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League Tie Breaker question for 3 seed (1 Viewer)

chasyone

chasyone

Footballguy
I run an ESPN league and have a tie breaker question for the 3 seed in my league(3 seed gets to choose opponent) Here are tie breaker rules

1. Overall Record

2. Head to Head matchup 

3. Division record

4. Most points scored

3 teams have same record at 8-5

Team A and Team B are in same division 

Team C is in other 

Team A and B split their regular season matchups. Team A has better division record so he wins that tie breaker over B

Team C beat Team A in only matchup 

Team B beat Team C in only matchup 

Who gets the 3 seed? Thanks for input if not too confusing 

 
This is my logic behind my answer 

It's really difficult because if you look at head-to-head:

  • Team A 1-2
  • Team B 2-1
  • Team C 1-1
I think that it makes it unfair to consider head-to-head for Team C because they didn't get as many games as the others. Then comes division record as a tiebreak but you've got incomparable divisions. I really think most overall points between A,B, and C. 

 
rockaction said:
This is my logic behind my answer 

It's really difficult because if you look at head-to-head:

  • Team A 1-2
  • Team B 2-1
  • Team C 1-1
I think that it makes it unfair to consider head-to-head for Team C because they didn't get as many games as the others. Then comes division record as a tiebreak but you've got incomparable divisions. I really think most overall points between A,B, and C. 
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In one league I am in if the H2H record isn't decisive where one team swept, we go to the next tie breaker (points).

In the other league, it goes by win %, so team B would get it in the scenario above.  Although I agree it is unfair, I would lean to this one since Team B did "win" the head to head match ups.

Either way, the rule should be written in such a way that there is no interpretation. I know that doesn't help but the real advise is next year to define what each of those terms mean.

 
HULLOBUDMAN said:
In one league I am in if the H2H record isn't decisive where one team swept, we go to the next tie breaker (points).

In the other league, it goes by win %, so team B would get it in the scenario above.  Although I agree it is unfair, I would lean to this one since Team B did "win" the head to head match ups.

Either way, the rule should be written in such a way that there is no interpretation. I know that doesn't help but the real advise is next year to define what each of those terms mean.
Click to expand...
That's an interesting answer and a good one. 

The leagues I play in don't have divisions, so it eliminates that. It's generally done head-to-head or most overall points

 
FWIW, there was a real-life scenario a few years ago where the Eagles, Washington and a non-NFC East team finished with the same record. Washington had a better divisional record than Philly, but in a three-way tiebreaker, the Eagles would have won and claimed the playoff spot.

According to the NFL tie-breaking rules you cannot get a playoff spot ahead of a team that finishes ahead of you in your division. So first Washington won the tiebreaker over Philly, and then they won the tiebreaker over the third team.

All that said, IMO in order to keep it simple you should do total points scored as the first tiebreaker (assuming you have fractional scoring, which you should). First of all, it does the best job of rewarding the team that had the best season. Second, it causes the fewest headaches/arguments/FFB threads.

 
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I'll ask this- what is the point of the divisions? Just to determine who you play twice during the season? What is the benefit from winning your division? 

IMO the point of divisions is to determine the 1 and 2 seeds, so if this were me I would decide that Team C gets the 2 seed because he won his division

In the NFL if the Seahawks finish with a better record than the Bears, but don't win their division, they don't get seeded above the Bears. 

If Team B gets the 2 seed then, again, I'd ask- what is the point of divisions? 

 
Since teams are in different divisions the only tie break scenario after overall record that makes sense is total points scored.  That should be the 2nd tie breaker in any scenario that has a tie between teams of different divisions. 

 
Team B get the 3rd seed according to your tie breaker rules. Team C would be the 4th seed and Team A the 5th seed. 

To break the 3 way tie:

  • 1. Overall record: each team is 8-5, move on to #2 tiebreaker
  • 2. HTH match-up: Team B is 2-1, Team C is 1-1 and Team A is 1-2.

    Team B wins the tiebreaker over Team A and Team C and is the 3rd seed

Division record does not become a factor because the 3 way tie winner was determined via the 2nd tiebreaker criteria. Now that 3rd place is settled, you start the tie breaker process over to determine 4th and 5th seed:

  • 1. Overall record: both teams are 8-5, move on to #2 tiebreaker
  • 2. HTH match-up: Team C (1-0) beat Team A (0-1) in their only match-up

    Team C win the tiebreaker over Team A and is the 4th seed. Team A is the 5th seed.

 
Dr. Dan said:
I'll ask this- what is the point of the divisions? Just to determine who you play twice during the season? What is the benefit from winning your division? 

IMO the point of divisions is to determine the 1 and 2 seeds, so if this were me I would decide that Team C gets the 2 seed because he won his division

In the NFL if the Seahawks finish with a better record than the Bears, but don't win their division, they don't get seeded above the Bears. 

If Team B gets the 2 seed then, again, I'd ask- what is the point of divisions? 
Click to expand...
Yes the divisions are to determine who you  play twice and the winner of divisions get the 1-2 seeds. Those have been determined already. I’m trying to figure the 3 seed

Team A and B have same record in same division. They split their regulars matchups so the next tie breaker is division record. Team A has better division record so he won the tie breaker between them

In the other division Team C has same record as A and B at 8-5. Team C beat Team A who won above tie breaker but Team C lost to Team B

Trying to determine the 3 seed because they choose their first round opponent to play. They get to pick 4,5, or 6 seed to play 

 
chasyone said:
Yes the divisions are to determine who you  play twice and the winner of divisions get the 1-2 seeds. Those have been determined already. I’m trying to figure the 3 seed

Team A and B have same record in same division. They split their regulars matchups so the next tie breaker is division record. Team A has better division record so he won the tie breaker between them

In the other division Team C has same record as A and B at 8-5. Team C beat Team A who won above tie breaker but Team C lost to Team B

Trying to determine the 3 seed because they choose their first round opponent to play. They get to pick 4,5, or 6 seed to play 
Click to expand...
Ohhh I see. I was very confused. I thought we were trying to figure out seeds 1-3, not seeds 3-5

I would consider changing to total points as the tie breaker, but based off of your rules above, Lionsfan101 has the correct break down. In this case where there is a 3 way tie you should go to total H2H record

 
I believe this stops at the H2H matchup criteria.

A is 1-2 overall, B is 2-1, & C is 1-1.

Unless I'm missing something, it should go to B for better overall record against.

 
Last edited by a moderator:
Lionsfan011 said:
Team B get the 3rd seed according to your tie breaker rules. Team C would be the 4th seed and Team A the 5th seed. 

To break the 3 way tie:

  • 1. Overall record: each team is 8-5, move on to #2 tiebreaker
  • 2. HTH match-up: Team B is 2-1, Team C is 1-1 and Team A is 1-2.

    Team B wins the tiebreaker over Team A and Team C and is the 3rd seed

Division record does not become a factor because the 3 way tie winner was determined via the 2nd tiebreaker criteria. Now that 3rd place is settled, you start the tie breaker process over to determine 4th and 5th seed:

  • 1. Overall record: both teams are 8-5, move on to #2 tiebreaker
  • 2. HTH match-up: Team C (1-0) beat Team A (0-1) in their only match-up

    Team C win the tiebreaker over Team A and is the 4th seed. Team A is the 5th seed.
Click to expand...
i thought for the H2H tiebreaker to decide someone had to have a clean record in the group of teams being compared.... (no losses). I thought if no one has a perfect record in the group being compared... the H2H tiebreaker fails and you move on to #3 tiebreaker. i would have to go through some past final standings but that is how i thought ESPN handles it

 
iamkoza said:
i thought for the H2H tiebreaker to decide someone had to have a clean record in the group of teams being compared.... (no losses). I thought if no one has a perfect record in the group being compared... the H2H tiebreaker fails and you move on to #3 tiebreaker. i would have to go through some past final standings but that is how i thought ESPN handles it
Click to expand...
I've never heard of that, but not saying ESPN or whoever doesn't use that as criteria.

 
http://games.espn.com/ffl/resources/help/faq?name=how-do-playoff-tiebreakers-work

* When Head-to-Head record is selected as the tiebreak criteria, and in the event that three or more teams have the same winning percentage at the end of the regular season, these teams must have played the same number of games for it to be used.
Click to expand...
so to OP - per default ESPN rules H2H is discarded since your group of 3 does not have the same number of games played against. you'd have to move on to division record unless you have a league rules doc that explains otherwise

this actually explains why in my league in a group of 3 with the same record... espn shows me on top when there is someone in the group who is 2-0, and 1-0 vs the other 2.... so espn just throws H2H out the window if there is not a common number of games played

 
Last edited by a moderator:
If you are using the NFL-style of tie break, tied teams from the same division are resolved vs each other first.   After a single team from each division emerges, then a completely new tiebreak would be done between them and the remaining team(s). 

Note any time a team is eliminated in a tiebreak but other teams are left, you go back to step 1 and start over with the remaining teams only.   That isn't NFL-specific.  That's how all tiebreakers are done.  At no point should an eliminated team be factoring further into a tiebreak, and you do not make it to step 3, eliminate a team, and then go to step 4.  You back to step 1 and start over with remaining teams.

So you would resolve teams from the same division A vs B, won by A via a better division record.

Next you would do a tiebreak between A and C starting back at the top.   It would come down to head to head between A and C, won by C.   Team B was already eliminated, his record is completely moot after that point. His head to head has zero bearing on the A vs C tiebreak.

edit to add:  Head to head is only used in the NFL for multi-team ties (which would necessitate them being from 3 different divisions) if there is a head to head sweep by one team.  But you only have 2 teams tiebreaking at a time in this scenario, so that wouldn't matter anyway.

 
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If you are not using the NFL-style method, then it's really nebulous what your rules mean.  Why would you have a division record in there if it's not between teams in the same division?  Why would you have head to head but no mention of how it applies when games played aren't equal?

Since your rules are nebulous, yet you otherwise copied the NFL's for the most part but omitted the parts that clarify what you have that is nebulous... if you left it to me, I'd say you chose to use the NFL's and I'd go with them.

 
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