews what happened. They were written in Greek because Paul's version was very appealing to Greco-Roman gentiles, given the concepts Paul used to make up his gospel were pretty much borrowed (or stolen) from other pagan religions. This is why christianity is far more pagan in nature than it is Jewish. There's really nothing Jewish about it other than Jesus being Jewish. 

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I just have to say that, as an American Jew, I am beyond furious at the Israeli government providing cover for Trump. Naftali Bennett does not speak for me. I don't want Israelis lecturing me on how I should feel about a domestic political situation. But beyond my short-term anger, their actions only serve to accelerate an incredibly worrisome trend: the continued estrangement of younger and more liberal Jews from Israel. I can separate my support for Israel with my opposition to its current government, but if they insist on acting like Republican party hacks at the exact moment when the Republican party is growing increasingly extreme and anti-democratic (small d), they will find growing numbers of American Jews won't bother making the distinction.

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22 minutes ago, zftcg said:

I just have to say that, as an American Jew, I am beyond furious at the Israeli government providing cover for Trump. Naftali Bennett does not speak for me. I don't want Israelis lecturing me on how I should feel about a domestic political situation. But beyond my short-term anger, their actions only serve to accelerate an incredibly worrisome trend: the continued estrangement of younger and more liberal Jews from Israel. I can separate my support for Israel with my opposition to its current government, but if they insist on acting like Republican party hacks at the exact moment when the Republican party is growing increasingly extreme and anti-democratic (small d), they will find growing numbers of American Jews won't bother making the distinction.

Would it help you to know there are a ton of Israelis who feel the same as you? There are a lot of parallels with what's going on in the Israeli and U.S. governments in relation to their overall citizenry right now. Right wing governments that don't represent the majority of the people there - but the right winger citizens are imposing their will more effectively than anyone else.

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6 minutes ago, Gr00vus said:

Would it help you to know there are a ton of Israelis who feel the same as you? There are a lot of parallels with what's going on in the Israeli and U.S. governments in relation to their overall citizenry right now. Right wing governments that don't represent the majority of the people there - but the right winger citizens are imposing their will more effectively than anyone else.

Not really. Israel has been ruled by the right for nearly 20 years, and Trump is very popular there. We Americans can point to the Electoral College and Trump's popular vote loss to say he doesn't really represent our views. While there are plenty of Israelis who don't support Bibi and his increasing lurches to the right, I don't think it's accurate to say the Israeli public as a whole is not behind him.

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I don't know if it's been mentioned, but something should be said writ large about Sheldon Adelson and AIPAC. I support Israel, but Adelson is a big driver for Trump's election and his evangelical support. He and they really need to rethink things, by which IMO that means drop Trump but like almost everyone else in power supporting him they make these compromises to get what they want, which is exactly how authoritarians gain and consolidate power. It's a mistake.

Edited by SaintsInDome2006
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6 hours ago, zftcg said:

Relevant to this topic: I highly recommend Reza Aslan's Zealot, about the historical Jesus. One thing I learned is that, as you say, the development of what we think of as Christianity was largely the work of Paul years after Jesus' death, but also that his positioning of the religion was very much in response to the failed uprising against the Romans in 70 AD. After that, Jerusalem was destroyed and Judaism was banned. So, while the movement led by James immediately after Jesus' death had been a Jewish movement designed to appeal to other Jews, Paul sought to appeal to Gentiles and also shift blame for Jesus' death to the Jews, not because he hated them but because it was politically much safer than blaming the Romans.

Do you alternative history guys all share a dislike of the enter key?

Edited by shader

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23 minutes ago, shader said:

Do you alternative history guys all share a dislike of the enter key?

:confused: 

Nothing about that sentence makes any sense to me. I wrote a short paragraph about a book that is not an alternative history.

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On ‎10‎/‎31‎/‎2018 at 3:38 PM, zftcg said:

Not really. Israel has been ruled by the right for nearly 20 years, and Trump is very popular there. We Americans can point to the Electoral College and Trump's popular vote loss to say he doesn't really represent our views. While there are plenty of Israelis who don't support Bibi and his increasing lurches to the right, I don't think it's accurate to say the Israeli public as a whole is not behind him.

I have come across quite a few Jews through my work, my daughter also teaches at a school that has a number of Jewish students. I have noticed this and my daughter agrees is that they do not hide their love for Trump. I have never heard anything but praise for Trump from them.

Then you have to take in account they despise Obama.

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23 minutes ago, Da Guru said:

I have come across quite a few Jews through my work, my daughter also teaches at a school that has a number of Jewish students. I have noticed this and my daughter agrees is that they do not hide their love for Trump. I have never heard anything but praise for Trump from them.

Then you have to take in account they despise Obama.

I'm not sure where you are from but it's exactly the opposite in my circles. I don't know how any Jewish American can support Trump, actually. 

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On 11/3/2018 at 10:15 AM, Sheriff Bart said:

I'm not sure where you are from but it's exactly the opposite in my circles. I don't know how any Jewish American can support Trump, actually. 

You must also assume that all Jewish-Americans should oppose Netenyahu and the current Israeli government, when in fact that is not nearly the case.  The Holocaust survivor, in fact a survivor of Nazi medical experiments, who runs a Holocaust museum, is a big Trump supporter.  

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On 11/3/2018 at 10:15 AM, Sheriff Bart said:

I'm not sure where you are from but it's exactly the opposite in my circles. I don't know how any Jewish American can support Trump, actually. 

Read his posts. I just assume 100% of his posts are fiction.

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21 hours ago, Dedfin said:

Read his posts. I just assume 100% of his posts are fiction.

Of course you would.  You are too narrow-minded to believe anyone might think differently than you.  This is not shocking.  The truth is there are lots of Jews who support the conservative government of Israel and like the fact that Trump is a friend to Israel. 

Edited by jon_mx

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1 minute ago, jon_mx said:

Of course you would.  You are too narrow-minded to believe anyone might think differently than you.  This is not shocking.  The truth is there are lots of Jews who support the conservative government of Israel and like the fact that Trump is a friend to Israel. 

You complain about things get personal...yet you do this.

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14 minutes ago, sho nuff said:

You complain about things get personal...yet you do this.

Dedfin insinuated that Da Guru is a liar and makes everything up.  It is Dedfin who made things personal.  Dedfin just made the declaration completely unsupported by any facts.  I supported my argument of exactly what Dedfin was doing, which was completely dismissing Da Guru based on nothing but some narrow-minded mosconception that all Jews must be against Trump, which is obviously untrue.  It is this type of crap that needs to stop. 

Edited by jon_mx

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33 minutes ago, jon_mx said:

Dedfin insinuated that Da Guru is a liar and makes everything up.  It is Dedfin who made things personal.  Dedfin just made the declaration completely unsupported by any facts.  I supported my argument of exactly what Dedfin was doing, which was completely dismissing Da Guru based on nothing but some narrow-minded mosconception that all Jews must be against Trump, which is obviously untrue.  It is this type of crap that needs to stop. 

Defin was in a discussion with another poster....that he made things personal with Guru...does not really excuse you jumping in to be personal with Dedfin.

Its that type of chiming in to other conversations and making things personal that should stop Jon.

Edited by sho nuff

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14 minutes ago, sho nuff said:

Defin was in a discussion with another poster....that he made things personal with Guru...does not really excuse you jumping in to be personal with Dedfin. 

Its that type of chiming in to other conversations and making things personal that should stop Jon.

Yes it does.  The belittlement of other posters plagues this forum and needs to be called out.  I am calling Defin out for really crappy behavior as should other posters.  But everyone ignores this kind of stuff when it is their side doing it.  

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22 hours ago, Dedfin said:

Read his posts. I just assume 100% of his posts are fiction.

meh....this faction of Jews certainly exists.  How else do you think their current leader could be their current leader?  There is certainly a group in Israel that looks pretty similar to our Trump supporters.  

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16 minutes ago, jon_mx said:

Yes it does.  The belittlement of other posters plagues this forum and needs to be called out.  I am calling Defin out for really crappy behavior as should other posters.  But everyone ignores this kind of stuff when it is their side doing it.  

Most ignore almost all of it when it is that tame Jon...the only reason I said anything is because you have been complaining a lot about things getting personal...yet you jumped right into a conversation and did the same thing.

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On 11/3/2018 at 9:49 AM, Da Guru said:

I have come across quite a few Jews through my work, my daughter also teaches at a school that has a number of Jewish students. I have noticed this and my daughter agrees is that they do not hide their love for Trump. I have never heard anything but praise for Trump from them.

Then you have to take in account they despise Obama.

Are those Jews that you and your daughter know particularly religious? There is a very clear split among the American Jewish community: the more liberal denominations (Reform, Conservative, unaffiliated) are strong liberal Democrats and the Orthodox are very Republican.

Also, my original post was about Israelis, not American Jews. My point was that I think Bibi represents the views of the Israeli public fairly well, which is how he's managed to stay in power this long. There are plenty of things I disagree with him about, and plenty of worrying trends in Israeli democracy as a whole, but I can't say that he has relied on undemocratic methods or authoritarian tactics.

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18 hours ago, Rove! said:

https://dailycaller.com/2018/11/03/nyc-synagogue-vandalism-suspect/

 

former City Hall employee and Democratic activist charged in anti-Semitic hate crimes

Poor guy needs help. Going to feel mighty bad I imagine once his demons get straightened out.

At least De Blasio and Cuomo urge restraint and understanding, err, De Blasio claimed "the graffiti is the vilest kind of hate" and Cuomo "directed the State's Hate Crimes Task Force to investigate this hideous act and hold those responsible accountable to the full extent of the law."

 

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Republicans attack Jewish candidates across the U.S. with an age-old caricature: Fistfuls of cash

My (not-so) favorite part was the response of the NC GOP:

Quote

Dallas Woodhouse, executive director of the North Carolina Republican Party, dismissed questions about the Schumer ad in an email.

“The question itself, not the mailer, is a racist anti-Semitic smear,” he wrote. “It is just one more final disgusting attempt to Kavanaugh Republican candidates and activities. We don’t track people’s religion here or lack thereof.”

No anti-Semite! No anti-Semite! YOU'RE the anti-Semite!

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43 minutes ago, zftcg said:

Republicans attack Jewish candidates across the U.S. with an age-old caricature: Fistfuls of cash

My (not-so) favorite part was the response of the NC GOP:

No anti-Semite! No anti-Semite! YOU'RE the anti-Semite!

Gross on many levels.

And to think there's people asking why some of us care so much about this election, or politics in general.

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2 minutes ago, Skoo said:

All 3 of those articles are specifically about MONEY, so it makes sense to have money pictured.

Swing and a miss.

and when has election ever been about MONEY...

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3 minutes ago, Rove! said:

and when has election ever been about MONEY...

Swing and a miss.

You really whiffed on that one. Maybe it's time to try a different sport.

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52 minutes ago, Rove! said:

So is your position that both are offensive, or that neither are? Or is your only goal to sit on the sidelines and take pot shots?

For the record, I think it's generally a bad idea to avoid any invocation of tropes against minorities who have historically faced discrimination, so yeah, I don't think those were the best choices of the DB's design department. But there is a difference between an unfortunate design choice and a seeming pattern in campaign materials whose entire purpose is to influence voters, often at the subconscious level. Also, the kicker for me was the one where they dropped the candidate's maiden name, which she uses professionally, and only listed her Jewish married name.

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2 minutes ago, zftcg said:

So is your position that both are offensive, or that neither are? Or is your only goal to sit on the sidelines and take pot shots?

For the record, I think it's generally a bad idea to avoid any invocation of tropes against minorities who have historically faced discrimination, so yeah, I don't think those were the best choices of the DB's design department. But there is a difference between an unfortunate design choice and a seeming pattern in campaign materials whose entire purpose is to influence voters, often at the subconscious level. Also, the kicker for me was the one where they dropped the candidate's maiden name, which she uses professionally, and only listed her Jewish married name.

My position is that many times these things are pure happenstance and that money and politics are so intertwined that picturing a politician and money in an image is natural. 

Of course, we did see in the Democratic primaries where the Democrats supporting Hillary used anti-Semitic attitudes of the voters against Bernie Sanders....

 

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26 minutes ago, Rove! said:

Of course, we did see in the Democratic primaries where the Democrats supporting Hillary used anti-Semitic attitudes of the voters against Bernie Sanders....

Yeah, the Democrats are the REAL party of racism and bigotry!

 

 

 

 

 

 

Said no serious person ever.

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24 minutes ago, Skoo said:

Yeah, the Democrats are the REAL party of racism and bigotry!

you left out slavery

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3 minutes ago, Rove! said:

you left out slavery

I know this is your shtick and all, but as a Jew can I kindly ask you to please take a pass on this one, especially given recent events?  There's plenty of other opportunities for mindless trolling elsewhere in the politics forum. 

TIA.

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1 hour ago, Skoo said:

Yeah, the Democrats are the REAL party of racism and bigotry!

 

 

 

 

 

 

Said no serious person ever.

Ever?  Democrats filibustered the Civil Rights Act...

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2 minutes ago, TobiasFunke said:

None of that changes the fact that Democrats filibustered the Civil Rights Act.  In fact it was the longest filibuster in history.   And 80 percent of Republicans voted for it vs. 60 percent of Dems.   It is not a proud moment for the Dems despite the ridiculous spin 

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1 minute ago, jon_mx said:

None of that changes the fact that Democrats filibustered the Civil Rights Act.  In fact it was the longest filibuster in history.   And 80 percent of Republicans voted for it vs. 60 percent of Dems.   It is not a proud moment for the Dems despite the ridiculous spin 

It was a proud moment for liberals and libertarian conservatives. It was a shameful moment for southern racists and social conservatives. 

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10 minutes ago, timschochet said:

It was a proud moment for liberals and libertarian conservatives. It was a shameful moment for southern racists and social conservatives. 

MLK was a social conservative.  

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On 11/6/2018 at 2:14 PM, jon_mx said:

And 80 percent of Republicans voted for it vs. 60 percent of Dems.   It is not a proud moment for the Dems despite the ridiculous spin 

All this proves is that southern Democrats are more racist than northern Democrats, and southern Republicans are more racist than northern Republicans.

And the most racist group of them all is southern Republicans (0% of which voted for the Civil Rights bill).

And now the south is mostly Republican. That's not a coincidence.

Every time you guys bring up the Civil Rights bill in an attempt to prove that Democrats are racist, it just reminds everyone that the most racist group of them all is the Republicans.

 

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13 minutes ago, [scooter] said:

All this proves is that southern Democrats are more racist than northern Democrats, and southern Republicans are more racist than northern Republicans.

And the most racist group of them all is southern Republicans (0% of which voted for the Civil Rights bill).

And now the south is mostly Republican. That's not a coincidence.

Every time you guys bring up the Civil Rights bill in an attempt to prove that Democrats are racist, it just reminds everyone that the most racist group of them all is the Republicans.

 

It also shows a lack of understanding of the demographics and history of the parties.  Which has been explained to those making that argument many times...yet it keeps coming up.

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12 hours ago, [scooter] said:

All this proves is that southern Democrats are more racist than northern Democrats, and southern Republicans are more racist than northern Republicans.

And the most racist group of them all is southern Republicans (0% of which voted for the Civil Rights bill).

And now the south is mostly Republican. That's not a coincidence.

Every time you guys bring up the Civil Rights bill in an attempt to prove that Democrats are racist, it just reminds everyone that the most racist group of them all is the Republicans.

 

Nice try.  The most racist group were Democrats who put on the longest filibuster in history against the civil Rights bill and voted against it at a much higher percent.  Your statement about zero percent southern Republicans is frggin laughable because there was only one while there were 18 southern Democrats.  What ridiculous spin.  

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I can't believe people still use that 8th grade level argument that the Ds fought civil rights in the 60s. That's something I expect my uncle who never finished high school to say.

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20 minutes ago, timschochet said:

Is that why he accepted an award from Planned Parenthood? 

https://www.plannedparenthood.org/planned-parenthood-gulf-coast/mlk-acceptance-speech

Why do you persist on making #### up? 

In 1966 planned parenthoid was about contraception and women's health.   The battle for abortion was just gaining traction and was really not an issue until after his death.  So we could argue and speculate all day as there is no definitive answer as to where he would fall.   I would assume based on his religious values and beliefs he would be pro-lifers.  

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1 hour ago, Dedfin said:

I can't believe people still use that 8th grade level argument that the Ds fought civil rights in the 60s. That's something I expect my uncle who never finished high school to say.

Thank you for your usual uncalled for personal cheap shot and completd mischaracterization of the discussion.  You are a real piece of work.  The point was made in response to a ridiculous point by skoo suggesting Democrats have never been the party of racism, seemingly oblivious to the civil war and the fight for civil rights in the 60's.  

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45 minutes ago, jon_mx said:

In 1966 planned parenthoid was about contraception and women's health.   The battle for abortion was just gaining traction and was really not an issue until after his death.  So we could argue and speculate all day as there is no definitive answer as to where he would fall.   I would assume based on his religious values and beliefs he would be pro-lifers.  

Great point. I never knew that. Another liberal falsehood put to rest 

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