Da Guru
Fair & Balanced
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Anti-Semitism (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter timschochet
- Start date
Ditkaless Wonders
Footballguy
I have always thought that correctly naming a thing is actually more than half way to completely addressing that thing. Here, I believe you have correctly named or identified the thing.
The Commish
Footballguy
You should try reading what people actually say. If you ever do, you'll see the reply is more along the lines of "oh, NOW you care about these things?" Pointing out hypocrisy <> whataboutism.
timschochet
Footballguy
I have no doubt what you wrote is true, but I would still call that anti-Israeli sentiment and not anti-Semitic sentiment. I know this to be true because I have some Muslim friends, of Arab descent, who are virulently anti-Israeli (imo, irrationally so) yet are extremely friendly with individual Jews like myself, and this is true all over the Middle East as well.
Now that being said, certain anti-Israeli tropes can merge into anti-semitism. It’s a fine line between the two and not always clear. Tlaib may very well be anti-Semitic, or someone who has said things that are anti-Semitic; I don’t know her. But in this particular instance, she didn’t.
You've been asked to drop the trolling accusing many conservatives of this. We get it. You showed it calling them garbage humans. Stop it or find a new board.
Da Guru
Fair & Balanced
Tim..most everybody is friendly one on one and as individuals. I watched a show where they brought kids from Israel and Palestine together to play in an orchestra. They walked in filled with hate and apprehension ..and started playing together and realized..hey we are pretty much the same.
People from Iran, Russia, don`t hate American people..in fact it is totally opposite. Governments might be enemies but the people from all over are pretty much the same.
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SaintsInDome2006
Footballguy
KD didn't answer my point on this but this is the context of the conversation. It's complicated, and I can only guess it's confusing to him. Let's just say Palestinians are a tad angry with good reason. It annoys me that Talib places the dispute about Israel around the Holocaust when as we know it predated that. Still, it's not irrelevant to the situation, certainly. I also think that Trump's/Kushner's upcoming plan poses a greater threat of harm to Israelis than Talib's beliefs, which really for anyone who's been in these discussions, are pretty standard. The goal after all is peace, but Talib and Trump alike oppose the two state solution, although obviously with different visions of what that means.
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ren hoek
Footballguy
Is your argument that Jews in Israel should have more representation than Palestinians in Israel, because they are Jewish?
When you say "end to the State of Israel," I don't think that's necessarily true- it's just an end to racial/religious supremacy and denial of human rights to Palestinians.
sho nuff
Footballguy
Nothing I stated is false. You are proving it out here. You are unwilling to support your statements Why would you be reported if you could support your posts about her being anti Semitic?
knowledge dropper
Footballguy
I and many many others never supported Tiki Torches. How is that so difficult to grasp?
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The Commish
Footballguy
I don't know why you responded to my post to make this comment. I didn't say you supported tiki torches. I DID say it appears you aren't reading his words correctly because if you were, you wouldn't have asserted what you did in the post prior
I and many many others never supported Tiki Torches. How is that so difficult to grasp?
-fish-
Footballguy
timschochet
Footballguy
The majority of Palestinians she is referring to, the ones who live in Gaza and the West Bank, have never lived in the state of Israel. Many of their grandparents did, though it was not the State of Israel then.
-fish-
Footballguy
timschochet
Footballguy
The answer to your question is no, that is not my argument.
The Israeli constitution grants equal rights to Palestinians who live in the state of Israel. Unfortunately many Israeli governments, particulalry it’s current one, violates these rights consistently. I am opposed to that.
But I am also opposed to allowing millions of Palestinians who do not currently live in Israel to move in and change the status of the country. Israel is not a melting pot like the United States; it’s a tiny country and if it allowed these people in who are committed to its destruction, that is exactly what would occur.
-fish-
Footballguy
Are you ok with the fact that 700,000 Palestinians were forced to flee what is now Israel in 1948, which is why they don’t live there now?
timschochet
Footballguy
No. I’m not.
Without getting into details (thousand of pages have been written about this) let me say: many older Jews, including my relatives, believe that the fault lies totally on the Palestinians themselves. That is not so. Many Palestinians believe that the fault lies totally on the Zionists who forced them out. That is also not so. The truth lies somewhere in between, and it is murky and filled, as these events always are, with as much stupidity and confusion as deliberate decision making.
But that being said, what happened to the Palestinians was unjust. There is no way to right that injustice, no way to make up for it. It’s a tragic part of history. There is, however, a way to improve the lives of current Palestinians and give them a better future, and that is to provide them an independent state or states in Gaza and the West Bank, free of Israeli settlements, and with financial aid from Israel as a form of restitution.
![[scooter]](/data/avatars/m/22/22287.jpg?1659477690){kind=avatar}
[scooter]
Footballguy
Do you think the families of the 700,000 should be permitted to return to Israel and be given full voting and citizenship rights?
-fish-
Footballguy
So like Native American reservations? You get to be sovereign as long as you’re poor and subjugated?
Ditkaless Wonders
Footballguy
The entirety of the country needs to be declared a World Historical Treasure not subject to occupation by any people or State,. It needs be a heritage site open to visit by all but living or occupancy by none. Both sides win and both sides lose. The Palestinians need seek and be given a homeland elsewhere. A homeland with sufficient resources to fully compensate them as a people and individuals. The same with the Jews. I say we give the Jews Alabama and the Palestinians Utah. If those populations are uprooted I don't really see them having a world wide constituency to take up their cause. (I apologize to my Jewish friends that they will have to clean up a lot of meth sites before moving in but we all need to make sacrifices.)
Correct.
I think he's responding to being trolled here by other posters with stuff like "The issue here is the disgraceful, pathetic, rage-inducing duplicity of many conservatives who have co-opted anti-Semitism for their own Islamophobic political gain on the one hand while doing virtually everything they can to ignore of even embrace white nationalism on the other hand."
That type of trolling kills any chance at discussion and results in things like this where you're trying to have a real discussion but he's apparently responding to other things.
SaintsInDome2006
Footballguy
Ideally Dome of the Rock / Western Wall is like that.
On the historical and archaeological scale what has happened in Iraq & Syria has been tragic.
ren hoek
Footballguy
Could you explain what "destruction" means here? That's an odd term that needs some unpacking.
You support open borders and helping refugees from Syria, Latin America, etc., when it comes to the United States. Why not expand the same principle to Palestinians, who are subjected to military checkpoints, artificial food/water/electrical shortages, and being bombed regularly? Shouldn't the principle of refugee status and a path to citizenship be granted to them too, if Israel really was a democratic society and you truly did believe in those principles?
The two-state solution is dead Tim. There are two choices here: equality for all, or a racist apartheid state.
timschochet
Footballguy
timschochet
Footballguy
No. Ideally I would like to see a prosperous, independent Palestinian state, not poor and not subjugated.
The Commish
Footballguy
That sort of wishcasting and obfuscation is just as bad. I'll be clear here though, while I do throw out opportunities like that in the off chance it sparks a real discussion, I don't expect one to occur and I think that's exactly why he responds the way he does. It's just another flavor of trolling as far as I can see. This is just like the attempt to say "he just called me a racist" when the comment was clearly saying "you might not be a racist, but you're overlooking racism (or at minimum putting it at a very low priority) when you support X".
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Ditkaless Wonders
Footballguy
So you are with Ralph Waldo Emerson. Me too, at times. I say that I am not guilty of hypocrisy, but rather that I am comfortable with paradox, which is, of course, my hypocrisy.
timschochet
Footballguy
First off I reject the analogy of the United States. If the USA was the size of Vermont and surrounded by enemies on all sides, I certainly would not be for open immigration. The immigrants who come to this country want to be part of our system, they want the freedom and the economic and social opportunities. And we have plenty of room for them. Those are the key differences.
Second, why is the two state solution dead? Because the current leaders on both sides reject it? Sorry that’s not compelling to me. It remains the only solution that can bring about a peaceful resolution. I don’t agree that Israel is currently a racist Apartheid state. It may very well become that, it’s making moves in that direction, and if it ever happens that will be the end of my support for Israel, sadly. I’m not at that point yet (closer than I’ve ever been in my life though.) But your solution (and Ms Tlaib’s) is completely unworkable.
timschochet
Footballguy
I’m certainly guilty of hypocrisy, and double standards, and paradox, all the time.
But, given that the Israeli- Palestinian situation is somewhat unique in history, I don’t think I am guilty in this instance.
SaintsInDome2006
Footballguy
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Ditkaless Wonders
Footballguy
Perhaps it is unique. A people being dispossessed of their land does not strike me as unique, but as a commonality of human history. Religious claims, sincere and otherwise being involved, again, not unique as I see it, but perhaps. All of this generated by the last remnants of euro-expansion and colonialism, petro interest, and attempted genocide of the people already in a diaspora, that is unique. That the Jews were hunted even in exile of thousands of years, persecuted for religion and culture, purged once off of their land (or the land) and well removed, that is something I do not believe I could find a parallel for. Still when boiled down from the Palestinian view, not so unique while from the Jewish view, certainly unique. therein lies the seeds of discord I believe will always be unresolvable. I hope note. A hundred Sadats, a hundred Begins, a hundred Golda Meiers could not solve this. Still, history is full of the unexpected, of swings unanticipated. My doubts do not preclude solutions, they simply speak to me.
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timschochet
Footballguy
It’s not the dispossession that makes it unique, it’s what happened afterwards. The history of the Palestinian people from 1949 to now is what is highly unusual and has no real analogy.
SaintsInDome2006
Footballguy
Eh, Poland. East Prussia/Kaliningrad. Tibet. Crimea. There may be others. It's just how people view things.
timschochet
Footballguy
Ditkaless Wonders
Footballguy
I will have to take your word for this as I am not student of history. I do seem to recall some American Indian Tribes early on trying to regain their lands and them being suppressed again and given different legal status than the occupiers, I remember the reading of the ghost dances. I understand the aboriginal peoples of Australia had some similar movements and that they for a long time had different legal status in their homeland. I have always felt that the situation was unique in Israel, but I have a hard time putting my finger on precisely what makes it unique. You will forgive me for searching for reasons. I guess I have always fallen back on the unique hate evidenced by pursuing genocide even across time and countries as the diaspora dispersed. That ongoing hunting seems the ne unique factor I can identify, though I am sure there could be others as well.
SaintsInDome2006
Footballguy
I think the issue is dispossession from land for ethno-religious-ideological reasons? Post WW2 saw massive shifting of populations. (eta - Stalin outright stole Crimea from the Tartars and China has aggressively repopulated and depopulated Tibet). I'm not diving into this debate, at least not here, but I do think it's interesting how occupations are not all the same apparently.
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Ditkaless Wonders
Footballguy
Imagine the next great migrations caused by say, warming or cooling of the planet. Populations will move, will compete for space and resources. I suppose there are implications here for that future, whether distant or near.
SaintsInDome2006
Footballguy
There are, and still war is a factor. Right now Assad is carving Turkimen out of ancient Aleppo. It would be nice if in this post-WW2 period our institutions were developed and reliable enough to manage our own failures. These migrations you speak of are a very possibility. Human history is littered with them and they lead to conflict. What will we do? Nationalism is not the answer.
Ditkaless Wonders
Footballguy
What if the Palestinians had dragons? Wait, wrong thread. Never mind.
[scooter]
Footballguy
Why do you consider Tobias' statement to be "trolling"? Is it just because he used the phrase "many conservatives"?
(If so: if he had named several prominent conservatives and then listed examples of their duplicity, would you have still considered the above statement to be "trolling"? Why?)
If we're going to redefine "trolling" as "using a sweeping generalization", then it's going to put a lot of prominent_posters out of business.
For whatever it’s worth (not that anybody asked me), I think accusations of trolling are leveled far too often.
Tobias’s post was excessively inflammatory in rhetoric and possibly in substance, but I think he believed every word of it. He wasn’t trolling. He wasn’t insincerely claiming something he didn’t believe simply to waste another person’s time or to get a rise out of someone. He was stating his heartfelt opinion using gratuitously incendiary language.
That may justify a suspension for not being excellent, but it’s starkly different from trolling.
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knowledge dropper
Footballguy
I don’t see his style as trolling. It’s more condescending and unexcellent. The kind of thing you can’t say in the real world without having to worry about getting into a fight.
Ditkaless Wonders
Footballguy
I am guessing it has been 40 years or more since I got into a physical altercation over a difference of opinion. But perhaps by fight you were not suggesting a physical altercation. did I jump to a conclusion and miss the designated landing spot.
knowledge dropper
Footballguy
I haven’t either but if someone gets in my face calling me racist, liar, Nazi, misogynistic, pro-rape, etc. that the left get away with here I’m not so sure I could hold back.
timschochet
Footballguy
Assuming this is true, isn't that one of the advantages of having discussions in this forum? I write a lot of things here that I would be uncomfortable saying in the real world because I don't want to get into confrontations.
TylerDurden
Footballguy
ShamrockPride
Footballguy
In the grand words of James Earl Jones after Ray first knocks on his door in Field of Dreams....
"Who the hell are you?"
timschochet
Footballguy
SaintsInDome2006
Footballguy
Maybe so, this may have been discussed in the Israel-Palestine thread. Just a follow up - Did you watch the video? I didn't realize the Reuters report actually does not have the full quote, which surprises me. She actually at the start of that discussion mentions the moment of silence that is held throughout Israel, Israeli Palestinians (I suspect most) like all Israelis I believe stand for 2 minutes of silence IIRC in remembrance of the Holocaust. I actually did post a video of that in the Israel-Palestine thread. After watching that interview in the link you provided I'm absolutely certain that's the 'quiet feeling' she is referring to there.knowledge dropper said:
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sho nuff
Footballguy
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