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2020: The Race For the White House - The Good Place (11 Viewers)
- Thread starter Sinn Fein
- Start date
Herb
Footballguy
I didnt realize Buttigieg is gay (I have not followed him at all). I think we are at the point that most people wouldn't have a problem with a gay President. That said, in this particular election, I'm not feeling it. The tensions in this country around bigotry are so fraught at the moment that having a gay candidate in the general is just a massive problem waiting to happen. Can you imagine Trump talking about this guy? And his supporters eating it up and the crazy backlash against that, and then the even crazier backlash against the backlash? You think the racist/nazi stuff is out of hand, wait until you throw homosexuality into the mix. No thanks. This is already going to be an epic, divisive bloodbath.
That said, I am going to look into this guy because what little I know about him seems intriguing.
That said, I am going to look into this guy because what little I know about him seems intriguing.
IC FBGCav
Footballguy
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IC FBGCav
Footballguy
Call me dumb but how does this actually benefit students? I think we need a massive investment in education including teacher pay but teacher pay alone sounds like trying to buy votes.
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I’m not sure I agree. I think there would be immediately recognizable value to a lot of people in exposing those people for what they are. That’s a battle-already won for civilized people-I’d love to have. I don’t see it as a negative. It also further defines the odious nature of 35% of our population (if it was exploited as an issue). We need to stop deferring to that kind of thinking. Lets starkly outline what these people are about.
Herb
Footballguy
Haven't we already done that? The result has been a tsunami of broadly inflammatory accusations that serve little purpose other than to rile up conservatives that feel wrongly accused of the same sort of behavior that their leader engages in. For what? So Dems/ Libs can feel some sort of moral self-satisfaction?
I've seen this movie and it sucks. I have no appetite for a more obnoxious sequel.
If they’re wrongly accused then “gay” as an issue won’t be an issue. And nothing to do with “moral self satisfaction”, everything to do with standards. Why should we sacrifice the idea of “gay” as acceptable to appease those who think otherwise? Screw that, that’s just submitting to antiquated thinking.
IC FBGCav
Footballguy
![[scooter]](/data/avatars/m/22/22287.jpg?1659477690){kind=avatar}
[scooter]
Footballguy
The phrase "Crooked Hillary" existed long before Sanders announced his candidacy. Here is an example from 2013 from what appears to be an ardent Sarah Palin supporter.
Also, Cambridge Analytica came up with the idea of using "Crooked Hillary" for the Trump campaign.
IC FBGCav
Footballguy
Really? This just makes no sense to me plus being better educated doesn't lead to better teacher. I know we all strive for people with PhD's teaching in elementary schools but I don't think it would be the best plan.
IC FBGCav
Footballguy
Herb
Footballguy
I know what you're saying and in any other election cycle against any opponent other than Trump we would be in complete agreement. I have no desire to lower the standards or go backwards from a civil rights or social norms standpoint. But these are strange times.
IC FBGCav
Footballguy
Well, I can wait for the new crop of teachers making 10k more a year to have a massive impact. I also am waiting for those tax cuts to trickle down.
IC FBGCav
Footballguy
ren hoek
Footballguy
I watched an interview of him the other day. The way he talked about the issues is very thoughtful, candid. But his approach to Venezuela sounded like boilerplate American exceptionalism.
Still, I like how well he can articulate and distill his positions. He doesn't appear to be cut from the same cloth as the others.
caustic
Footballguy
Not exactly a fan of the Washington Free Beacon, but I gotta hand it to them for their “2020 candidates as Michael Scott” video:
https://twitter.com/willdammann/status/1109087098697588738?s=21
https://twitter.com/willdammann/status/1109087098697588738?s=21
Dinsy Ejotuz
Footballguy
timschochet
Footballguy
I’ve been listening to stuff about the electoral college situation and the news isn’t that great for Democrats. Even if Trump loses Michigan, loses Wisconsin, loses Iowa this time around, so long as he holds Florida, North Carolina and Pennsylvania he’s at 273.
The governor and senate elections in Florida of 2018 suggest to me that Trump WILL win there. I would expect North Carolina as well. Which means this election all comes down to Pennsylvania.
Which means Joe Biden may be the only candidate with a real shot at beating Donald Trump.
The governor and senate elections in Florida of 2018 suggest to me that Trump WILL win there. I would expect North Carolina as well. Which means this election all comes down to Pennsylvania.
Which means Joe Biden may be the only candidate with a real shot at beating Donald Trump.
timschochet
Footballguy
What’s bizarre is that Trump will lose the popular vote by an even larger margin than last time. Texas and Georgia will be much closer, though both ultimately still red.
But it sure looks like if Trump can hold on to Pennsylvania he wins a narrow victory.
But it sure looks like if Trump can hold on to Pennsylvania he wins a narrow victory.
timschochet
Footballguy
I was, and it was true. Of the candidates who ran for President on the Democratic side, Hillary was the only one who could have beaten Trump.
roadkill1292
Footballguy
GOP Congressional candidates got trounced by an aggregate 474,000 votes in Pennsylvania in the midterms.timschochet said:
But your overall assessment is generally correct. Dems may win the national popular vote by twice the margin that Hilldog did and Donald could still sneak through with the EC, subjecting us to four more years of bragging about his second "landslide victory." Nice system we got here.
timschochet
Footballguy
I’m aware. It’s a hopeful sign. But two points:
1. There wasn’t a statewide race so we can’t predict the outcome like we can in Florida.
2. More importantly: those Democrats were very centrist. I know the guy in western Pennsylvania who won barely even mentioned Trump and promoted very few progressive ideas. A progressive candidate for President is unlikely to win in Pennsylvania.
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Nate SilverVerified account @NateSilver538 20m20 minutes ago
Jay Inslee has also qualified for the debates based on this morning's Fox News poll. That makes 12 qualified candidates: Biden, Sanders, Harris, O'Rourke, Booker, Klobuchar, Castro, Gillibrand, Buttigieg, Inslee (polls), Yang (fundraising).
Jay Inslee has also qualified for the debates based on this morning's Fox News poll. That makes 12 qualified candidates: Biden, Sanders, Harris, O'Rourke, Booker, Klobuchar, Castro, Gillibrand, Buttigieg, Inslee (polls), Yang (fundraising).
timschochet
Footballguy
It will be an uphill struggle. We have to figure that Florida and North Carolina are likely losses.
Things might change, but we can’t count on it. What it comes down to is, and you’re not going to like it: I know you want a progressive candidate and given the base, you might very well get that. But this is not the year for it. If we go in that direction, I think we’re gonna lose.
I know that you and every other progressive here are going to disagree with me. That’s fine. The establishment is corrupt and for your purposes, they suck. But it’s them or Trump.
NCCommish
Footballguy
Please, the most establishment politician ever lost here last time. People stayed home. Excite the kids and the minority voters or don't bother.
roadkill1292
Footballguy
Your state continues to have the nation's best, most organized voter suppression tactics and the Republican dominated state legislature has even less of a collective conscience than their counterparts around the nation. Still, as time marches on, Republicans won't be able to win the state all the time without coming back towards the center, maybe a lot. NC can look one state north to see what can happen when a rural red state's urban centers continue to grow and gain power. I don't know if '20 is the year, though. Not yet.
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NCCommish
Footballguy
Gerrymandering has nothing to do with the presidential race or the Senate race. Just like we have a Democratic governor we can win this state for the right blue candidate.
roadkill1292
Footballguy
Nothing would please me more, electing a Dem governor was no doubt something that has scared Republican strategists for '20. And I think Tim is wrong about Florida, too. Despite the constant reinforcements of old voters, 1.2 million newly enfranchised voters (plus another 300,000 Puerto Ricans) can change things in a big hurry -- if the Dems can get them to the polls. Plus Florida (NC, too) is no less affected by the growing numbers of youth voters, who swing almost 30 points away from Donald Trump.
Still, the coming election remains a nail biter and the nightmare scenario -- an even bigger popular vote margin while The Don squeezes in with a ridiculously tiny EC majority -- looms large.
roadkill1292
Footballguy
Oh, and what I was talking about was NC's propensity to suppress the Democratic vote by any means hook or crook.
timschochet
Footballguy
Exciting the kids isn’t going to get us Pennsylvania. If you win California by an even bigger margin, so what?
The system is rigged. If you want to unrig it I’m all for that. But we’re not going to do it by 2020 and we need to face that reality.
timschochet
Footballguy
Pennsylvania goes Democrat when white, blue collar workers vote Democrat. They want jobs, healthcare, infrastructure. They care about climate change but they don’t want to go too crazy over it. They don’t give a #### about Russia. They don’t like socialism. Someone like AOC, Bernie Sanders, or Liz Warren is going to turn them right off.
Last time around they voted against Hillary, not because of her politics, not because she was Establishment, but because they didn’t like her and didn’t trust her. They liked what Trump said about jobs and decided to give him a chance. Now they’re sick of hearing about Trump so there is an opportunity to win them back. But only with a centrist.
Last time around they voted against Hillary, not because of her politics, not because she was Establishment, but because they didn’t like her and didn’t trust her. They liked what Trump said about jobs and decided to give him a chance. Now they’re sick of hearing about Trump so there is an opportunity to win them back. But only with a centrist.
NCCommish
Footballguy
You keep saying this like centrists haven't had their chance to prove it. They have, they lost and they lost over a number of cycles not just the last one. Just stop already.
timschochet
Footballguy
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NCCommish
Footballguy
And Obama sold himself as a progressive to win his first term. Then he faced folders full of women second term.
Just stop.
timschochet
Footballguy
We just disagree.
I will support whomever the Democrats put up. Will you do the same?
Dinsy Ejotuz
Footballguy
No idea how far he can go, but if I could buy stock in Pete Buttigieg I'd do it. For someone to come out of total obscurity and push into the 2nd tier of candidates so quickly is pretty impressive.
adonis
Footballguy
It's a lot easier to do what he's done so far, than to take the next step and go to 1st tier.
In my opinion, he'll do that if he can get into debates and perform well, especially discussing foreign policy.
Dinsy Ejotuz
Footballguy
How many general elections have the liberal wing of the Democratic Party won in the last 70 years? Maybe Johnson in 1964 if you ignore the whole Vietnam thing?
I mean, who was the last one to even make it out of a primary?
The worm has turned for sure, but I'm not sure how you can point to recent history as an argument in favor of the more liberal wing of the party when it comes to elections.
I have gone from "He has no chance!" to telling everyone I know to take a listen to what he has to say. Most impressive debut on a national stage, imo.
I am sure there are things I am missing - but right now, I am buying what he is selling.
NCCommish
Footballguy
Centrist have been running the show since the Clinton years in the Democratic Party neoliberalism is what everybody was running with they really weren't any progressives running in any of those elections. Neoliberalism gave us the trumps of the world it's an abject Failure Its failure can be traced to the failure of systems all over Europe that followed it and in America why did workers turn on the Democratic party because the Democratic party turned on workers a long time ago. So why don't we give somebody else a chance since the establishment neoliberals lost all the state house has lost the Congress lost the Senate lost the presidency just generally lost. So stop pointing to them as some kind of success because they aren't and they haven't been for a long long time and in fact their policies have led us to where we are today Trump isn't the disease he's a symptom.
The only thing Barack Obama was good at was getting Barack Obama elected much losing everywhere else.
adonis
Footballguy
Lots of people rode his coattails during the general elections.
And laying the blame at his feet for that is partially valid, but the opposition was incredible.
NCCommish
Footballguy
Depends on who they put up. This idea that I have no responsibility for what the person I vote for does no longer works for me. There are consequences to who I give power. I gave Obama power what did he do with it? He had American citizens assassinated, he authorized war crimes in the form of his drone program and he sold out the principles that I have because he was trying to make his deal with the people I didn't elect and elected him to fight. And whom he said he'd fight.
NCCommish
Footballguy
Basically the Centrist keep telling voters that the Republicans are right they just need to be nicer about it so why shouldn't the voters elect Republicans.
timschochet
Footballguy
I do admire your perspicacity.
But for the sake of seeing Trump lose (my main, overriding objective) I sincerely hope there aren’t too many people who follow your lead.
roadkill1292
Footballguy
One last point about Florida: if Republicans were really confident about winning there in '20, then the state legislature might not be so anxious to construct the bill they are currently working on, which would require the recently re-enfranchised population to reimburse government for their court related costs before being registered to vote. Expect that one to be challenged in court, and maybe this is just another example of mainstream Republican voter suppression, but they wouldn't be doing it at all if they weren't worried about those 1.2 million new voters.
I know I'm repeating myself but making it harder to vote is a long term losing proposition for the Pubbies. More and more independent voters can clearly see the unfairness and partisanship of it.
I know I'm repeating myself but making it harder to vote is a long term losing proposition for the Pubbies. More and more independent voters can clearly see the unfairness and partisanship of it.
NCCommish
Footballguy
Also keep in mind Andrew Gillum is going to spend at least 3 million dollars in a get the vote out operation in Florida specifically targeted at the presidential election.
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