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SaintsInDome2006

Taysom Hill - NO Saints - QB (but also other things...)

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Old thread here, I just thought the title was a bit misleading so leaving that one be.

This may be useful for future dynasty purposes, in future years he could very well have a role as a starter in the league, in or out of NO, but what I and I'm guessing others think is interesting is his usage so far this year, through 9 games:

  • 35 snaps at QB, all over HOFer Drew Brees.
  • 26 at WR (10 in slot).
  • 45 at TE.
  • 7 at RB/FB.
  • 113 on offense overall, 202 on special teams.

I'm curious if anyone thinks his multi-role usage could become a factor in the NFL. In 2 games this year I've seen opposing coaches bring in the backup QB to run some variation of RPO vs the Saints. Is this catching on, could it more so next season lessen the value of QBs generally? I don't think so this season, but maybe next year after an offseason of study by the oft-copycat NFL.

Examining Sean Payton's creative use of Taysom Hil

Edited by SaintsInDome2006

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7 hours ago, SaintsInDome2006 said:

I'm curious if anyone thinks his multi-role usage could become a factor in the NFL. In 2 games this year I've seen opposing coaches bring in the backup QB to run some variation of RPO vs the Saints. Is this catching on, could it more so next season lessen the value of QBs generally? I don't think so this season, but maybe next year after an offseason of study by the oft-copycat NFL.

What's interesting to me is that outside of Saints fandom -- and especially on this board -- almost everyone thinks Taysom Hill's use in the Saints' offense is a misguided and abject failure. Saints fans who watch the games typically disagree ... but we have to admit that Payton's hit rate on the Hill plays is not 100%. Still, the "opponents' prep time" and "mind games/keeping the defense off balance" arguments have some merit, IMHO ... but the advantages of using Hill will likely never be anything you can readily commit to metrics.

In general, though, NFL fans probably have good reason to be skeptical that Taysom Hill is going to change offense very much. We've seen the Wildcat come and go. We've seen the Colin Kaepernick & RGIII-style of option offense come and go. NFL defenses seem to be very good at adjusting.

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8 minutes ago, Doug B said:

What's interesting to me is that outside of Saints fandom -- and especially on this board -- almost everyone thinks Taysom Hill's use in the Saints' offense is a misguided and abject failure. Saints fans who watch the games typically disagree ... but we have to admit that Payton's hit rate on the Hill plays is not 100%. Still, the "opponents' prep time" and "mind games/keeping the defense off balance" arguments have some merit, IMHO ... but the advantages of using Hill will likely never be anything you can readily commit to metrics.

In general, though, NFL fans probably have good reason to be skeptical that Taysom Hill is going to change offense very much. We've seen the Wildcat come and go. We've seen the Colin Kaepernick & RGIII-style of option offense come and go. NFL defenses seem to be very good at adjusting.

The counter is the alleged gains from opposing D's prep time is that the Saints are probably spending 10% of their practice time on a fairly meh yet overly complex set of plays. With all the skill they have I'd be giving my core players and routine plays more attention. People will counter counter argue that "They are the best team in the leauge so they know what they are doing" and I'd remind them not to mistake a positive outcome for a smart decision. :)

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1 hour ago, tombonneau said:

The counter is the alleged gains from opposing D's prep time is that the Saints are probably spending 10% of their practice time on a fairly meh yet overly complex set of plays. With all the skill they have I'd be giving my core players and routine plays more attention. People will counter counter argue that "They are the best team in the leauge so they know what they are doing" and I'd remind them not to mistake a positive outcome for a smart decision. :)

If they can get other teams to not be laser focused on stopping Brees, that's probably a benefit.

If the saints can be slightly better prepared if Brees got injured that's probably good too - although it seems really unlikely that a Breesless saints do much.

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1 hour ago, -OZ- said:

If they can get other teams to not be laser focused on stopping Brees, that's probably a benefit.

If the saints can be slightly better prepared if Brees got injured that's probably good too - although it seems really unlikely that a Breesless saints do much.

I'm sure opposing defenses love when the Saints take Brees off the field.

Maybe I'm wrong about this - a Saints fan could answer better - but if Brees went down I would think Bridgewater would take over not Hill (who can't throw all that well).

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2 hours ago, Dr. Octopus said:

Maybe I'm wrong about this - a Saints fan could answer better - but if Brees went down I would think Bridgewater would take over not Hill (who can't throw all that well).

This is true, but the Hill packages would likely remain the same.

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5 hours ago, Doug B said:

What's interesting to me is that outside of Saints fandom -- and especially on this board -- almost everyone thinks Taysom Hill's use in the Saints' offense is a misguided and abject failure. Saints fans who watch the games typically disagree ... but we have to admit that Payton's hit rate on the Hill plays is not 100%. Still, the "opponents' prep time" and "mind games/keeping the defense off balance" arguments have some merit, IMHO ... but the advantages of using Hill will likely never be anything you can readily commit to metrics.

In general, though, NFL fans probably have good reason to be skeptical that Taysom Hill is going to change offense very much. We've seen the Wildcat come and go. We've seen the Colin Kaepernick & RGIII-style of option offense come and go. NFL defenses seem to be very good at adjusting.

About the wildcat - the problem there was that eventually defense figured out they could crowd the LOS. The man advantage that was gained was quickly lost. I don't think that is true with Hill. He can pass and he can pass well. We know he has his problems, like standard UDFA QB problems, however when faced with defenses crowding the line life throwing the ball gets a lot easier with WRs looking at beating single coverage from safeties only.

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1 hour ago, SaintsInDome2006 said:

[Taysom Hill] can pass and he can pass well. We know he has his problems, like standard UDFA QB problems, however when faced with defenses crowding the line life throwing the ball gets a lot easier with WRs looking at beating single coverage from safeties only.

Very few outside of Saints fandom will buy this. I will say this much:

If somehow Taysom Hill had to be the starting QB for an extended period ... I believe Sean Payton could adjust the offense and call the games in such a way that Hill would succeed often enough and the team could move the ball and score around league average or a little better. The offense takes a substantial statistical hit, yes ... but I don't think the Saints team as constructed now drops down to a 3-13-type team with Taysom Hill under center.

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4 hours ago, SaintsInDome2006 said:

This is true, but the Hill packages would likely remain the same.

I assumed they'd increase. But could be wrong.

2 hours ago, Doug B said:

Very few outside of Saints fandom will buy this. I will say this much:

If somehow Taysom Hill had to be the starting QB for an extended period ... I believe Sean Payton could adjust the offense and call the games in such a way that Hill would succeed often enough and the team could move the ball and score around league average or a little better. The offense takes a substantial statistical hit, yes ... but I don't think the Saints team as constructed now drops down to a 3-13-type team with Taysom Hill under center.

Right, just not close to the best team in the league.

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4 hours ago, SaintsInDome2006 said:

Technically, Brees does not go off the field. He splits out at wide at WR.

Which I always find strange. Is the reason that in the huddle the opposing team does not know who the QB will be until they break the huddle? Looks funny when Brady or Brees just stand there spread out wide.

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16 minutes ago, ex-ghost said:

Which I always find strange. Is the reason that in the huddle the opposing team does not know who the QB will be until they break the huddle? Looks funny when Brady or Brees just stand there spread out wide.

I think so. They prepare for Brees, that’s how they structure their base defense and personnel. And the Saints send Brees all the way out to almost the sideline, and sure enough there goes a CB, one game, maybe the Browns in week 2, CLE put 2 CBs on Brees then had to call a timeout. It was ridiculous. I don’t see defenses shutting in personnel when Hill comes in because more than likely Brees will be under Center anyway, but then he’s not. I think one key is that the Saints are leveraging Hill’s snaps at QB for third and fourth and short and inside the 10. 

Edited by SaintsInDome2006
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I do hope Taysom Hill executes the hand-off one day. The last few weeks, opponents have adjusted to Hill keeping the ball in short yardage while Kamara runs straight ahead through open green. Hard to imagine defenses can keep selling out to stop Hill and still recover enough to get a hand on Kamara.

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1 hour ago, Doug B said:

I do hope Taysom Hill executes the hand-off one day. The last few weeks, opponents have adjusted to Hill keeping the ball in short yardage while Kamara runs straight ahead through open green. Hard to imagine defenses can keep selling out to stop Hill and still recover enough to get a hand on Kamara.

Maybe they’re saving it for the playoffs. Make taysom keep every time all regular season, everyone thinks he’s gonna keep it every time. Then bam, playoffs and Kamara takes it to the house. 

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On 11/16/2018 at 10:32 AM, Doug B said:

I do hope Taysom Hill executes the hand-off one day. The last few weeks, opponents have adjusted to Hill keeping the ball in short yardage while Kamara runs straight ahead through open green. Hard to imagine defenses can keep selling out to stop Hill and still recover enough to get a hand on Kamara.

Exactly, he’s missed this opportunity a couple times at least, I’d have to think they are working on this wrinkle on film. 

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Is this guy going to challenge brees for starts this year?

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3 minutes ago, BassNBrew said:

Is this guy going to challenge brees for starts this year?

no

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Quote

Taysom Hill completed 11-of-15 passes for 136 yards and two touchdowns in the Saints' second preseason game.

It was the most consistent passing performance we've seen from the gadget quarterback, and he, of course, was a threat on the ground, too. Hill is expected to mix in with the first-team offense in 2019, especially in the red zone, even if it means taking Drew Brees out from under center.

Aug 18, 2019, 7:34 PM ET

 

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Quote

Jeff Duncan @JeffDuncan_

Taysom Hill said the TD pass he threw to Austin Carr to start the Saints' comeback was not his first option. He went through a detailed explanation of his progression of reads from the pocket. Such plays are a clear sign of his development as an NFL passer.

 

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I'm really intrigued by this guy.  a Flex player that you can put at (fantasy) QB and has the ability to throw, catch, and run TDs?  Maybe even some wildcat packages.  

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I thought it a huge mistake for the Packers to allow Hill to get out of Green Bay.  Still do.  I'd like to see what he could do with and opportunity here, but I understand why Bridgewater, with his experience, will be given every chance to shine first.

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Just now, Ditkaless Wonders said:

I thought it a huge mistake for the Packers to allow Hill to get out of Green Bay.  Still do.  I'd like to see what he could do with and opportunity here, but I understand why Bridgewater, with his experience, will be given every chance to shine first.

agree but Hill would be 32 by the time Rodgers retires lol. However I'd feel better about our backup

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38 minutes ago, joffer said:

I'm really intrigued by this guy.  a Flex player that you can put at (fantasy) QB and has the ability to throw, catch, and run TDs?  Maybe even some wildcat packages.  

Any chance these Hill-gadget packages get reduced now that he's the primary back-up/likely to start by November QB?

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I don't follow Hill enough, but is he too one-dimensional as a "flex" QB to ever be given a chance to be the full-time QB? I assume Bridgewater will get the starting job for the next 6 weeks, but if he struggles, is that a consideration?

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2 hours ago, Dizzy said:

Any chance these Hill-gadget packages get reduced now that he's the primary back-up/likely to start by November QB?

Yes, very much so.

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1 hour ago, cubd8 said:

I don't follow Hill enough, but is he too one-dimensional as a "flex" QB to ever be given a chance to be the full-time QB? I assume Bridgewater will get the starting job for the next 6 weeks, but if he struggles, is that a consideration?

Payton gave Hill an extended trial against 2s and 3s this preseason. Hill did very well ... at least an A-minus against that level of competition. Hill can pass ... and I don't mean just having a big arm, either. While he's not as accurate as an all-timer like Brees, Taysom Hill does read defenses and go through progressions and extend plays with his legs. He's not just play-acting as a QB with insufficient tools.

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Coach Sean Payton refused to name Teddy Bridgewater as the Saints' Week 3 starter against the Seahawks.

When asked if he has to limit Taysom Hill's usage in other positions now that he's the No. 2 quarterback, Payton responded, "You're assuming he's the No. 2." Payton said he won't make an announcement to the media as to who will start in Seattle. The assumption has been Bridgewater will get the nod, but his leash likely isn't very long after his dreadful showing against the Rams in relief of Brees. Hill also outplayed Bridgewater in the preseason and is overall a far superior playmaker.

RELATED: 

Taysom Hill

SOURCE: Omar Ruiz on Twitter

Sep 18, 2019, 12:38 PM ET

https://www.rotoworld.com/football/nfl/player/10225/teddy-bridgewater

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On 9/16/2019 at 4:07 PM, Doug B said:

Payton gave Hill an extended trial against 2s and 3s this preseason. Hill did very well ... at least an A-minus against that level of competition. Hill can pass ... and I don't mean just having a big arm, either. While he's not as accurate as an all-timer like Brees, Taysom Hill does read defenses and go through progressions and extend plays with his legs. He's not just play-acting as a QB with insufficient tools.

Then why did they sign Bridgewater? Based on what I've heard from others going back to last year, that's exactly what Hill is doing. But I don't follow the Saints super closely so I haven't drawn any definitive conclusions.

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Brought this up in another thread: what's the process by which fantasy players get dual eligibility? Hill lined up at TE almost the entire second half last week. There have been position changes before, Marques Colston was WR/TE, Ty Montgomery got RB/WR that year he filled in at back for Green Bay. Already this season in my league, Ty Long got PK eligibility at some point and is rosterable, when all other punters are outside the player pool.

If he gets QB/TE eligible after playing TE for a couple of weeks and then takes over as playcaller at some point in the season, it could blow up a fantasy team.

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1 minute ago, Walking Boot said:

Brought this up in another thread: what's the process by which fantasy players get dual eligibility? Hill lined up at TE almost the entire second half last week. There have been position changes before, Marques Colston was WR/TE, Ty Montgomery got RB/WR that year he filled in at back for Green Bay. Already this season in my league, Ty Long got PK eligibility at some point and is rosterable, when all other punters are outside the player pool.

If he gets QB/TE eligible after playing TE for a couple of weeks and then takes over as playcaller at some point in the season, it could blow up a fantasy team.

Apropos of something but not everything: Yahoo!, I believe, put an end to dual eligibility. He's a QB.

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1 hour ago, Apple Juice said:
On 9/16/2019 at 3:07 PM, Doug B said:

Payton gave Hill an extended trial against 2s and 3s this preseason. Hill did very well ... at least an A-minus against that level of competition. Hill can pass ... and I don't mean just having a big arm, either. While he's not as accurate as an all-timer like Brees, Taysom Hill does read defenses and go through progressions and extend plays with his legs. He's not just play-acting as a QB with insufficient tools.

Then why did they sign Bridgewater?

Experience as a starter. Plus Payton likes having Hill as a Swiss Army knife -- a role he can't play as the named #2 QB.

EDIT: Plus, the Bridgewater signing was before this preseason. Payton didn't know for sure how Hill would show out as a passer. Hill was used under center very sparingly during the 2018 preseason.

EDIT2: My memory is shot -- Hill played quite a bit of QB in the 2018 preseason, too. Statistically decent then, too, except for one game where he threw 2 picks.

Edited by Doug B

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9 minutes ago, rockaction said:

Apropos of something but not everything: Yahoo!, I believe, put an end to dual eligibility. He's a QB.

I don't have a yahoo league, but a skim of their player pages has injured KC backup John Lovett as QB/TE eligible, and NE's Jakob Johnson as RB/TE eligible. Don't see any real fantasy relevant players with dual designations for offense. IDP of course differs.

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1 minute ago, Walking Boot said:

I don't have a yahoo league, but a skim of their player pages has injured KC backup John Lovett as QB/TE eligible, and NE's Jakob Johnson as RB/TE eligible. Don't see any real fantasy relevant players with dual designations for offense. IDP of course differs.

Ah, okay. They had specifically noted that something like Jaylen Samuels wouldn't happen again this year in some sort of note to the commissioner or something like that. So they're still letting it go, huh?

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Here's some footage of Hill running the offense at the Chargers, Week 2 of 2019 preseason.

It's easy to find these highlight videos on Youtube -- just search the team names and "2018 preseason" or "2019 preseason". Here were the Saints' opponents the last two preseasons. Hill played QB against all these opponents -- always against backups and camp guys, of course.

2019 - Vikings, @ Chargers, @ Jets, Dolphins

2018 - @ Jaguars, Cardinals, @ Chargers, Rams

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If Josh Allen is a pretty valuable fantasy QB in Buffalo, am I *way* off base to say that Taysom Hill should be at least as valuable if he were the starting QB in New Orleans?  Josh Allen doesn't have Michael Thomas to throw to, nor Alvin Kamara to hand the ball to.  Payton clearly has a crush on the guy, and is an innovative enough offensive mind to work the offense around his talents.

I just don't see a ton of upside with Bridgewater... while with Hill there could be?  Talk me down off my crazy-ledge here.

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4 minutes ago, pinequick said:

If Josh Allen is a pretty valuable fantasy QB in Buffalo, am I *way* off base to say that Taysom Hill should be at least as valuable if he were the starting QB in New Orleans?  Josh Allen doesn't have Michael Thomas to throw to, nor Alvin Kamara to hand the ball to.  Payton clearly has a crush on the guy, and is an innovative enough offensive mind to work the offense around his talents.

I just don't see a ton of upside with Bridgewater... while with Hill there could be?  Talk me down off my crazy-ledge here.

After picking him up and paying the roster capital, I fully agree with you!

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6 hours ago, Twenty-Four Eighty-Four said:

Coach Sean Payton refused to name Teddy Bridgewater as the Saints' Week 3 starter against the Seahawks.

My, my, my.

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1 minute ago, SaintsInDome2006 said:

My, my, my.

Would you go get him for free off the waiver wire if you could?  Payton just got an extension... do you think that he has Hill penciled in as his starter at some point (i.e. maybe next season)?

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Just now, pinequick said:

Would you go get him for free off the waiver wire if you could?  Payton just got an extension... do you think that he has Hill penciled in as his starter at some point (i.e. maybe next season)?

I'm so jaded. The preparation between defending Bridgewater vs Hill is huge, my guess is Payton is possibly playing games here.

But Payton said that he would let the press know before Friday.

I'm not sure what to tell you. Saints fans have seen Hill do great things and they're clamoring for him here. He could legitimately rip off a 50 yard run and he has a great deep arm. Question is if he can release the ball quickly and be accurate. And it's a great offensive line.

 

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1 hour ago, pinequick said:

Talk me down off my crazy-ledge here.

I would, but ... I'm holding on to you for balance up here :oldunsure:


EDIT:

Quote

If Josh Allen is a pretty valuable fantasy QB in Buffalo, am I *way* off base to say that Taysom Hill should be at least as valuable if he were the starting QB in New Orleans?

The obvious difference is that Allen has been preparing as the starting QB of the Bills for two offseasons now, plus the 2018-19 pre- and regular seasons to date. No, Allen is not yet a grizzled vet but he's got significant NFL development time ahead of Hill.

That said ... it's hard for me to put a mental limit on what Hill can accomplish given reps and opportunity. The best I can say is "He won't be Brees". Aside from that though?

Edited by Doug B
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11 minutes ago, SaintsInDome2006 said:

I'm so jaded. The preparation between defending Bridgewater vs Hill is huge, my guess is Payton is possibly playing games here.

But Payton said that he would let the press know before Friday.

I'm not sure what to tell you. Saints fans have seen Hill do great things and they're clamoring for him here. He could legitimately rip off a 50 yard run and he has a great deep arm. Question is if he can release the ball quickly and be accurate. And it's a great offensive line.

And those of us that spent 1/5 FAAB on Bridge in Supadupaflex and had to pick up Hill can go :wall:

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