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Undocumented Immigrant Thread (3 Viewers)

boots11234 said:
Worse. However I just don’t see the support from Mexico on this so economic pressure is the next step.  

Giving Aid hasn’t helped  stem this tide. Would be great if the people fleeing, who you all say are here for jobs and are hard working, would perhaps stay in their own country and affect change there through hard work. If they want to come here I think there is a legal process to do so. I just don’t think folks who have the ability to run across the border should by default get preferential treatment over folks from the other side of the world just because they cannot swim across the ocean. 
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So we agree the Trump administration's actions will make the situation worse, not better. As to the bolded, the vast majority ARE following US immigration laws. They come to US soil (again, something a wall will not stop) and apply for asylum.  The issue is the number of asylum seekers and the current backlog.  Something hiring more immigration judges and lawyers might improve, right?  So why is the administration moving to delay the hiring??

In recent months, many judges, who oversee asylum claims and deportation cases, have retired or resigned citing interference in how they were handling cases.

“This administration has justified so many of their more draconian policies in terms of ‘We have got to lower the backlog’ and then all of a sudden they don’t have the funds to hire more immigration judges,” said Jeffrey Chase, a former immigration judge. “If their true goal is to provide fair adjudications more quickly, then this is inconsistent with that. More people will wait longer.”

Sure seems like the Trump administration is doing everything to make the problems worse, not better.  Why might that be??

 
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boots11234 said:
[scooter] said:
Really? You think that the only thing that ever happens at the border is that refugees and illegals try to cross?
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Where did i say that?  Can you please quote it.
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1. @Amused to Death pointed out that if Trump closed down the border, then it would create chaos on massive scale. (link)

2. you then attempted to counter his point by stating that the border already looks chaotic to you. (link)

If the intent of your post was to imply that closing the border would not create chaos on a massive scale, then it displays a gross level of ignorance about what transpires at the border on a daily basis.

If the intent of your post was to imply that the border already has chaos on a massive scale, then it displays a gross level of ignorance about what transpires at the border on a daily basis.

If the intent of your post was NOT to counter AtD's point, but rather to basically agree with him, then you should have just written something to the effect of, "I basically agree."

 
Please take a moment to laugh at how amazingly incompetent these people are, or at least how little they think of their supporters that they won't be able to see the obvious flaw in this logic

Sara Eisen‏ @SaraEisen

Larry Kudlow says he's looking at keeping truck lanes open to keep freight moving and not disrupt supply chains, mitigate economic fallout if President Trump closes U.S. Mexican border
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I, but, the ...

:doh:

 
TobiasFunke said:
Please take a moment to laugh at how amazingly incompetent these people are, or at least how little they think of their supporters that they won't be able to see the obvious flaw in this logic

Sara Eisen‏ @SaraEisen

Larry Kudlow says he's looking at keeping truck lanes open to keep freight moving and not disrupt supply chains, mitigate economic fallout if President Trump closes U.S. Mexican border
Click to expand...
I, but, the ...

:doh:
Click to expand...
Nothing to see here.

 
timschochet said:
Israel’s wall works at keeping out terrorists, short term. But it has also served to create economic destitution and isolation in the occupied territories of the West Bank and Gaza, which creates more terrorists in the long run. In terms of the overall security of Israel, it’s been counterproductive. 
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What would you think would happen if Israel had no walls ? 

 
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TobiasFunke said:
Please take a moment to laugh at how amazingly incompetent these people are, or at least how little they think of their supporters that they won't be able to see the obvious flaw in this logic

I, but, the ...

:doh:
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Kudlow looked like he's having a nervous breakdown.  :(

 
timschochet said:
Israel is a very small country surrounded by enemies committed to its destruction. How many of these facts do you believe apply to our situation over here? 
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None but we both know that without the fencing/wall system around Israel there would be terrorist attacks on a regular basis.  You said it was counterproductive which I disagree with.

 
stlrams said:
None but we both know that without the fencing/wall system around Israel there would be terrorist attacks on a regular basis.  You said it was counterproductive which I disagree with.
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I was specifically referring to the added border walls around Gaza and the West Bank which were originally proposed by Sharon and put in by Netanyahu. They are IMO counterproductive because they are creating real economic misery in those areas that used to depend on Israeli trade and employment. It’s a short sided policy that they will regret. But it’s really a topic for a different thread. 

 
In fact the Israeli wall helped drive Hamas towards Iran because they needed rockets, which Iran was happy to provide. So it created a bigger problem.

 
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Amused to Death said:
stlrams said:
I believe its primarily border fencing. 
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Nothing else, no electronic surveillance or other detection equipment?  Nothing at all like, say, some sort of "smart" wall?  In addition to increased border patrol, immigration judges and lawyers?  
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Top House Dem says new offer will focus on funding 'smart wall'

Now compare with Israel's wall:

Trump says he wants Israel's border wall. That means he actually wants smart fences.

(N)either Trump nor his television muse appears to realize that Israel generally does not rely upon a wall. And when it does, it is only to combat direct terrorist threats in high-risk areas, not to stop migrants. In fact, a compromise would be to give Trump the "wall" he says he wants like the one in Israel — in other words, a smart fence.

The only concrete or steel wall akin to what Trump has called for runs along less than 10 percent of the West Bank border. It was built in response to a wave of bus bombings and stabbing of Israeli civilians on the streets, after the collapse of the peace process — that is, in response to lethal force used against its citizens.

The rest of Israel’s borders are protected by fences generally 5 1/2 yards high, ground radars, electromagnetic sensors, electro-optic cameras and underground barriers that seal off terrorist tunnels from Hamas radicals in Gaza and Hezbollah terrorists in Lebanon. No comparable security challenge faces America at our southern border. The most recent State Department terrorism report concludes that “there was no credible evidence indicating that international terrorist groups have established bases in Mexico, worked with Mexican drug cartels, or sent operatives via Mexico into the United States.”

 
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JohnnyU said:
I thought more judges is a good idea, but if it isn't I just want a good idea to deal with this. 
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I've got one! And this is one you can do yourself!  Ready?

Don't vote for Trump.  His ideas have all been terrible and counterproductive and some of them are downright cruel and un-American.  Getting Trump out of the Oval Office will immediately and immeasurably improve the situation at the border and our immigation policies more broadly. So vote for the person most likely to displace Trump in the Oval Office.

YWIA.

 
JohnnyU said:
I thought more judges is a good idea, but if it isn't I just want a good idea to deal with this. 
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Well the reason I bring it  to your attention is this: although we disagree a lot, I agreed with you about more judges. Your goal and mine in this instance is essentially the same: process these people quickly, let the deserving ones stay, send the bad guys away. I’m sure we would disagree as to how many bad guys there actually are, but that doesn’t matter because we agree to let the judges decide: a fair, humane process, within our laws. 

Now the man you strongly support is publicly saying he would prefer to go around those same laws, and declaring that his goal is not to see these people receive fair judgment, but to simply keep ALL of them out: 100%. So I am asking if you support this idea. If you do support it, it would make everything you have written here seem disingenuous. If you don’t support it, then I anticipate your swift condemnation of President Trump. 

 
timschochet said:
Well the reason I bring it  to your attention is this: although we disagree a lot, I agreed with you about more judges. Your goal and mine in this instance is essentially the same: process these people quickly, let the deserving ones stay, send the bad guys away. I’m sure we would disagree as to how many bad guys there actually are, but that doesn’t matter because we agree to let the judges decide: a fair, humane process, within our laws. 

Now the man you strongly support is publicly saying he would prefer to go around those same laws, and declaring that his goal is not to see these people receive fair judgment, but to simply keep ALL of them out: 100%. So I am asking if you support this idea. If you do support it, it would make everything you have written here seem disingenuous. If you don’t support it, then I anticipate your swift condemnation of President Trump. 
Click to expand...
One could argue that he wants them to enter at ports of entry and be processed.  I also think 99%  the asylum claims are bogus and most are just for economic reasons and that's not reason for asylum.  The loop hole has to be closed. 

 
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JohnnyU said:
One could argue that he wants them to enter at ports of entry and be processed.  I also think 99%  the asylum claims are bogus and most are just for economic reasons and that's not reason for asylum.  The loop hole has to be closed. 
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The ports of entry are exactly where the backlog is.  Many asylum claims *are* bogus, but that's what the judges are for.  Maybe we need to add more judges? 

 
JohnnyU said:
One could argue that he wants them to enter at ports of entry and be processed.  I also think 99%  the asylum claims are bogus and most are just for economic reasons and that's not reason for asylum.  The loop hole has to be closed. 
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Why shouldn’t we give asylum for economic reasons? 

 
timschochet said:
Why shouldn’t we give asylum for economic reasons? 
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but under the current asylum policy economic reasons isn't a reason for asylum.  To answer your question directly, allowing anyone to come into this country for economic reasons would eventually overburden our system.  You can't just let anyone and everyone do that IMO and that's why you can't let economics be the reason for asylum.

 
JohnnyU said:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but under the current asylum policy economic reasons isn't a reason for asylum.  To answer your question directly, allowing anyone to come into this country for economic reasons would eventually overburden our system.  You can't just let anyone and everyone do that IMO and that's why you can't let economics be the reason for asylum.
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Same argument was offered when my ancestors came here. 

Oh well, if we ever reach a time when there truly isn’t room (that’s not close to now BTW) I would propose an English Premier League solution: as new people come in, some of the people already here be forced to leave. We could do it by seniority: the longer your ancestors have been here, those are the ones who would have to go first (excluding native Americans) 

 
timschochet said:
Same argument was offered when my ancestors came here. 

Oh well, if we ever reach a time when there truly isn’t room (that’s not close to now BTW) I would propose an English Premier League solution: as new people come in, some of the people already here be forced to leave. We could do it by seniority: the longer your ancestors have been here, those are the ones who would have to go first (excluding native Americans) 
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That's not a promotion/relegation solution.

It should be that if you've have been afforded opportunities and you've squandered them repeatedly, then you're gone.  Traded for a productive and contributing member of society.

 
timschochet said:
Same argument was offered when my ancestors came here. 

Oh well, if we ever reach a time when there truly isn’t room (that’s not close to now BTW) I would propose an English Premier League solution: as new people come in, some of the people already here be forced to leave. We could do it by seniority: the longer your ancestors have been here, those are the ones who would have to go first (excluding native Americans) 
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Yeah, we could send them to an island somewhere and give them a case of bottled water and a fishing pole.

 
The Z Machine said:
That's not a promotion/relegation solution.

It should be that if you've have been afforded opportunities and you've squandered them repeatedly, then you're gone.  Traded for a productive and contributing member of society.
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Gone like executed or gone like sent to some country that has a severe shortage of opportunity squanderers?

 
Per Homeland Security,  Federal agents apprehended more than 4,000 migrants crossing the border on each of two days this week.   Yep, no crises here.

 
BroadwayG said:
Roger that. What sorts of other measures are you a proponent of?
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Other than stopping trade with Mexico until they quit facilitating this mess, I would also move more military to the border, put in more cheap barbed wire until proper border fencing / wall can be built.  If they're not going to put more judges at the border to process these people, where most will be denied asylum, keep sending them back across the border to Mexico until their claim is heard.

 
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JohnnyU said:
If stopping trade with Mexico persuades them to stop migration through their country, busing them to the border, then yes, that along with other measures is worth it.
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Adam Schiff‏ @AdamSchiff 18m18 minutes ago

Closing the border for even a few days would be an economic disaster for the U.S., and catastrophic for border states like Texas and California.

You’d have to be completely reckless, or have no understanding of how U.S. businesses operate, to even suggest such a thing.

https://twitter.com/AdamSchiff/status/1113800604952883203

 
JohnnyU said:
Other than stopping trade with Mexico until they quit facilitating this mess, I would also move more military to the border, put in more cheap barbed wire until proper border fencing / wall can be built.  If they're not going to put more judges at the border to process these people, where most will be denied asylum, keep sending them back across the border to Mexico until their claim is heard. 
Click to expand...
An underrated aspect of this "controversy" is how the racism of conservatives on this issue has been laid bare. Supposedly they wanted to close the border to protect economic interests, which is why we used to have all those debates about how undocumented immigrants affect employment and wages and the larger economic picture.  And now they are willing to sabotage the economy just to keep the brown people out. Quite a pivot.  Almost makes it seem like it was never really about the economy in the first place.

 
squistion said:
Adam Schiff‏ @AdamSchiff 18m18 minutes ago

Closing the border for even a few days would be an economic disaster for the U.S., and catastrophic for border states like Texas and California.

You’d have to be completely reckless, or have no understanding of how U.S. businesses operate, to even suggest such a thing.

https://twitter.com/AdamSchiff/status/1113800604952883203
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Slash foreign aid and capture for remittances to Mexico. Just get it done

 
JohnnyU said:
If stopping trade with Mexico persuades them to stop migration through their country, busing them to the border, then yes, that along with other measures is worth it.
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Do you think any number of our auto industry companies, produce companies, grain companies, food service companies would agree?  Him going through with this would be yet another gift to his opponents as if they don't already have enough evidence of his incompetence.  

Also, can't help but notice that the position is "economy be damned" now when protecting it and all the jobs that US citizens didn't want to do was the initial reason for "border security".  Well done :thumbup:  

 
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