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Ending the War on Drugs and Border Security (1 Viewer)

T

That one guy

Footballguy
I’ve long held the belief that the war on drugs is a failed venture, prohibition doesn’t work.  I don’t have hard stats, but I’m certain a large amount of resources are used at both the state and federal levels to facilitate this war.  Drugs crossing the southern border is one of the main sticking points when favoring the wall, to which I instinctively say “well then legalize drugs and this won’t be a profit making venture for the bad hombres any longer”

I know that’s a horribly simplistic solution, though.  As simplistic as “build a big ol’ wall and bad stuff quits happening”.  What does ending the war on drugs actually look like?  Another simplistic approach of mine is “survival of the fittest” for those who wanna partake in the hard stuff.  I’ve never been impacted by drug abuse and it’s damages to individuals and families, though, so my compassion/sympathy for fellow humans has me siding more with society must have some fail safes and procedures to battle complete access to drugs.  The resources spent on the law enforcement and legal proceedings portion of the war on drugs would undoubtedly need to be reallocated in some capacity to healthcare and education.  Are there any studies out there that attempt provide cost analysis between current war on drugs and life with legalized drugs?

I do believe in ending the war on drugs, but unfortunately that’s as far as the opinion goes for me.  Are there any supported proposals out there to support the process of ending the war and legalizing drugs?

*apologies for lack of focus here, it’s early and I haven’t had coffee yet

 
The wall does almost zero to stop drugs. The DEA and pretty much every authority agrees as most come from sea or air and those that come over the border by land are snuck in vehicles.  It was cut a small statistical amount.

I don’t agree with legalization of all drugs.  I think there should be some that are illegal and thus making it harder to obtain.  It will never be impossible. 

 
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Legalization of all drugs is an idea that sounds great in the context of ending the war on drugs but I'm not confident its a good solution.  I'd rather:

  • completely legalize marijuana nationally
  • put more oversight of big pharma and what they are putting out to market
  • education of the public and doctors
  • limit doctors on prescribing opioids
  • more treatment facilities for drug addicts and not just prisons
There's probably a much longer list but I would focus on all of these before legalizing all drugs.  But I'm with you on the War on Drugs being a pretty massive failure in most cases.

 
The libertarian in me says make all drugs legal.  However  the sympathetic Americans that most of are would be unwilling to just let the abusers die in the streets, 

 
Is the concept, though, similar to that of Republican’s healthcare replacement, a campaign slogan but no real substance?  I’ve never looked (and still haven’t even after starting this thread, so boo on me), has there been any substantial or comprehensive policy proposed toward this subject?

 
if you've seen or had "hard" drugs enslave and destroy a family member or friends etc .... you might think differently

sure, its their choice to do it ... but blowing your mind and literally living for a high isn't a functional contributing citizen and I have a hard time believing legalization of the hard drugs wouldn't literally destroy tens of millions of lives

just like the borders/barriers and security we have now stops a great deal of drugs from the south, additional barriers/security would stop more - that's just logical conclusion

 
Stealthycat said:
if you've seen or had "hard" drugs enslave and destroy a family member or friends etc .... you might think differently
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I get where you are going here.   Luckily I have not had somebody close to me addicted to hard drugs.   However, I have had dozens of alcoholics and a handful addicted to painkillers who are close to me destroy their lives through those means.  Just curious about where we draw the line on what we find acceptable to legalize and let people choose to destroy their life with and what we don't. 

I think full legalization of marijuana would be a great first step since it would give a better safer choice.  It would also take care of a lot of the prison problem too.  

I am pretty sure that there are European countries where harder drugs are legal - what are the stats on the addiction rates, etc.. there before and after legalization I wonder?

 
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Oh yeah, and a wall will do zip against drugs coming in.   Do people think immigrants are carrying all the drugs across the boarder in backpacks or something?

 
KarmaPolice said:
However, I have had dozens of alcoholics and a handful addicted to painkillers who are close to me destroy their lives through those means.  Just curious about where we draw the line on what we find acceptable to legalize and let people choose to destroy their life with and what we don't. 
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good question and potentially a very good discussion

https://drugabuse.com/12-addictive-drugs/

Amphetamines

Benzodiazepines such as Valium and Xanakick.

Methadone harder to withdraw from.

GHB (gamma hydroxybutyrate) is a CNS depressant

Nicotine

Alcohol

Cocaine

Crack

Crystal Meth

Heroin

MDMA, also known as ecstasy or Molly

OxyContin

of those listed, nicotine and alcohol are what we allow in society for recreation right ? With restrictions - like age and with alcohol driving etc.

I can argue nicotine which is smoking is of 100% zero value because it has zero positives other than a high. Right? there are studies that a glass of wine or shot of whiskey is actually medically GOOD for a body.  in excess it isn't of course but for people who want 1 beer a week, alcohol isn't a big deal. Very few people smoke only 1 cigarette a week, right?

I actually am in favor of banning cigarettes, I see no value in them. Zero.

Where does society draw a line? I think at the point a drug becomes what people live for, when a drug become an absolutely have to have, when a drug is so addicting that most who turn to it cannot turn from it and when the social costs are so high ............. then it needs to probably be removed. Tobacco is that ..... and you could probably argue maybe alcohol is too but what % of the people who drink abuse it and/or can't quit it ?  Isn't it like 90% of smokers once they start can't quit ?

 
People really want to legalize hard drugs? 

I can see decriminalizing so that users aren't just thrown in jail and can get some help.  But we should not be rewarding the manufacturers, suppliers and distributors with legitimacy. 

I think we should start the stand down on the war on drugs my fixing the scheduling.   How cannabis and psilocybin are schedule I drugs while coke and meth are schedule II is just insanity.   Completely, unjustifiably, insane... yet that's how it's been for decades.

 
Stealthycat said:
I can argue nicotine which is smoking is of 100% zero value because it has zero positives other than a high. Right?
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Nicotine has been shown to fight Alzhiemers and other cognitive diseases.  It's a stimulant and increases attention and memory and stuff.

 
cockroach said:
Nicotine has been shown to fight Alzhiemers and other cognitive diseases.  It's a stimulant and increases attention and memory and stuff.
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To say nothing of the fact that the entire reason we understand neurotransmitters is because of research on nicotine.

 
cockroach said:
Nicotine has been shown to fight Alzhiemers and other cognitive diseases.  It's a stimulant and increases attention and memory and stuff. 
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I might consider nicotine by some of deliver other than smoking - but cigarettes literally have killed and will kill millions of people, even though who don't smoke and the cost to society could pay for a Wall :)    but seriously there is no justification for smoking. There just isn't

Cigarette smoking is responsible for more than 480,000 deaths per year in the United States, including more than 41,000 deaths resulting from secondhand smoke exposure. This is about one in five deaths annually, or 1,300 deaths every day. On average, smokers die 10 years earlier than nonsmokers.

Cost of Smoking-Related Illness. Smoking-related illness in the United States costs more than $300 billion each year, including: Nearly $170 billion for direct medical care for adults. More than $156 billion in lost productivity, including $5.6 billion in lost productivity due to secondhand smoke exposure.May 4, 2018

CDC - Fact Sheet - Economic Trends in Tobacco - Smoking & Tobacco ...

Lung Cancer Risks for Non-smokers. As many as 20% of people who die from lung cancer in the United States every year have never smoked or used any other form of tobacco_Oct 31, 2018

 
Stealthycat said:
if you've seen or had "hard" drugs enslave and destroy a family member or friends etc .... you might think differently

sure, its their choice to do it ... but blowing your mind and literally living for a high isn't a functional contributing citizen and I have a hard time believing legalization of the hard drugs wouldn't literally destroy tens of millions of lives

just like the borders/barriers and security we have now stops a great deal of drugs from the south, additional barriers/security would stop more - that's just logical conclusion

  
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if you have seen guns or gun violence enslave and destroy a family member or friends you might think differently brohans sure it is someones choice to be armed but blowing someones brain literally out of their head living for a high is not a functioning contributing citizen and i have a hard time believing that legalization of assault weapons isnt literally destorying tens of millions of lives just like the reasonable weapon restrictions we have now stops a great deal of gun related violence additional laws and restrictions would stop even more thats just a logical conclusion take that to the bank brohans 

 
Stealthycat said:
I might consider nicotine by some of deliver other than smoking - but cigarettes literally have killed and will kill millions of people, even though who don't smoke and the cost to society could pay for a Wall :)    but seriously there is no justification for smoking. There just isn't

Cigarette smoking is responsible for more than 480,000 deaths per year in the United States, including more than 41,000 deaths resulting from secondhand smoke exposure. This is about one in five deaths annually, or 1,300 deaths every day. On average, smokers die 10 years earlier than nonsmokers.

Cost of Smoking-Related Illness. Smoking-related illness in the United States costs more than $300 billion each year, including: Nearly $170 billion for direct medical care for adults. More than $156 billion in lost productivity, including $5.6 billion in lost productivity due to secondhand smoke exposure.May 4, 2018

CDC - Fact Sheet - Economic Trends in Tobacco - Smoking & Tobacco ...

Lung Cancer Risks for Non-smokers. As many as 20% of people who die from lung cancer in the United States every year have never smoked or used any other form of tobacco_Oct 31, 2018
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Is it the cigarettes, or is it the people? ;)  

 
SWC said:
if you have seen guns or gun violence enslave and destroy a family member or friends you might think differently brohans sure it is someones choice to be armed but blowing someones brain literally out of their head living for a high is not a functioning contributing citizen and i have a hard time believing that legalization of assault weapons isnt literally destorying tens of millions of lives just like the reasonable weapon restrictions we have now stops a great deal of gun related violence additional laws and restrictions would stop even more thats just a logical conclusion take that to the bank brohans 
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a material object in your hand or closet isn't an addition - to compare that is silly

substance abuse and addition isn't even in the same discussion

 
KarmaPolice said:
Is it the cigarettes, or is it the people? ;)  
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actually you have an excellent point

in general there are a lot of people who, for the most part are not the most intelligent people and I don't mean IS. I'm not sure why ...... genetics, by choice, combination of it all I imagine ............... but I've seen it all my life where people think they can do drugs because its fun, alluring, they just want the experience, to be cool, to impress someone ........... whatever the reason, and once they get that one high, its addiction and they cannot escape because the drugs have that much control.

I've never smoked, never done any illegal drugs, have taken very very few medications in my life, never dipped or chewed ...... why? I know I'd like it. A lot. To the point I probably couldn't quit although in my mind I'm sure I could. Everyone says that don't they?

So yes, its the people choosing .......... but it's the availability of a "something" so strong that people can't stop it that we can somewhat control .

 
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There has to be some sort of border security..a guy I know and respect is an FBI agent and he said talk to the men who work down there..those are the people we should be listening to.

 
Da Guru said:
There has to be some sort of border security..a guy I know and respect is an FBI agent and he said talk to the men who work down there..those are the people we should be listening to.
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Literally nobody is against better border security.

 
sho nuff said:
Literally nobody is against better border security.
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I heard a guy on POTUS radio talking about a ballard wall?  Maybe I got the name wrong but was a Dem and said he would be OK with that.

 
I'd be ok with legalizing Marijuana while keeping a ban on the harder stuff.  Get the low end pot offenders out of jail and let the DEA focus on the bigger things.  

 
Thing is, we already have empirical data showing that treating drugs as a health issue rather than a criminal one is demonstrably better for society.  Portugal decriminalized all drugs 10 years ago, invested in a treatment system for problem users and addicts, and drug abuse fell by half.  

https://www.forbes.com/sites/erikkain/2011/07/05/ten-years-after-decriminalization-drug-abuse-down-by-half-in-portugal/#29316b273001

As far as legalization goes, it really isn’t anyone’s place to say what a user puts in their own body, so long as it doesn’t affect anyone else.  It’s not my place to tell someone they can’t consume caffeine, or painkillers, or alcohol, or any number of harmful substances.  

People are going to do drugs either way; it can be left to violent, costly black markets and an expansive prison system, or peaceful over the counter markets and a conscious healthcare system.  

 
Max Power said:
I'd be ok with legalizing Marijuana while keeping a ban on the harder stuff.  Get the low end pot offenders out of jail and let the DEA focus on the bigger things.  
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Then our drug related problems will persist. As Ren said, there are models out there that show us how to improve our situation but so many people just won’t accept it. Even funnier is many of them consider themselves conservatives.

 
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