pantherclub
Footballguy
What we've got here is failure to communicate. Some men you just can't reach.
Keeping your head buried in the sand and continue to compare Murray to those guys is just a disservice to the thread.
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QB Kyler Murray, ARZ (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Bracie Smathers
- Start date
Keeping your head buried in the sand and continue to compare Murray to those guys is just a disservice to the thread.
The Goat
Footballguy
Just to clarify; at this point, are you telling us all we're delusional because he's too short, too light, not Doug Flutie, or Paul Newman?
Bojang0301
Omar4Heisman
Context
noun
the circumstances that form the setting for an event, statement, or idea, and in terms of which it can be fully understood and assessed.
"the decision was taken within the context of planned cuts in spending"
synonyms:circumstances, conditions, surroundings, factors, state of affairs; More
the parts of something written or spoken that immediately precede and follow a word or passage and clarify its meaning.
"word processing is affected by the context in which words appear"
Bracie Smathers
Footballguy
Obviously he's saying that he is Strother Martin.
The NFL has never had a guy with his skills and his options at his height but to dismiss him automatically due to height is a tad arrogant, nah it is very arrogant.
Naked arrogance creates arrogance blow-back.
He wasn't too short to play with the big boy in college.
His main negative is due to his height where he can't see the MOF and that will transfer to the NFL.
Saying he's too short is laziness on a Kent Dorphmin scale.
matuski
Footballguy
Bojang0301
Omar4Heisman
Sooooo... since others don’t want to do due diligence around here, I will add the needed context to argue for or against his height and then let us please close the book and discuss whether he has the prerequisite skills required to be an NFL QB outside of his height (which is a deficiency already baked into his career at OU).
First let me say that Murray is the unicorn of unicorn NFL QB’s. In the past 12 years, 11 QB’s have been drafted under 6’1. In the past ~30 years only 5 QB’s have been drafted in the first round <6’1. As far as I can tell no QB has ever been drafted in the first round under 6’0. The lists in these specific categories are not necessarily pretty.
QB’s in the last ten years at 6’1 and under: Baker Mayfield, Cody Kessler, Johnny Manziel, Aaron Murray, Tajh Boyd, BJ Daniels, Russell Wilson, Tyrod Taylor, Colt McCoy, Pat White and Nate Davis.
1st Round QB’s in the past 30 years under 6’1: Cade McNown, Mike Vick, Rex Grossman, Johnny Manziel and Baker Mayfield.
Of the QB’s listed Vick and Wilson are the two to have long and relatively properous NFL careers.
The history of outliers, however, shows that if they have the requisite skill to be an NFL QB their height and build probably have little to do with durability. The list of QB’s considered “the best” 6’0 and under is quite an interesting one:
Drew Brees 6’0 209lbs started 263 of 264 career games; 17 years of being active
Mike Vick 6’0 215lbs started 115 of 143 career games; 11 years (minus 3 in prison) of being active
Russell Wilson 5’11 215lbs started 112 of 112 career games; 6 years of being active
Doug Flutie 5’9 (listed 5’10) 180lbs started 66 of 92 career games (not accounting for time in USFL/CFL); 19 years of being active
Sonny Jurgenson 5’11 202lbs started 147 of 208 career games; 17 years of being active
Fran Tarkenton 6’0 190lbs started 239 of 246 career games; 17 years of being active
Everyone is free to draw their own conclusions. He is definitely short and definitely an outlier. That much is duly noted by all parties. Whether you think that affects his play to a degree where he can’t be a QB in the NFL (skill based evaluation) is what matters. I would say that it is at very least safe to conclude that size and injuries is little more than bad luck. Anyone can be Thiesman’d at any point in time in the NFL. We’ve been arguing for decades about durability but unless it is already a constant issue (which it has not been for Murray) it should not be assumed to be an issue. This is my attempt to make this the last post I have about his height/size. As the kids say don’t @ me (or in this case don’t quote me).
First let me say that Murray is the unicorn of unicorn NFL QB’s. In the past 12 years, 11 QB’s have been drafted under 6’1. In the past ~30 years only 5 QB’s have been drafted in the first round <6’1. As far as I can tell no QB has ever been drafted in the first round under 6’0. The lists in these specific categories are not necessarily pretty.
QB’s in the last ten years at 6’1 and under: Baker Mayfield, Cody Kessler, Johnny Manziel, Aaron Murray, Tajh Boyd, BJ Daniels, Russell Wilson, Tyrod Taylor, Colt McCoy, Pat White and Nate Davis.
1st Round QB’s in the past 30 years under 6’1: Cade McNown, Mike Vick, Rex Grossman, Johnny Manziel and Baker Mayfield.
Of the QB’s listed Vick and Wilson are the two to have long and relatively properous NFL careers.
The history of outliers, however, shows that if they have the requisite skill to be an NFL QB their height and build probably have little to do with durability. The list of QB’s considered “the best” 6’0 and under is quite an interesting one:
Drew Brees 6’0 209lbs started 263 of 264 career games; 17 years of being active
Mike Vick 6’0 215lbs started 115 of 143 career games; 11 years (minus 3 in prison) of being active
Russell Wilson 5’11 215lbs started 112 of 112 career games; 6 years of being active
Doug Flutie 5’9 (listed 5’10) 180lbs started 66 of 92 career games (not accounting for time in USFL/CFL); 19 years of being active
Sonny Jurgenson 5’11 202lbs started 147 of 208 career games; 17 years of being active
Fran Tarkenton 6’0 190lbs started 239 of 246 career games; 17 years of being active
Everyone is free to draw their own conclusions. He is definitely short and definitely an outlier. That much is duly noted by all parties. Whether you think that affects his play to a degree where he can’t be a QB in the NFL (skill based evaluation) is what matters. I would say that it is at very least safe to conclude that size and injuries is little more than bad luck. Anyone can be Thiesman’d at any point in time in the NFL. We’ve been arguing for decades about durability but unless it is already a constant issue (which it has not been for Murray) it should not be assumed to be an issue. This is my attempt to make this the last post I have about his height/size. As the kids say don’t @ me (or in this case don’t quote me).
Bracie Smathers
Footballguy
Their is no established Mendoza line with Gandalf slamming his staff down shouting 'You shall not pass' as a QB in the NFL because you're too short.
Carl said it best.
------------------------
“The absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence.”
― Carl Sagan, Cosmos
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He played with big boys in college where he put up his stats. Baker Mayfield did it and his game transferred and one of the biggest/littlest arguments against his game transferring was his height and the system he played in.
Exact same arguments with Kyler but he is 3 inches shorter and 15 lbs lighter and he has over $4 million sitting in his bank account if he doesn't play football.
Kyler won't go #1 but no one has posted this sign outside at the NFL draft to prevent him playing in the NFL. >>> LINK
Carl said it best.
------------------------
“The absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence.”
― Carl Sagan, Cosmos
------------------------
He played with big boys in college where he put up his stats. Baker Mayfield did it and his game transferred and one of the biggest/littlest arguments against his game transferring was his height and the system he played in.
Exact same arguments with Kyler but he is 3 inches shorter and 15 lbs lighter and he has over $4 million sitting in his bank account if he doesn't play football.
Kyler won't go #1 but no one has posted this sign outside at the NFL draft to prevent him playing in the NFL. >>> LINK
Csonka4life
Footballguy
Flutie was measured at 5'9" and 7/8's at the combine a doc on his life showed his measurements. If Doug started shrinking it would be unusual at his age as he is only about 55. I know that I am a shade under 6' and my father who floated from 5'9" and a half to 5'10". When he hit his late 70's he shrank down to about 5'8" and I could clearly see over his head. Murray to me looks about 5'10" and change.
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Bojang0301
Omar4Heisman
Lol... Baker Mayfield shook the foundation so much he has Mr. “Never will a 6’0 QB get taken with the #1 pick” Mel Kiper himself saying Murray can work at the pro level. Maybe analytics has jumped the shark if Kiper is caving.
pantherclub
Footballguy
Bojang0301
Omar4Heisman
pantherclub
Footballguy
i take that as a "no"
Elevencents
Footballguy
Is there something I’m missing? Is the specific composite of weight a person holds between 190 and 200 determine their ultimate durability? Must be made of stuff more than just tissue and fluid, right? Because this is never brought up when a guy is 200lbs. But 190lbs? Nope won’t last. (Exaggerating the distinct cutoffs, but you get the point).
Csonka4life
Footballguy
BMI is a better guideline. Murray at say 5' 9" 190 is stockier than say Johnny Football at 6' 200.
Leroy Hoard
Footballguy
Yes, it's also what I look at with rbs. Barry Sanders was short but far from frail.
Interseptopus
Footballguy
not trying to instigate, but I doubt your father played in the NFL.
Life experiences dictate our anatomical changes over time. which is why I specifically mention his profession here
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RUSF18
Footballguy
I'd also like to know what everyone's timeline is in the "can his body hold up?" argument. Is the question if he'll be able to have a 10+ year career? Survive his first contract? Make it to the end of his rookie year? Or is the expectation that his body will just explode the first time he takes a blindside hit in a game?
Because wherever you are in that timeline, you should probably think about how much value a team would possibly be getting out of one of the most talented and athletic QB prospects that has been around in a while. You know, before his "body combustion" point gets triggered in a league that is continually doing more and more to protect QBs.
Because wherever you are in that timeline, you should probably think about how much value a team would possibly be getting out of one of the most talented and athletic QB prospects that has been around in a while. You know, before his "body combustion" point gets triggered in a league that is continually doing more and more to protect QBs.
Leroy Hoard
Footballguy
It could easily all be a moot point if he's just trying to squeeze more money out of baseball.
Bracie Smathers
Footballguy
He played a full year of QB, put up monster stats and won the Heisman Trophy.
Heck of a long-wind ploy to get more money from baseball.
Leroy Hoard
Footballguy
Seriously, if I was a GM that didn't like him I'd be telling everyone else how awesome he was.
Leroy Hoard
Footballguy
Sorry, you have already been gifted with the worse divisional competition in the NFL. You get no more breaks.
Kyler Murray is a lot like RGIII only smaller.
RGIII was a legit track star at Baylor and while not as quick as Murray off the line he was faster, more straight line speed.
Murray week in and week out vs big bad NFL defenses, might work a year, maybe two, then his lack of bulk and the hits would take their toil.
Where is RGIII today, yep, riding a bench in Baltimore, what happened? Well that will be Kyler Murray, trust me.
RGIII was a legit track star at Baylor and while not as quick as Murray off the line he was faster, more straight line speed.
Murray week in and week out vs big bad NFL defenses, might work a year, maybe two, then his lack of bulk and the hits would take their toil.
Where is RGIII today, yep, riding a bench in Baltimore, what happened? Well that will be Kyler Murray, trust me.
http://www.soonersports.com/SportSelect.dbml?DB_OEM_ID=31000&amp;SPID=127245&amp;SPSID=750326
The Sooners have had NFL sized OL
Bojang0301
Omar4Heisman
You must have a really hard time coming to grips that Darren Sproles played as a 35 year old last year.
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This QB draft is weak, with Haskins as the only QB drafted in the first round in most mocks, usually to the Giants. This definitely has some impact on Murray's value.
Murray doesn't have the same over the top attitude as Baker, but he's as determined and he could definitely breathe some life into a perennial losing franchise. If Baker is done in 3 years due to injury, I'm still saying he woke up the Browns and got them headed in the right direction. I think Murray could do the same. That's worth a bunch. If they last 10-15 years, it'll be a great pick but it's a fine pick for the Browns already.
Murray doesn't have the same over the top attitude as Baker, but he's as determined and he could definitely breathe some life into a perennial losing franchise. If Baker is done in 3 years due to injury, I'm still saying he woke up the Browns and got them headed in the right direction. I think Murray could do the same. That's worth a bunch. If they last 10-15 years, it'll be a great pick but it's a fine pick for the Browns already.
Alex McGough will be the Jags starting QB, that's my prediction. I was so impressed predraft by the writeups and the highlights. Then he was arguably the best QB last preseason. The Hawks couldn't hold him on the roster all season and the Jags scooped him up last minute. He's cerebral and calm and I think if you get that in a camp against the Jags current QBs, they "have to" go with McGough.
Cody isn't that bad. I watched a bunch of Jags games and was not left feeling that the losses were on him. Maybe he develops into a better passer and can do 3 300 yard games in a row but right now he's just doing the bare minimum but very well. Regardless, he's a fine backup and most teams backups stink. There were a number of times the announcers pointed out he avoided a bad throw that the offense probably called for and that Bortles would have made. Yeah the drive stalled but it would have been an INT. He's got a head to his game and most young quarterbacks do not. They just chuck it.
There should definitely be more Cody's in the NFL. Maybe they develop into more, but for now, they can cover a game or two and you can lean on the run game. We are so obsessed with a prototype that we're forgetting the determination to win and lead, making good decisions, and good throws. Most fans curse when their backups are in the game and if it's long enough, you're even gonna hear a rant. It's been like this for years and it's so bad that announcers talk like Frank Reich was the last good backup. I'm at a point where I would probably prefer an undrafted athlete from some tiny D3 college over some supposed prototype coming off the sideline. I guarantee you the D3 guy is going to play with heart and do all he can. Sorry off topic, it's just it's so bad in the NFL. The backups are awful
Cody isn't that bad. I watched a bunch of Jags games and was not left feeling that the losses were on him. Maybe he develops into a better passer and can do 3 300 yard games in a row but right now he's just doing the bare minimum but very well. Regardless, he's a fine backup and most teams backups stink. There were a number of times the announcers pointed out he avoided a bad throw that the offense probably called for and that Bortles would have made. Yeah the drive stalled but it would have been an INT. He's got a head to his game and most young quarterbacks do not. They just chuck it.
There should definitely be more Cody's in the NFL. Maybe they develop into more, but for now, they can cover a game or two and you can lean on the run game. We are so obsessed with a prototype that we're forgetting the determination to win and lead, making good decisions, and good throws. Most fans curse when their backups are in the game and if it's long enough, you're even gonna hear a rant. It's been like this for years and it's so bad that announcers talk like Frank Reich was the last good backup. I'm at a point where I would probably prefer an undrafted athlete from some tiny D3 college over some supposed prototype coming off the sideline. I guarantee you the D3 guy is going to play with heart and do all he can. Sorry off topic, it's just it's so bad in the NFL. The backups are awful
Bojang0301
Omar4Heisman
So you think Kyler Murray is going to have an arm injury? I either want some of what your smoking or your crystal ball. This whole “he’s going to get hurt” talk holds zero water. It doesn’t hold up with the short QB’s who have been high level QB’s and it doesn’t hold water with mobile QB’s. RGIII had a knee injury prior to the NFL that was already a problem. Vick, Cunningham and Young all had extremely long careers. Russell Wilson and Drew Brees have both had long and extremely durable careers. Your rhetoric has been told over and over and over again throughout the history of the NFL and it is completely and totally wrong. He either can play the position or he can’t. Worrying about his breaking point is both silly and irrelevant.
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What is Murray's game, it's not standing tall in the pocket, it's running the football. How much does the guy weigh?
Why is anyone talking about his size at all? Why is there anything about is he too small? Yep, injury.
Russell Wilson is thick, is that Murray?
Young had a 6 season career and not one 16 game season.
Google...injury and Randall Cunningham. He only had 3 16 game seasons....why?
Vick only had one 16 game season, why?
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Bojang0301
Omar4Heisman
That’s the question that needs to be answered to be fair. If he is 190 lbs at 5’9 7/8 that’s a 27.3 BMI. That’s the same as Peyton Manning and Philip Rivers. I honestly don’t know of anyone who puts emphasis on QB BMI as a metric because going through the list it’s arbitrary and seems pretty irrelevant. I.E. QB injuries are unpredicatable. Whereas ZWK can post that a 26 BMI is a decent cut off point for WR’s and going through that list you see the WR’s under that and their laundry list of injuries. Does his height matter? Maybe. I personally don’t think so but if I’m wrong it will be because he’s not qualified to play the position. Any injury will be coincidental as injuries happen all the time in the sport. There is some correlation for those who are constantly injured (Tyler Eifert) but this is not that case right now. Let’s not forget that Carson Palmer and Tom Brady got their ACL’s torn standing in a pocket. Both of them played into their late 30’s. RGIII is still in the league but not deemed good enough to start. That has everything to do with his deficiencies as an NFL passer. If you believe that Murray has those same deficiencies then I really wouldn’t be arguing with you because it becomes a tangible reason to not like someone. To just come in and say he’s too small and he’ll get injured though... it’s just not a correct notion. Too many have walked in here to say it though.
You mentioned Vick.....had one 16 game season. Cunningham....had three 16 game seasons. Young only played 6 seasons and never had a 16 game season.
Now take a few minutes and find out why that was the case. Yep....injuries.
Then you wonder why I;m concerned over a running QB who is also smallish.
Where did you get that idea those three didn't have injury problems?
You weren't aware of this?
What if...Randall Cunningham had been healthy through the 1991 and 1993 seasons?
The background: In the opening game of the 1991 season, Eagles' quarterback Randall Cunningham was injured and knocked out for the season. Philadelphia still went 10-6 in spite of four losses in which a third-string quarterback started, but missed the playoffs by one game. In 1993, the Eagles started 4-0 with Cunningham as the starting quarterback, but he was knocked out for the season in the last of those wins against the New York Jets. Again the Eagles lost four games in which a third-string quarterback started, and their 8-8 record left them one game out of the last wild card berth.
A whole history of that.
Michael Vick Injury & The Top Ten Most Devastating NFL Injuries Of 2010 Season. Philadelphia Eagles quarterback Michael Vick suffered a rib injury today while being sandwiched by two Washington Redskins defenders. He left the game late in the first quarter, and did not return.Oct 4, 2010
Scratching my head on why you talked about those guys when they are why I feel like I do,
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-OZ-
Footballguy
Maybe, sorta kinda.
The big XII has two QBs in the league most of us think will be successful, before this year the best in recent years was tannehill, VY, RG3 or Bradford.
I don't really buy that his being successful with his physical attributes means those attributes will translate into the NFL.
he certainly can, but I'm not sure what you mean by his height is baked into his career at OU. it's different when the worst players you'll be around were the best you had been around.
Bojang0301
Omar4Heisman
Yes I do... this is a fantasy football message board. Also, I was talking about Steve Young who was a scrambling QB before he dedicated himself to be a pocket QB.
pantherclub
Footballguy
20ish pounds of muscle is an insane difference. I honest to God dont know why bojang wants to keep dying on this particular hill. Why he doesnt think size is a factor in game planning and more importantly in regards to health is just bizarre. He keeps pointing to a handful of qbs (still larger than him) that have been successful while ignoring the ones that were not. Such a weird angle he is taking.
Why he talked Cunningham/Vick who were constantly hurt???? In about 30 seasons combined they play 4 16 game seasons, combined.
I agree....weird.
Bojang0301
Omar4Heisman
Neither of you (probably the same person if I had to guess considering there is zero volume on the board right now) has provided any foundation to suggest small QB’s get injured. I have provided many, many examples and I am once again done with the discussion and have another person on ignore. Go discuss the 1961 Montreal Allouttes... I’m sure that wins a lot of fantasy leagues.
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pantherclub
Footballguy
This is pure lol funny. Accusing someone disagreeing with you as an alias, not understanding how size is important in the NFL and then finally taking his ball and going home.
Well if you think I need to play that silly immature BS then we are done on this. Believe what ya like.
See ya~~~~
