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Running Up The Score / Sportsmanship in HS Sports (1 Viewer)

Anarchy99

Footballguy
My's son's HS basketball team had its first game of the season against one of the best teams in the state. My son's team is middle of the road, so no one expected much of a game, especially playing on the road. Ultimately, our head coach threw in the towel by calling a time out with two minutes left in the game and benched all the starters down by 12 points. He replaced them with essentially C Team players . . . kids that normally would rarely get to play, a couple of developmental JV kids, and a freshman. For most of them, it was their first time playing in a varsity game.

The opponent had their B Team in before the timeout . . . the coach had taken his starters out a minute or so earlier and put in his second unit. When he saw the players we were sending out, he pulled everyone off the court and re-inserted his starting five. Normally in garbage time, backups and scrubs play, the team that's ahead dribbles around and takes tons of time off the clock, and kids that hardly get to play take the few shots that are attempted. Conversely, the team that is losing doesn't foul, the clock winds down, and everyone goes home.

In this game, the opposition elected to utilize a full court press at the end of the game. And when the inevitable slew of turnovers came, they either made layups or shot three pointers. Our kids didn't foul anyone, there were no hard fouls, and our kids looked grossly over matched. After they rattled off 8 quick points, our coach called timeout and started barking at the other coach asking him what he was doing. The response was basically that they knew they were going to win and were nice by not pressing during the rest of the game. And at this point they wanted to practice their press.

After another quick 8 points, our coach called timeout again, barked at the other head coach even louder, and instructed the team to pass to the wrong team intentionally and not even attempt to play defense. The other team took a bunch of shots before making one, someone on their team "stole" the intentional bad inbound pass and that kid held the ball for the last few seconds. The final deficit ended up being around 30 points.

To which I reply . . . what was the point of all that? To look better in the rankings? To inflate your players' stats to get your best guys more All State votes at the end of the season? I am at a loss on this one. In the pros, the saying is if you don't want them to run up the score play better defense. In this case, the game was decided, no real attempt was made to stop them, and the intent on our side was to get some players a taste of HS basketball. Where does this fall on the poor sportsmanship scale?

 
I wonder what the rules are regarding conceding of a match? If I was the losing coach, and I saw the other team was trying to take advantage of my scrubs by padding their lead and/or stats, I'd consider just throwing in the towel, especially if it resulted in a 2-0 victory with no recorded statistics. But then again, I can get really petty.

 
I ref a lot of HS games.  Those end of game situations can get awkward.  I've never seen one quite like that, though.

I honestly become the most biased ref ever when I feel like someone is running up the score.  Anything in a grey area starts going one way.

 
What? D move. Your coach should have put his starters back in.
He didn't want to get someone hurt. The starters had played a ton of minutes trying to catch up and were spent. He didn't really sub for them at all in the second half trying to make it a game. They have another game in a couple of days and they weren't going to win anyway. One hard foul would likely have put an end to it, but you don't really want to be the team that took out another team's player with a season ending injury.

There's a decent chance these two teams face each other again in a tournament next week, which would make for an interesting (if not physical) game.

 
As a general rule, I don't have a problem with running up the score -- as long as the other team is trying to win.

Once the other team concedes, then the classy thing to do is to put on the brakes.

This coach didn't put on the brakes. He stepped on the accelerator.

I would have instructed my players to hand the ball to the other team's players. "You want to score so badly, HERE!" Do it again and again and again.

 
Down 12 with two minutes?  I'm not clearing my bench.  Those kids will need to get minutes another day.  I can see if you are down 30, but 12 points up everything is still in play.
As I mentioned in the post just below yours, the starters were spent. The only time they caught up a few points was against the other team's rotation with basically 4 backups and their best player, which they would run for a minute or two to get their other starters a rest. They have a better and deeper team, so our reserves didn't do much and gave up chunks of points in the brief spurts they played. Our starters had been missing open looks in the 4th and were gassed from chasing the ball every possession to try to force the action. They had used up their mojo trying to cut the deficit. Last year, they had one of their best players tear an ACL in a similar situation (try to make a miracle comeback), so they decided it was best to live to fight another day.

 
If I was the opposing coach, I would not have done what he did. If I was your team’s coach, I would not have done what he did (yelling at opposing coach and instructing players to not try). I would have just used it as an opportunity to challenge my players to see what they can accomplish against a really good team. I certainly haven’t coached anything at a high level, but I’ve never concerned myself with what opposing coaches are doing. 

 
As I mentioned in the post just below yours, the starters were spent. The only time they caught up a few points was against the other team's rotation with basically 4 backups and their best player, which they would run for a minute or two to get their other starters a rest. They have a better and deeper team, so our reserves didn't do much and gave up chunks of points in the brief spurts they played. Our starters had been missing open looks in the 4th and were gassed from chasing the ball every possession to try to force the action. They had used up their mojo trying to cut the deficit. Last year, they had one of their best players tear an ACL in a similar situation (try to make a miracle comeback), so they decided it was best to live to fight another day.
Like I said, 12-point-game, everything is in play.  If you are worried about MOV don't clear the end of your bench and don't depend on the other coach to be responsible for your team's self esteem. 

32-minute games you are worried about a fatigue induced ACL snap?  You need to condition more.  

 
Teachable moment.

"Kids, the world is full of #######s, self-inflated ####s who have no perspective on life.  Get use to it now for this is true.  As to these next two minutes, to each his own.  If you are the bigger person I congratulate you.  If you are of a mind to charge one of his stars, so be it.  I will back you fully either way."

After the game if any local press comes around even before they ask any questions start out by saying:  "I would like to say, before any questions are asked, that I have no information whatsoever about Coach __ having bet on the game and needing to beat the spread, none.  Any suggestion otherwise is scurrilous and should be roundly condemned, now ....questions."

 
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for those saying to go after one of the other team's players, or any of that stuff, OP mentioned this was on the road, so you're playing one of the best teams in the state in their house. so starting some stuff will likely end badly for the road team, even getting crazy fans & parents involved. you really can only either pull your team off the floor, or get the game over with like the coach did.

then go sleep with the other coach's wife.

 
the moops said:
When I coached, I always made sure to have that one kid on the team that was a bit crazy and didn't give a ####. Just for situations like this
good thing you never needed it or you would have ended up on a liquid diet.

 
Yeah, that's a D move. If a team concedes then put your backups or their backups in and run clock etc. against them. If he wanted to work on his press he should have done that early in the game.

Our state has a running clock if a team goes up by 40 or more. Only down by 12 with 2 minutes left is a little early to call it IMO.

 
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Anarchy99 said:
After another quick 8 points, our coach called timeout again, barked at the other head coach even louder, and instructed the team to pass to the wrong team intentionally and not even attempt to play defense. The other team took a bunch of shots before making one, someone on their team "stole" the intentional bad inbound pass and that kid held the ball for the last few seconds. The final deficit ended up being around 30 points.
So the other coach was a richard for reinserting starters into the lineup to "work on the press".

BUT.....your coach was also a bit of a richard for instructing his players to intentionally turn the ball over and not play defense.

On the richard scale, I'd say the opposing coach had a higher degree of richardness than your coach - but both were on the scale.

 
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Short Corner said:
Down 12 with two minutes?  I'm not clearing my bench.  Those kids will need to get minutes another day.  I can see if you are down 30, but 12 points up everything is still in play.
Agreed. He should have been the one pressing. 2 minutes is a long time. That being said, if the other coach wasn’t pressing before and then started AFTER the C players went in it is a total ##### move. I don’t like sitting on the clock either. Let the B or C kids get action and experience running the offense/defense going all out. Just not pressing when you are up big

 
My solution is pretty basic. Don't schedule anyone outside your talent level. Don't complain when you do. 
Other than choosing to participate in mid-season tournaments and exhibition games, I don't think high school teams get a lot of say on who gets scheduled.

 
Other than choosing to participate in mid-season tournaments and exhibition games, I don't think high school teams get a lot of say on who gets scheduled.
Actually they usually get about half their schedule.  High schools in general play at most one, maybe two exhibition games/year.

 
Other than choosing to participate in mid-season tournaments and exhibition games, I don't think high school teams get a lot of say on who gets scheduled.
Actually, they do. Around here in PA, you have to schedule your own non-league games. 

I'm just curious if the OP's team and this All Star team are in the same class (A, AA, etc.). If they're not, they probably shouldn't be playing each other.

 
Actually, they do. Around here in PA, you have to schedule your own non-league games. 

I'm just curious if the OP's team and this All Star team are in the same class (A, AA, etc.). If they're not, they probably shouldn't be playing each other.
Each public high school here plays all the state schools in their division (in our case, Division 1). Those games are the same every year. The team they played is a public high school team in their division. . . again, not an all star team and not a game that was optional.

They do play in a couple of tournaments each year. Those you can pick which ones you enter. They just played in one and faced in state and out of state teams . . . and even those teams were across different divisions.

To give you an idea of how different the divisions here are, they scrimmage and enter tournaments against another local HS every year that is D-2 (our athletic director used to be their head basketball coach). We usually destroy them . . . but last year they only had 2 losses and were state champs in their division . . . and we still killed them. Maybe it's just a case of our shots fall and their shots don't, but against us they haven't been that great.

The one thing that really doesn't sit well with me is our team/coach doesn't press. Not sure why, other than we usually don't have a ton of depth and he doesn't want kids to pick up ticky tack fouls. They also don't have a ton of speed, and it helps when you have guys that can really get on the ball quickly.

When I used to coach, I would try to get a second unit that could press/trap to get some easy baskets and burn some fouls on kids that could afford it. Even if it turned into some 1 + 1's, that got the other kids a longer rest.

 
I’m shocked a fight didn’t break out.

Both coaches handled this poorly, but the opposing coach is a megadoosh. Karma will get him. 

 
Each public high school here plays all the state schools in their division (in our case, Division 1). Those games are the same every year. The team they played is a public high school team in their division. . . again, not an all star team and not a game that was optional.

They do play in a couple of tournaments each year. Those you can pick which ones you enter. They just played in one and faced in state and out of state teams . . . and even those teams were across different divisions.

To give you an idea of how different the divisions here are, they scrimmage and enter tournaments against another local HS every year that is D-2 (our athletic director used to be their head basketball coach). We usually destroy them . . . but last year they only had 2 losses and were state champs in their division . . . and we still killed them. Maybe it's just a case of our shots fall and their shots don't, but against us they haven't been that great.

The one thing that really doesn't sit well with me is our team/coach doesn't press. Not sure why, other than we usually don't have a ton of depth and he doesn't want kids to pick up ticky tack fouls. They also don't have a ton of speed, and it helps when you have guys that can really get on the ball quickly.

When I used to coach, I would try to get a second unit that could press/trap to get some easy baskets and burn some fouls on kids that could afford it. Even if it turned into some 1 + 1's, that got the other kids a longer rest.
FC presses are over rated.  You are going to blow out the teams that are inferior and get carved up by the teams that are better than you.  You won't be able to run it when it matters most, ie in the post season.

 
Anarchy99 said:
Mfter another quick 8 points, our coach called timeout again, barked at the other head coach even louder, and instructed the team to pass to the wrong team intentionally and not even attempt to play defense. The other team took a bunch of shots before making one, someone on their team "stole" the intentional bad inbound pass and that kid held the ball for the last few seconds. The final deficit ended up being around 30 points.
I glossed over this the first time.  This is inexcusable.  I would never let my son play for a coach that did this.

 
My solution is pretty basic. Don't schedule anyone outside your talent level. Don't complain when you do. 
I think there is no better way to improve quickly than to get your ### kicked, with the understanding that you are going to compete for 32 (or 40) minutes and find a way to play with your opponent even if unsuccesful which you will be more often than not.  There does a come a point of diminshing returns, however, for both sides, when the difference in level of play is too great.

 
Anarchy99 said:
To which I reply . . . what was the point of all that? 




 
Never let up, never. They haven't earned a thing despite rankings, it's a new year

I never liked it but I've seen tons of coaches do it.

We have a local coach who is awesome and he makes me chuckle the first game of the year...which he often loses. He has them not dribble for stretches. Box and hold it, without getting the board. They had bad in-bounds D and he had the guy throw it out of bounds so they could do it again. They play every sort of D and the man to man is all mis-matched. He also plays everyone and I've noticed backups earn some PT they probably wouldn't get because they showed heart, hustle, and they listen to him. I really enjoy watching it. It's become a tradition and the kids look forward to it in all the right ways. 

Onto your boy's coach yelling. Ya can't do that and he probably heard it from other local coaches he's friends with. Ya just don't do it. Anyway, he should have had the attitude "so what! Stop them!" and seen which scrubs are full of heart and determination. Maybe someone surprises. It's two minutes. Some frosh stealing it from an all state star could have done wonders for his confidence, taking a "name" to the hoop...all sorts of ways that the backups could have gotten a nice jolt of confidence

 
Anarchy99 said:
My's son's HS basketball team had its first game of the season against one of the best teams in the state. My son's team is middle of the road, so no one expected much of a game, especially playing on the road. Ultimately, our head coach threw in the towel by calling a time out with two minutes left in the game and benched all the starters down by 12 points. He replaced them with essentially C Team players . . . kids that normally would rarely get to play, a couple of developmental JV kids, and a freshman. For most of them, it was their first time playing in a varsity game.

The opponent had their B Team in before the timeout . . . the coach had taken his starters out a minute or so earlier and put in his second unit. When he saw the players we were sending out, he pulled everyone off the court and re-inserted his starting five. Normally in garbage time, backups and scrubs play, the team that's ahead dribbles around and takes tons of time off the clock, and kids that hardly get to play take the few shots that are attempted. Conversely, the team that is losing doesn't foul, the clock winds down, and everyone goes home.

In this game, the opposition elected to utilize a full court press at the end of the game. And when the inevitable slew of turnovers came, they either made layups or shot three pointers. Our kids didn't foul anyone, there were no hard fouls, and our kids looked grossly over matched. After they rattled off 8 quick points, our coach called timeout and started barking at the other coach asking him what he was doing. The response was basically that they knew they were going to win and were nice by not pressing during the rest of the game. And at this point they wanted to practice their press.

After another quick 8 points, our coach called timeout again, barked at the other head coach even louder, and instructed the team to pass to the wrong team intentionally and not even attempt to play defense. The other team took a bunch of shots before making one, someone on their team "stole" the intentional bad inbound pass and that kid held the ball for the last few seconds. The final deficit ended up being around 30 points.

To which I reply . . . what was the point of all that? To look better in the rankings? To inflate your players' stats to get your best guys more All State votes at the end of the season? I am at a loss on this one. In the pros, the saying is if you don't want them to run up the score play better defense. In this case, the game was decided, no real attempt was made to stop them, and the intent on our side was to get some players a taste of HS basketball. Where does this fall on the poor sportsmanship scale?
sounds like you're son's team needs a hack-a-shaq type player. Charles Oakley.Anthony Mason for times like this. Your coach is being respectful to the B/C players on his roster, and throwing in the towel is the classy move.but when that deebager puts his A-team back out there, you guys needed to go into full-on hack-a-thon or have the ball passed right in front of that coach where it 'accidentally' hits him square in the face. just sayin'. 

 
Internet tough guys out in force tonight.  Let's start a brawl or hurt a kid because we are getting beat in a high school basketball game?  I know some of this is macho nonsense, but also thank goodness some of you aren't given authority over high schoolers.  Brutal.  

As to the situation, I would not disrespect the game or my kids by having them not try.  Lots of variables if I put my starters back in as the losing coach or let the jv players keep playing.  What the losing coach did right was call timeouts and publically call out the other coach.  Loudly and continuously.  It won't get through to everybody but lots of the opposing players and parents are going to realize what's going on.  You can win with dignity and lose with dignity and set an example of sportsmanship.  And you can call out a Richard as a Richard without being one yourself.   

 
I don't get the hate for the opposing coach. He's preparing his team for the future. Your son's coach displayed a bad temper and a quitter's attitude. If you really wanted to quit, just have the team take a shower and load up the bus. Sometimes I wonder if this generation understands competition at all. Stop crying and teach your players how to take a loss. It'll be more useful in the real world than pouting and committing turnovers on purpose.

 
I don't get the hate for the opposing coach. He's preparing his team for the future.
He isn’t preparing them for ####.

Pressing the third-stringers of an inferior team in a game that’s already decided is utterly useless preparation for anything that would happen in a meaningful game. If the opposing coach doesn’t realize that, he’s woefully unqualified to coach basketball at any level. If he does and did it anyway, he’s a jerk.

Neither coach handled the situation well.

 
Anarchy99 said:
My's son's HS basketball team had its first game of the season ...
How does your son feel?

I remember playing on a really bad school team in the 8th grade. We had huge losses in our 1st 2 games. Those are the only 2 scores I remember, but I don't remember being embarrassed or distraught or anything the coaches did. It's just a funny 'my team was so bad' memory.

I think both coaches made poor choices.

Hope your kid has a better experience the rest of the season. 

 
I don't get the hate for the opposing coach. 
I don't understand that either. 

If you are one of the best teams in state and you are playing a middling team.... it absolutely matters if you win by 9 points or 31. Maybe it shouldn't have any affect on what happens in the rankings down the line, but it does. Also, the coach of the good team may actually be punishing his starters/team if they are only winning by 12 points. He may have thought they should have been winning by 20+. 

In the moment I understand the temptation to feel that it's all about you and the other team is purposefully rubbing in a loss but imo it's much more likely the good team is thinking 100% about winning the state title at the end of the year and you just happen to be a single step at the bottom of a staircase toward that goal. Even on very good teams there are all sort of disciplinary dynamics that go unnoticed from the outside of the team. Maybe the starters are being rewarded to pad their stats at the end of the game, but maybe they are being punished for showing up late to practice earlier in the week. Who knows?

Meh, I wouldn't take it personally. If it really was a team of scrubs vs an elite starting 5 they actually have a better chance of doing well against the press than they do playing straight up against a lineup that is much, much more talented than they are. Sounds like it was an opportunity missed to teach his scrubs how to react the full court press more than anything by the middling teams coach. And maybe that reaction is one reason his team is middling in the first place. "Hey, we should all just be going through the motions here until the timer expires!" isn't generally how successful people think.

 
I don't get the hate for the opposing coach. He's preparing his team for the future. Your son's coach displayed a bad temper and a quitter's attitude. If you really wanted to quit, just have the team take a shower and load up the bus. Sometimes I wonder if this generation understands competition at all. Stop crying and teach your players how to take a loss. It'll be more useful in the real world than pouting and committing turnovers on purpose.
This has nothing to do with this generation. This would have been a #### move when I coached HS ball (17 years ago) or when I played (25 years ago). Sure, there are different ways the  OP's son's coach could have handled it, but that is different from the complete **** that is the opposing coach. You don't sub your starters back in ever if it is a decided game unless the game is in fact too close and not decided, or injuries force your hand. And you ####### especially don't sub your starters back in against the opposing teams C team and put a full court press on. It it despicable.

 
Here's another Sportsmanship scenario... curious what people think about it:

My daughter plays Middle School 7th/8th Grade volleyball. My daughter's team is very good, went undefeated in district play. They even defeated several area non-district 9th Grade/JV teams. One match late in the season, we had an issue with the coach from an opposing team. Now it is not uncommon for parents to yell out during a player's toss/serve. It's a #### move, and it's a clearly an attempt to distract the player. I've seen parents do this since my daughter started playing many years ago. Never seen it from a coach until this game.

So this coach's team is a long shot to win. My daughter's coach typically plays the first string players in the first set. Assuming we win the first set, she will put in the second string players in the second set. The opposing coach is screaming during the serve, and she is also screaming anytime the ball goes back over the net to our team. My daughter's coach was furious. At one point in the game, my daughter's coach mentioned it to the referee. Opposing coach continued to scream. I was working the scoreboard for the game, and even I said something directly to the opposing coach. She didn't respond to me, but she quieted down for several points. She later started chirping again. Referee says that there is no rule against it.

The outcome of the match was never in question, but it was just such a ####ty thing to do. I don't understand how people think this behavior is okay. 

 
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Sweep the leg.

sounds like you're son's team needs a hack-a-shaq type player. Charles Oakley.Anthony Mason for times like this. Your coach is being respectful to the B/C players on his roster, and throwing in the towel is the classy move.but when that deebager puts his A-team back out there, you guys needed to go into full-on hack-a-thon or have the ball passed right in front of that coach where it 'accidentally' hits him square in the face. just sayin'. 

 
Unless there is some kind of history between coaches and schools that we aren't aware of, it is a very D move. 

 
Meh.  Bunch of feelings getting hurt is all I see.

Don't throw your scrubs in then cry when they get worked over like scrubs.

 
Here's another Sportsmanship scenario... curious what people think about it:

My daughter plays Middle School 7th/8th Grade volleyball. My daughter's team is very good, went undefeated in district play. They even defeated several area non-district 9th Grade/JV teams. One match late in the season, we had an issue with the coach from an opposing team. Now it is not uncommon for parents to yell out during a player's toss/serve. It's a #### move, and it's a clearly an attempt to distract the player. I've seen parents do this since my daughter started playing many years ago. Never seen it from a coach until this game.

So this coach's team is a long shot to win. My daughter's coach typically plays the first string players in the first set. Assuming we win the first set, she will put in the second string players in the second set. The opposing coach is screaming during the serve, and she is also screaming anytime the ball goes back over the net to our team. My daughter's coach was furious. At one point in the game, my daughter's coach mentioned it to the referee. Opposing coach continued to scream. I was working the scoreboard for the game, and even I said something directly to the opposing coach. She didn't respond to me, but she quieted down for several points. She later started chirping again. Referee says that there is no rule against it.

The outcome of the match was never in question, but it was just such a ####ty thing to do. I don't understand how people think this behavior is okay. 
There are no specific rules against lots of things.  There is no rule saying the coach cannot drop trou on the side and start rubbing one out.  Thee is no rule saying there shall be no release of doves during the opposing teams serve, no rules prohibiting Frisbee golfers playing through.  This comes under the general power of the official, not a specific power.  Every sport I know of empowers officials to control the game if extraordinary matters or violations of norms occurs, from assessing points to changing possessions or ejecting players and coaches to forfeiting games.  The Ref should have warned the coach and then started exercising penal assessments progressively.

 

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