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Bracie Smathers

QB Kyler Murray Oklahoma

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26 minutes ago, Bojang0301 said:

I keep waiting for you to add context. Please enlighten us all. Maybe start with the amount of games Flutie played and work upward and you will see how wrong and unjustified you are. You want to talk about short guys lay me down Brees, Flutie, Wilson, Mayfield... games started and games injured. You want to talk about mobile or run first QB’s list the injuries sustained by Mike Vick, Cam Newton, Randall Cunningham, Lamar Jackson, Steve Young and how that impacted them in comparison to contemporaries or against their fantasy finishes. In fact, please do anything other than say he’s 5’9 for the love of god. 

What we've got here is failure to communicate. Some men you just can't reach. 

 

Keeping your head buried in the sand and continue to compare Murray to those guys is just a disservice to the thread.

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11 minutes ago, pantherclub said:

What we've got here is failure to communicate. Some men you just can't reach. 

 

Keeping your head buried in the sand and continue to compare Murray to those guys is just a disservice to the thread.

Just to clarify; at this point, are you telling us all we're delusional because he's too short, too light, not Doug Flutie, or Paul Newman?

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14 minutes ago, pantherclub said:

What we've got here is failure to communicate. Some men you just can't reach. 

 

Keeping your head buried in the sand and continue to compare Murray to those guys is just a disservice to the thread.

Context

noun

the circumstances that form the setting for an event, statement, or idea, and in terms of which it can be fully understood and assessed.

"the decision was taken within the context of planned cuts in spending"

synonyms:circumstances, conditions, surroundings, factors, state of affairs; More

the parts of something written or spoken that immediately precede and follow a word or passage and clarify its meaning.

"word processing is affected by the context in which words appear"

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2 minutes ago, The Goat said:

or Paul Newman?

Obviously he's saying that he is Strother Martin.  🤡

The NFL has never had a guy with his skills and his options at his height but to dismiss him automatically due to height is a tad arrogant, nah it is very arrogant.

Naked arrogance creates arrogance blow-back.  

He wasn't too short to play with the big boy in college.  

His main negative is due to his height where he can't see the MOF and that will transfer to the NFL.  

Saying he's too short is laziness on a Kent Dorphmin scale.

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Sooooo... since others don’t want to do due diligence around here, I will add the needed context to argue for or against his height and then let us please close the book and discuss whether he has the prerequisite skills required to be an NFL QB outside of his height (which is a deficiency already baked into his career at OU).

First let me say that Murray is the unicorn of unicorn NFL QB’s. In the past 12 years, 11 QB’s have been drafted under 6’1. In the past ~30 years only 5 QB’s have been drafted in the first round <6’1. As far as I can tell no QB has ever been drafted in the first round under 6’0. The lists in these specific categories are not necessarily pretty.

QB’s in the last ten years at 6’1 and under: Baker Mayfield, Cody Kessler, Johnny Manziel, Aaron Murray, Tajh Boyd, BJ Daniels, Russell Wilson, Tyrod Taylor, Colt McCoy, Pat White and Nate Davis.

1st Round QB’s in the past 30 years under 6’1: Cade McNown, Mike Vick, Rex Grossman, Johnny Manziel and Baker Mayfield.

Of the QB’s listed Vick and Wilson are the two to have long and relatively properous NFL careers.

The history of outliers, however, shows that if they have the requisite skill to be an NFL QB their height and build probably have little to do with durability. The list of QB’s considered “the best” 6’0 and under is quite an interesting one:

Drew Brees 6’0 209lbs started 263 of 264 career games; 17 years of being active

Mike Vick 6’0 215lbs started 115 of 143 career games; 11 years (minus 3 in prison) of being active

Russell Wilson 5’11 215lbs started 112 of 112 career games; 6 years of being active

Doug Flutie 5’9 (listed 5’10) 180lbs started 66 of 92 career games (not accounting for time in USFL/CFL); 19 years of being active

Sonny Jurgenson 5’11 202lbs started 147 of 208 career games; 17 years of being active

Fran Tarkenton 6’0 190lbs started 239 of 246 career games; 17 years of being active

Everyone is free to draw their own conclusions. He is definitely short and definitely an outlier. That much is duly noted by all parties. Whether you think that affects his play to a degree where he can’t be a QB in the NFL (skill based evaluation) is what matters. I would say that it is at very least safe to conclude that size and injuries is little more than bad luck. Anyone can be Thiesman’d at any point in time in the NFL. We’ve been arguing for decades about durability but unless it is already a constant issue (which it has not been for Murray) it should not be assumed to be an issue. This is my attempt to make this the last post I have about his height/size. As the kids say don’t @ me (or in this case don’t quote me).

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Their is no established Mendoza line with Gandalf slamming his staff down shouting 'You shall not pass' as a QB in the NFL because you're too short.

Carl said it best.

------------------------

“The absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence.”


― Carl Sagan, Cosmos

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He played with big boys in college where he put up his stats.  Baker Mayfield did it and his game transferred and one of the biggest/littlest arguments against his game transferring was his height and the system he played in. 

Exact same arguments with Kyler but he is 3 inches shorter and 15 lbs lighter and he has over $4 million sitting in his bank account if he doesn't play football.

Kyler won't go #1 but no one has posted this sign outside at the NFL draft to prevent him playing in the NFL. >>>  LINK

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On 1/14/2019 at 8:49 PM, Dr. Dan said:

I think it's entirely possible Flutie was made taller than he really is. It's also entirely possible that he has lost some height since his playing days. it does happen to most of us as we age

Flutie was measured at 5'9" and 7/8's at the combine a doc on his life showed his measurements.  If Doug started shrinking it would be unusual at his age as he is only about 55.  I know that I am a shade under 6' and my father who floated from 5'9" and a half to 5'10".  When he hit his late 70's he shrank down to about 5'8" and I could clearly see over his head.  Murray to me looks about 5'10" and change.

Edited by Csonka4life

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Lol... Baker Mayfield shook the foundation so much he has Mr. “Never will a 6’0 QB get taken with the #1 pick” Mel Kiper himself saying Murray can work at the pro level. Maybe analytics has jumped the shark if Kiper is caving.

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18 minutes ago, Bojang0301 said:

Lol... Baker Mayfield shook the foundation so much he has Mr. “Never will a 6’0 QB get taken with the #1 pick” Mel Kiper himself saying Murray can work at the pro level. Maybe analytics has jumped the shark if Kiper is caving.

do you think a 5'10 190lb qb can sustain the beating from a nfl defense?

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Is there something I’m missing? Is the specific composite of weight a person holds between 190 and 200 determine their ultimate durability? Must be made of stuff more than just tissue and fluid, right? Because this is never brought up when a guy is 200lbs. But 190lbs? Nope won’t last. (Exaggerating the distinct cutoffs, but you get the point). 

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26 minutes ago, Csonka4life said:

BMI is a better guideline.   Murray at say 5' 9" 190 is stockier than say Johnny Football at 6' 200.  

Yes, it's also what I look at with rbs. Barry Sanders was short but far from frail.

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6 hours ago, Csonka4life said:

Flutie was measured at 5'9" and 7/8's at the combine a doc on his life showed his measurements.  If Doug started shrinking it would be unusual at his age as he is only about 55.  I know that I am a shade under 6' and my father who floated from 5'9" and a half to 5'10".  When he hit his late 70's he shrank down to about 5'8" and I could clearly see over his head.  Murray to me looks about 5'10" and change.

not trying to instigate, but I doubt your father played in the NFL. 

Life experiences dictate our anatomical changes over time. which is why I specifically mention his profession here 

the man measured 30 years ago could very well be 2 or 3 inches shorter today.

especially if he played a violent game for his career. 
Edited by Dr. Dan

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I'd also like to know what everyone's timeline is in the "can his body hold up?" argument. Is the question if he'll be able to have a 10+ year career? Survive his first contract? Make it to the end of his rookie year? Or is the expectation that his body will just explode the first time he takes a blindside hit in a game?

Because wherever you are in that timeline, you should probably think about how much value a team would possibly be getting out of one of the most talented and athletic QB prospects that has been around in a while. You know, before his "body combustion" point gets triggered in a league that is continually doing more and more to protect QBs.

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How is he going to see over lineman?  No thanks.  I know QBs find holes in the line to see, but geez, this guy is a runt.

Edited by JohnnyU

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28 minutes ago, Leroy Hoard said:

It could easily all be a moot point if he's just trying to squeeze more money out of baseball.

He played a full year of QB, put up monster stats and won the Heisman Trophy.

Heck of a long-wind ploy to get more money from baseball.

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