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Jeffrey Epstein: dead

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31 minutes ago, rockaction said:

Huh. That's crazy.

From a link about Maxwell. CNBC.

_________________________________________

The newspaper said Borgerson had also been spotted walking Maxwell’s dog in Boston.

Borgerson did not return requests for comment from CNBC.

However, he told NBC News in a statement: “I am traveling abroad for business. Ghislaine Maxwell is not at my home and I don’t know where she is.”

“I’m passionate about ocean policy and wish people were as interested in Jones Act reform, joining the law of the sea, and funding icebreakers,” Borgerson said. - Dan Mangan, CNBC

_______________________________________________________________________________

Ah, yes. Ocean policy. Thank you, sir, may we have another. 

I'm not familiar with Ocean policy but if that's where all involved in the Ocean's 11,12,13,whatever, are thrown in jail, I'm all for it. Don't even get me started on the whole, Juila Roberts playing Julia Roberts thing. It wasn't even a clever wink to the audience, it was a major plot point!

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Just now, Sheriff Bart said:

I'm not familiar with Ocean policy but if that's where all involved in the Ocean's 11,12,13,whatever, are thrown in jail, I'm all for it. Don't even get me started on the whole, Juila Roberts playing Julia Roberts thing. It wasn't even a clever wink to the audience, it was a major plot point!

It's about a star being a star, kind of like why we're going to see any of the Ocean's movies; thereby making it a true wink to the astute audience in the end, while only seemingly acting as a plot point. See, meta>third-person narrative. 

Uh. Huh. 

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11 minutes ago, SaintsInDome2006 said:

The Palace did. Prince Andrew should be in considerable hot water. 

I cant help but wonder if we let the prince Andrew stuff out first to see how our partner countries respond so we know where our bar should be. 

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5 minutes ago, Max Power said:

I cant help but wonder if we let the prince Andrew stuff out first to see how our partner countries respond so we know where our bar should be. 

I don’t think I have the energy to find it but supposedly one of the staff, like security or the butler, in a deposition, said there were a lot of girls over the years and also supposedly even for those who did not accept Epstein’s offers it was incredibly obvious what was going on. Yet Giuffre is fairly circumspect in who she names. She clearly hangs Andrew out to dry. However her father worked for Trump as a maintenance man at Maralago, that’s how they knew each other. That might have affected Trump’s behavior towards her or around her. I guess I’m trying to say there are a lot more abusers than just ‘Andrew’ many of whom we’ve likely never heard of.

Edited by SaintsInDome2006

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9 minutes ago, SaintsInDome2006 said:

I don’t think I have the energy to find it but supposedly one of the staff, like security or the butler, in a deposition, said there were a lot of girls over the years and also supposedly even for those who did not accept Epstein’s offers it was incredibly obvious what was going on. Yet Giuffre is fairly circumspect in who she names. She clearly hangs Andrew out to dry. However her father worked for Trump as a maintenance man at Maralago, that’s how they knew each other. That might have affected Trump’s behavior towards her or around her. I guess I’m trying to say there are a lot more abusers than just ‘Andrew’ many of whom we’ve likely never heard of.

No doubt there will be a long list before this is over. I dont think Prince Andrew will be the biggest name either. So I find him being named personally several times right off the bat interesting. 

Could be nothing or it could be testing the water to see what the reaction is first. I guess we will wait and see, but there is going to be a lot of reading involved in this saga.

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Just now, Max Power said:

No doubt there will be a long list before this is over. I dont think Prince Andrew will be the biggest name either. So I find him being named personally several times right off the bat interesting. 

Could be nothing or it could be testing the water to see what the reaction is first. I guess we will wait and see, but there is going to be a lot of reading involved in this saga.

I think Prince Andrew's name has been out there for a while - thus its easy to put back out there.

 

For as big a ring as people have made this out to be - I am more surprised that there are not a longer list of victims, making allegations against a longer list of perpetrators.

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8 minutes ago, Sinn Fein said:

I think Prince Andrew's name has been out there for a while - thus its easy to put back out there.

 

For as big a ring as people have made this out to be - I am more surprised that there are not a longer list of victims, making allegations against a longer list of perpetrators.

I've heard 3 dozen have come forward as of the arrest. I think most were against JE, but I dont know for sure. I know two people have filed claims to have their names redacted from the files. Not sure what the status of that is at the moment. 

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Has there been any speculation about Maxwell being a cooperating witness? Unless I’ve missed recent reports, she hasn’t been seen or heard from since Epstein was arrested. Maybe the impending document dump caused her to seek out a deal that resulted in Epstein getting arrested/raided and her going into witness protection. If she has flipped, that’s really bad news for any co-conspirators.

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3 minutes ago, Biff84 said:

Has there been any speculation about Maxwell being a cooperating witness? Unless I’ve missed recent reports, she hasn’t been seen or heard from since Epstein was arrested. Maybe the impending document dump caused her to seek out a deal that resulted in Epstein getting arrested/raided and her going into witness protection. If she has flipped, that’s really bad news for any co-conspirators.

I haven't heard a status update on Maxwell since the arrest. She did receive immunity from the 2007 ordeal. 

Seems to be some discussion on what that means for her now after JEs death. If powerful people really are hushing loose ends, it might be in her best interests to cooperate.

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14 minutes ago, Sinn Fein said:

I think Prince Andrew's name has been out there for a while - thus its easy to put back out there.

 

For as big a ring as people have made this out to be - I am more surprised that there are not a longer list of victims, making allegations against a longer list of perpetrators.

Fear is a pretty good way to keep people quiet. Epstein hired people to intimidate witnesses and their families in the initial Florida case. It’s very possible that the aggression may be turned up based on who the victims would implicate. The bigger the fish, the more aggressive they are or the bigger the payoff.

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The guards have lawyers now. Sad since it can  be proved or disproved with videos immediately.

 

Unless.... none of the cameras work. 👌

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7 hours ago, Encyclopedia Brown said:

Dont push those conspiracy theories around here please

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10 hours ago, Biff84 said:

Fear is a pretty good way to keep people quiet. Epstein hired people to intimidate witnesses and their families in the initial Florida case. It’s very possible that the aggression may be turned up based on who the victims would implicate. The bigger the fish, the more aggressive they are or the bigger the payoff.

The women who have come forward publicly have an incredible amount of guts

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7 hours ago, Encyclopedia Brown said:

Nothing to see here. 

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7 hours ago, Encyclopedia Brown said:

>>Among the bones broken in Epstein’s neck was the hyoid bone, which in men is near the Adam’s apple. Such breaks can occur in those who hang themselves, particularly if they are older, according to forensics experts and studies on the subject. But they are more common in victims of homicide by strangulation, the experts said.<<

>>Jonathan L. Arden, president of the National Association of Medical Examiners, said a hyoid can be broken in many circumstances but is more commonly associated with homicidal strangulation than suicidal hanging.

Arden, who was not involved in the Epstein autopsy, said that in general, a finding of a broken hyoid requires pathologists to conduct more extensive investigation. That investigation can include analysis of the location of the noose, how narrow the noose is, and if the body experienced any substantial drop in the course of the hanging.

The age of the deceased is also important, Arden said. The hyoid starts out as three small bones with joint-like connections but hardens during middle age into a U-shape that can break more easily.

“If, hypothetically, the hyoid bone is broken, that would generally raise questions about strangulation, but it is not definitive and does not exclude suicidal hanging,” he said.<<

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So Occam's razor is now on murder, if we're only admitting the autopsy.  

Edited by rockaction

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13 hours ago, Snorkelson said:

Kind of want to call him, to alert him of an upcoming fax.

Had he not died a while ago I would absolutely be onboard with this.

13 hours ago, Max Power said:

I haven't heard a status update on Maxwell since the arrest. She did receive immunity from the 2007 ordeal. 

Seems to be some discussion on what that means for her now after JEs death. If powerful people really are hushing loose ends, it might be in her best interests to cooperate.

As of yesterday, she was located in NE https://www.cbsnews.com/news/jeffrey-epstein-death-ghislaine-maxwell-allegedly-living-mansion-new-england-beach-town/ But I'm guessing she's since fled. She will be brought in and charged, she'll flip and she'll fall on a knife 20 times in prison same as Epstein. I keep going back to it but Epstein's Little Black book contains enough names of enough powerful elites that I doubt there is ever a trial.

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1 hour ago, rockaction said:

So Occam's razor is now on murder, if we're only admitting the autopsy.  

I do not agree with this.

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The autopsy, to my knowledge, shows no signs of struggle (like skin under the fingernails, bruising on the hands from trying to fend off the attacker, or defensive wounds) and no ancillary bruising or injury other than those caused by hanging, and no finger-mark bruising around the neck as one would find from manual strangulation from disproportionate pressure on the neck one gets from fingers (rather than a sheet.)  The existence of a fractured hyoid bone means you immediately assume he was strangled - which he was.  By himself.  

I hate news reports on science and crime.  This is a great example of both.

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Now, if the full autopsy report shows those other things, my opinion will be different.  But this detail doesn't make murder the simplest explanation by a long shot.

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Pretty cut and dry case imo. The news shouldnt be pushing these conspiracy theories.

They are harmful and dangerous. 

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45 minutes ago, Max Power said:

Pretty cut and dry case imo. The news shouldnt be pushing these conspiracy theories.

They are harmful and dangerous. 

First time in America? Welcome!

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50 minutes ago, Henry Ford said:

Now, if the full autopsy report shows those other things, my opinion will be different.  But this detail doesn't make murder the simplest explanation by a long shot.

Correct, it could just mean that he did not know where on his person to properly position the noose or that the noose was poorly constructed/tied..

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On 8/14/2019 at 10:50 AM, Henry Ford said:

Now that we know he hung himself from the top bunk (and that there was a top bunk to hang himself from) I think I made the right call. 

Yeah, the autopsy results are really quashing all the conjecture:

Someone helped Epstein

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21 minutes ago, Ditkaless Wonders said:

Correct, it could just mean that he did not know where on his person to properly position the noose or that the noose was poorly constructed/tied..

The research I'm familiar with suggests it's less about position of the knot than it is about physical condition (including age) of the person, relative strength of the item used for hanging, and whether a lot of extra thrashing was probably going on (like someone going into cardiac arrest.)

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Is he still dead?

Edited by identikit

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7 minutes ago, Henry Ford said:

Depends whom you ask.

For confirmation of Che Guevara death, there were photos of the corpse and DNA confirmation of his remains years later. 

Former President of Peru, Alan Garcia, shot himself in the head before he was going to be arrested, but many Peruvians I know believe he is still alive. 

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5 hours ago, identikit said:

Is he still dead?

His body was released to an "unidentified associate".

Headed to an unmarked grave at an unknown location. 

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5 hours ago, SoBeDad said:

For confirmation of Che Guevara death, there were photos of the corpse and DNA confirmation of his remains years later. 

Former President of Peru, Alan Garcia, shot himself in the head before he was going to be arrested, but many Peruvians I know believe he is still alive. 

Sure, you say that, but Hitler got away to Brazil.

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7 hours ago, Henry Ford said:

The autopsy, to my knowledge, shows no signs of struggle (like skin under the fingernails, bruising on the hands from trying to fend off the attacker, or defensive wounds) and no ancillary bruising or injury other than those caused by hanging, and no finger-mark bruising around the neck as one would find from manual strangulation from disproportionate pressure on the neck one gets from fingers (rather than a sheet.)  The existence of a fractured hyoid bone means you immediately assume he was strangled - which he was.  By himself.  

I hate news reports on science and crime.  This is a great example of both.

Of course not, he was poisoned then had his neck broken.   He also has 7 letters in his last name and his secretary warned him not to go to jail.

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>>A review of published stories found only one such death in the past 21 years, the 1998 suicide of South Philadelphia drug kingpin Louis Turra, who reportedly hanged himself.<<

NYPost

Ok so this is the NYPost, and while I do think the Post is a right wing tabloid I do think they have occasionally neat scoop when it comes to NYC sources (and that’s all they’re good for).

- I’m just curious if this gets corroborates anywhere.

Edited by SaintsInDome2006

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Prison Guard: "Hey Jeff, just checking on you. Ooops, I dropped my rope already fashioned into a noose. I don't have time to pick that up right now, but I will be back in two---three hours to retrieve it."  

 

 

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5 hours ago, Max Power said:

Wasnt it a bed sheet?

Yet another reason to go to paper sheets in prisons

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56 minutes ago, SaintsInDome2006 said:

WaPo article fuels Epstein conspiracies, but experts say evidence paper presented consistent with suicide

- Actually upon further review the autopsy results are totally consistent with suicide.

Exactly, I know the media is trying to foment the conspiracy stuff but dude hung himself. Complete incompetency by the guards and certainly seems like there were decisions made that lead down a path to this inevitable conclusion but nobody killed Jefferey Epstein accept Jefferey Epstein. 

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5 hours ago, msommer said:

Yet another reason to go to paper sheets in prisons

Then he could have killed himself by paper cuts

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