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Undocumented Immigrant Thread (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter timschochet
- Start date
KCitons
Footballguy
What would the cost to the U.S. taxpayer be?
Every dollar over the cost of a wall will be scrutinized. If the countries don't become a better option for them, then we have wasted money and received zero results.
KCitons
Footballguy
You said we need more labor here in the States. But want to fix their countries so they stay.
Isn't one of those counterproductive to the other?
Hawkeye21
Footballguy
I have no idea. Someone smarter than me would have to put that budget together. I know I'd rather see money go towards something like that instead of a wall though. I could be way off on this too as it may not be feasible for us financially.
Mile High
Footballguy
Hawkeye21
Footballguy
I understand your point. No matter what I think we are still going to get people wanting to immigrate into the US. My idea for a solution would greatly decrease the amount of people coming into the country.
Hawkeye21
Footballguy
Possibly. I think strengthening their countries would still be more beneficial to us. I think there are still going to be enough people wanting to come work in the US.
Ditkaless Wonders
Footballguy
Mile High
Footballguy
I see both points. I worked in construction my whole life. I have moved to different states multiple times in my life for better jobs, better money. Moving to a place for work is probably more in my mindset then others.
The Commish
Footballguy
I did the math in this thread a while back to try and illustrate how expensive the wall is and how many people the new segments alone would have to stop, deport and insure they never reenter again (which a wall CAN'T do)....even used the GOP talking point of tens of thousands of dollars each illegal "costs" us even though the number has been thoroughly debunked. I believe it was around 2 million "illegals" per segment. The reality is a wall, for what it actually provides, is probably the most inefficient approach to the real problems we are experiencing at our southern border today. One might even argue a wall does ZERO to help with the problems we are facing at the border right now. I have yet to see a cogent argument regarding cost/benefit from anyone reputable on this subject.
roadkill1292
Footballguy
No Wall. No compromise.
timschochet
Footballguy
+1.
Since a wall is the worst possible outcome, far worse than any solution you’re attempting to solve by having it, it’s not something that can be open to compromise.
KCitons
Footballguy
Then don't complain when undocumented immigrants are sent back to their country along with their children that were born here.
That's not something that can be open to compromise.
Ditkaless Wonders
Footballguy
Would a wall keep folks out? I suggest that history and our own experiences would tell us the answer is no. Hadrian's wall was a bust, the Great wall of China, a bust, the Great Western Wall, every castle ever built, walls don't keep folks out. sometimes they are pretty good at locking people in, but not out.
Would it be an ecological disaster? Maybe, probably. Animals are seasonally migratory.
Does it address responsible immigration policy? Not in the least. While a secure border might assist in shaping immigration policy this does not secure the border. Manpower secures borders.
Should we allow illegal immigrants to overwhelm us, driving policy? No. We should be the masters of our fate. We need to remain a nation of laws, crafted for reason and purpose, not succumbing to pressure from others.
Do we need immigrants? Probably so.
Would we benefit from guest workers on top of immigrants? Certainly.
Do I like Latinos or am I bigoted against them? I like Latinos. I like Latinas. I like their musics, their cuisines, their language. I like their countries. I do not like their bugs, or some of their leaders, the dictatorial ones. I like their literature.
Should we help our neighbors? Yeah.
Should we round up and deport law breakers? Yes.
Will the last answer cause some to question the answer two before it? Undoubtedly.
Would it be an ecological disaster? Maybe, probably. Animals are seasonally migratory.
Does it address responsible immigration policy? Not in the least. While a secure border might assist in shaping immigration policy this does not secure the border. Manpower secures borders.
Should we allow illegal immigrants to overwhelm us, driving policy? No. We should be the masters of our fate. We need to remain a nation of laws, crafted for reason and purpose, not succumbing to pressure from others.
Do we need immigrants? Probably so.
Would we benefit from guest workers on top of immigrants? Certainly.
Do I like Latinos or am I bigoted against them? I like Latinos. I like Latinas. I like their musics, their cuisines, their language. I like their countries. I do not like their bugs, or some of their leaders, the dictatorial ones. I like their literature.
Should we help our neighbors? Yeah.
Should we round up and deport law breakers? Yes.
Will the last answer cause some to question the answer two before it? Undoubtedly.
sho nuff
Footballguy
I like this but would add the “should we round up and deport law breakers” is a bit larger than a simple yes or no.
I think a threshold is needed there and simple tickets or misdemeanors probably should not lead to a person being deported (especially if the rest of the family would then be left without a wage earner or the person would be leaving behind kids who are citizens). Violent crimes...yes, I don’t have much tolerance there and nor should there be.
Ditkaless Wonders
Footballguy
A compassionate stance. That compassion has become a bludgeon with which we have been knocked about. I would note that Families are not deprived of a wage earner, just a wage earner in this country. I would note that separation of families on deportation of illegals would be at their choice. I would allow natural born citizens to return, maybe that means when they are adults, not dependent upon their wage earner.
Is this harsh, maybe. Does it uphold the rule of law, certainly, and I value that. Does it provide opportunity and space for those who follow the rules, absolutely, an important matter in my mind.
Would I give a rats ### about the rule of law if my family were suffering on the wrong side of a border? Absolutely not. I would violate the law to secure my family a better future.
Sheriff Bart
Footballguy
"Hey! What gives you the right?"
"To put up a fence to keep me out or to keep mother nature in"
"If God was here he'd tell you to your face, man, you're some kinda sinner"
~Five Man Electrical Band
SaintsInDome2006
Footballguy
This is old hat but people fall into Trump’s magic bs trap by referring to a wall. Even Trump isn’t building a wall if he gets what he wants. Elaborate fencing / technology / manpower policy? Trumpites ain’t interested. ‘WALL’? Oh yeah, feed it to them all day.
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KCitons
Footballguy
Crossing the border at points other than designated entry points is breaking the law.
Remaining in the country as an undocumented person is breaking the law.
It's odd how some want to regulate American citizens more than they want to regulate immigrants that have already broken established laws.
Remaining in the country as an undocumented person is breaking the law.
It's odd how some want to regulate American citizens more than they want to regulate immigrants that have already broken established laws.
Ditkaless Wonders
Footballguy
I try to live my life by the philosophes espoused by the Five Man Electrical Band, the Free Electric Band, the Band, and the Archies.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fvKlUfVb90Y
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Hawkeye21
Footballguy
I think it's odd that we have higher standards for posters on a fantasy football forum than we do our own President. It's a messed up world we live in, isn't it?
KCitons
Footballguy
You're preaching to the choir. I've said numerous times that I don't trust the path our government has taken in the past few decades. It's not a left or right thing. It's a politician being out for themselves thing.
Hawkeye21
Footballguy
KCitons
Footballguy
Not really. We need to hold those we vote in accountable.
I suggested an accountability contract with all elected officials. If they can spend months spewing campaign promises in order to get elected, then they can put those promises on paper. Failure to act on those promises, would initiate removal from office.
The only other person that gets by with this is a weatherman.
Hawkeye21
Footballguy
SaintsInDome2006
Footballguy
I kind of agree with this but the 1965 INA is a 2 way street. The law requires we let people in by certain quantities and using certain methods and also asylum rules must be followed. Trump is breaking those laws daily.
The Commish
Footballguy
It's ultimately the voter's responsibility...no one else's. We hold them accountable by voting them out if they don't do their jobs. That's what a representative democracy is and how it works.
KCitons
Footballguy
Then KCitons suggests many of the posters here should shut up for another 18 months. Complaining about it now will make zero difference. Had there been an accountability agreement, removal proceedings could be initiated. But probably not with Trump. He's tried to do most of the things that he promised. The biggest fail is having Mexico pay for the wall.
In reality, he's brought exactly what he said he was going to do during his campaign. A lot of people didn't like it then, and they don't like it now. But, as you pointed out, it was the responsibility of the voters.
KCitons
Footballguy
Which is why I've tried to approach it from a middle ground. What do Trump supporters want in regards to immigrants entering this country? What do Trump haters want in regards to immigrants entering this country?
Hope City delivers what both are looking for.
timschochet
Footballguy
I changed the title of this thread to include the following news:
https://www.google.com/amp/s/beta.washingtonpost.com/immigration/ice-raids-targeting-migrant-families-slated-to-start-sunday-in-major-us-cities/2019/06/21/f2936318-942e-11e9-b570-6416efdc0803_story.html%3foutputType=amp
Personally this makes me sick to my stomach. We’ll see how the public reacts.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/beta.washingtonpost.com/immigration/ice-raids-targeting-migrant-families-slated-to-start-sunday-in-major-us-cities/2019/06/21/f2936318-942e-11e9-b570-6416efdc0803_story.html%3foutputType=amp
Personally this makes me sick to my stomach. We’ll see how the public reacts.
OrtonToOlsen
Footballguy
Which “public”?
The public with more than a shred of human decency or the you-know-whos?
parasaurolophus
Footballguy
Incognito mode doesnt work for WP any more so I cant read article, but aren't these raids supposed to only be for people that have had final orders for removal?
timschochet
Footballguy
timschochet
Footballguy
Here is a CNN article:
https://www-m.cnn.com/2019/06/21/politics/ice-immigration-raids/index.html?r=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.cnn.com%2F
According to that, they’re starting with families who have received court ordered removals.
I suppose that will change the minds of some people reading this. It doesn’t change mine but I tend to be extreme on this issue.
https://www-m.cnn.com/2019/06/21/politics/ice-immigration-raids/index.html?r=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.cnn.com%2F
According to that, they’re starting with families who have received court ordered removals.
I suppose that will change the minds of some people reading this. It doesn’t change mine but I tend to be extreme on this issue.
Ditkaless Wonders
Footballguy
Sunday, a day the courts are traditionally closed.
Mr Anonymous
Footballguy
Just last week you responded to a post of mine saying you couldn't read a WaPo article. Is your disgust strictly from the headline or did you pony up and subscribe?
timschochet
Footballguy
Neither. I get a News app on my phone that allowed me to read that particular story. Normally I can't read WaPo stories. I really should subscribe though.
Mr Anonymous
Footballguy
Got it. Not that I'd blame you for disgust at the headline. I can't read the article myself since I'm out of free views for the month. I'm leery of what facts might be left out of the CNN article.
KCitons
Footballguy
What is it that makes you sick to your stomach?
If we are deporting people that have been through the process and been told they are to leave the country, isn't that the same as someone ignoring a sentencing on any other court decision?
parasaurolophus
Footballguy
I think there are plenty of threads to make a general statement like this, but since you are making it in this thread are we to assume you are against all deportations and consider them cruel?
John Blutarsky
Footballguy
timschochet
Footballguy
I don't believe anyone living here without proper papers should be rounded up and deported unless it is a violent felon.
boots11234
Footballguy
Be sure to close the door on your way out.
timschochet
Footballguy
KCitons
Footballguy
If I entered your home and took up residence, would you want me to be removed from your home?
James Daulton
Footballguy
The country can't simply let anyone just hop over the border and take up residence. There has to be some kind of formal process.
Sheriff Bart
Footballguy
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