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Hankmoody

Official 2019 Oakland (?) Raiders Thread

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Again just highlights and stats but I think my fear of the dynamics of T. Williams as our #1 WR and then..... uh, not sure, who is #2 on paper? Grant? (I know he is.... being a jerk here)  Seems to be really holding the offense back. I can't say if it is that Williams is really best suited as a #2 or if it is we just don't have anyone that can really fill that #2 spot after him. 

If Crabtree isn't toast... then he could be that #2. I would rather keep Doss and cut Grant honestly. Nelson has a spot with that speed. Renfrow isn't going anywhere but he also has a spot as that possession type. Harris is our return guy and I love Doss's upside as he learns the craft. 

Grant? He could be decent as a #3 but if we need a roster spot to bring Crabtree on (and again, I haven't seen him so I have no idea if he was just not a good fit in the Cardinal young kid offense or if he just doesn't have anything left anymore but if he is close to the Crabtree we had before he left, then I am game!) then Grant is my choice to go. 

If we don't have an easy fix like that then I think we need to think run first and establish that then use that to allow the passing game to open up. 

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5 minutes ago, Chadstroma said:

Cut Doss?

No.   No.   No.   Keep the young talent with upside.    Even if Crabtree would help the O a little this season,  adding a vet on the downside of his career doesn't fit the one to two year plan of rebuilding.   

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15 hours ago, LawFitz said:

- Carr is only good with a dominant OL and above average RB/WR; otherwise, he's the same pumpkin Jeff George was - been saying this for YEARS

 

The first part of that is absolutely true until proven otherwise. Carr seems to have no ability to fashion or create anything on his own. He needs to have a very clean pocket, running backs who can move the chains and wide outs who can get open. Improvisation is not his thing. He's like the anti-Mahomes in that regard. And yeah nobody really comes close to Mahomes in that category but Carr is about as close to 180-degree from him as you can get.

 

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2 hours ago, Chadstroma said:

Cut Doss?

Cut Grant?

 

 

.... replied to the message on page 17 before reading replies on page 18... 

Edited by kaso

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Ryan Grant has been released.

No corresponding move announced yet, that I have seen.

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23 minutes ago, kaso said:

Ryan Grant has been released.

No corresponding move announced yet, that I have seen.

LB Justin Phillips brought up from the practice squad.

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39 minutes ago, kaso said:

Ryan Grant has been released.

No corresponding move announced yet, that I have seen.

Keelan Doss time.

Thankfully they got that kid back or it would be another absolutely Grusome moment, considering he was cut to start the season in order to keep Grant and Tony C on the roster.

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6 hours ago, LawFitz said:

Keelan Doss time.

Thankfully they got that kid back or it would be another absolutely Grusome moment, considering he was cut to start the season in order to keep Grant and Tony C on the roster.

Maybe it’s more like "Hunter Renfrow time"  

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1 hour ago, joey said:

Maybe it’s more like "Hunter Renfrow time"  

Would love to see Hunter step up and prove that promise. 

He's been surprisingly shaky in the targets I've seen him get -- not cleanly catching the ball, and not really gaining separation or fighting for position in the slot. 

Maybe some of that's on Carr not looking his way or delivering clean balls, haven't studied too much tape in this regard. But with the corps we have, we need production from other guys besides Waller (who is lights out) and Williams (who I think has delivered, just not been consistent or elite).

Doss might help this -- he also might need others to step up with him to clear space. 

Bottom line is that we definitely need our WRs to do better along with Carr.

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2 minutes ago, Stompin' Tom Connors said:

He's been surprisingly shaky in the targets I've seen him get -- not cleanly catching the ball, and not really gaining separation or fighting for position in the slot.

I've watched because I have interests in Waller and Jacobs. Renfrow looks really shaky just catching the ball. Not good if you're a slot guy. 

Edited by rockaction

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9 hours ago, Stompin' Tom Connors said:

Maybe some of that's on Carr not looking his way or delivering clean balls, haven't studied too much tape in this regard. But with the corps we have, we need production from other guys besides Waller (who is lights out) and Williams (who I think has delivered, just not been consistent or elite).

I'm putting the the blame for the bolded part on Carr.  He has not looked his direction enough the last two weeks and refuses to push the ball down the field.  Guys are not always going to be open by five yards and you have to give your receivers a chance to make a play sometimes.

Edited by ICON211

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3 hours ago, ICON211 said:

I'm putting the the blame for the bolded part on Carr.  He has not looked his direction enough the last two weeks and refuses to push the ball down the field.  Guys are not always going to be open by five yards and you have to give your receivers a chance to make a play sometimes.

Reading between the lines based on the press conference yesterday, the removal of Brown has forced Williams to play in a lot of different looks and spots then originally planned for him.  I think this inconsistency will continue until a WR2 emerges in the Z and allows for Williams to be the WR he is more tailored for.  

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17 minutes ago, bombjack said:

Good win. Ugly Burfict situation.

Currently sitting in a wild card spot!

Desperately needed win to show this team that they can go out and win. Yes, this isn't the Chiefs or Pats, but these kind of moral wins are just as important to keep this team staying the course and keep fighting hard through our continued rebuild.

Burfict situation is a disaster. I was wrong about the guy being past prime, he has been by far our best LB and actually was bringing a high level of play, and his veteran knowledge was great as he directed plays. And I get the team wanting to make a statement with physicality and intimidation -- you can't be a Raider fan if you don't get that element of the game as it is core to our ethos.

But it can't come at the price of safety, and this hit was absolutely inexcusable and entirely avoidable. As much as I regret losing a guy who is a key cog to our D, will be fine with whatever the league metes out. That was out and out stupid.

And way too early to even be looking at playoff positioning -- we go 8-8 this year and I'll be stoked.

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3 minutes ago, Stompin' Tom Connors said:

But it can't come at the price of safety, and this hit was absolutely inexcusable and entirely avoidable. As much as I regret losing a guy who is a key cog to our D, will be fine with whatever the league metes out. That was out and out stupid.

 

 

sounds like he's suspended the rest of the season. Wow.

repeat offender, I guess.

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So if Burfict is banned without pay, just curious as to what happens with the $2M he's contracted to get this season?

Will be interesting to see what the Raiders do with Burfict next year. He was clearly worth signing as he proved his play was at a high level. Guy was our team captain, after all.

But risk is also without question there in terms of no telling if he'll thug out once again.

Tell you one thing, really hope Incognito doesn't regress to his previous ways either.

Man, this team and drama....

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1 hour ago, joey said:

 

sounds like he's suspended the rest of the season. Wow.

repeat offender, I guess.

I didn't see the hit but man, that sounds excessive. Are they going to suspend the Tampa Bay player that slobberknocked Peters as he crossed the goaline yesterday? Or the guy who knocked Josh Allen into next week? I get player safety but the officiating this season has been so inconsistent on every level, the game is getting unwatchable. 

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1 hour ago, joey said:

 

sounds like he's suspended the rest of the season. Wow.

repeat offender, I guess.

This is some bull#### right here. The entire season??? 

Chalk up another WTF NFL precedent against the Raiders.

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23 minutes ago, LawFitz said:

This is some bull#### right here. The entire season??? 

Chalk up another WTF NFL precedent against the Raiders.

You're insane if you think the NFL is targeting the Raiders. Go back and look at that douchbag's history. He shouldn't be in today's NFL.

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I don't like what it means for the Raiders nor for my fantasy teams, but Burfict kind of deserves what he gets. 

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12 minutes ago, rockaction said:

I don't like what it means for the Raiders nor for my fantasy teams, but Burfict kind of deserves what he gets. 

this is where I'm at. Burfict was a VERY welcome addition to a low tier Raiders LB corp, that has already been thinned by injuries. And now this.

But when you play as dirty and "outside the lines" as Burfict has for years and years, you get what you deserve.

Hey, maybe Burfict cost the Raiders in TWO ways...by getting suspended this year, and by knocking Antonio Brown into CTE-ville with his hit a few years back.

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I've gone back and forth on the Burfict suspension a few times now. 

I'm ok with the league and it's stance on player safety.   Burfict led with his helmet and the offensive player was on his knees, while trying to get up and make a move forward.  The hit wasn't required, and exceeded what is written in the rule book.   Penalty is acceptable... new rules in the NFL allow for New York to get involved to decide if an ejection is warranted, and they saw enough on the replay.  Fine.  No argument on it when looking at specific play from the league perspective.

It does start to get dicey for me when there isn't an equal stance applied across the league.   Sure Burfict is a repeat offender, ok.  That can be used to validate the length of his suspension in this case.   But if safety is important, then the hit on Rosen, Peters, and the physical chocking of OBJ from this week alone need to be addressed by the league office.   1 game, 2 games, 4... doesn't matter.  But pure silence on worse acts and more violent hits which left other players actually injured is pretty poor behavior on the league side of things. 

Purely as a Raider fan, I'm worried by the loss of Burfict on the field.   The LB core was thin to begin with after the loss of Lee.   And Burfict had proved to be well worth the signing.  A leader on the field and in control of the D as a whole.   There is a definite gap there that will need to be addressed.   Tahir Whitehead will need to step into that role quickly to limit the negative impact.

But more importantly how about that win?!  A Win on the road to get to 2-2 and the start of a long 10 day, 2 game, 2 continent, round trip is a great way to start!!  I enjoyed the play calling, hard nosed running by Jacobs, the end around by Trevor Davis, and an amazing day by Erik Harris capped off by the pick 6.   A full team win.  

 

 

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2 hours ago, geneyus said:

You're insane if you think the NFL is targeting the Raiders. Go back and look at that douchbag's history. He shouldn't be in today's NFL.

Burfict deserves to be suspended but if he gets a year, Myles Garret deserves a couple of games for his late hit on an exposed QB resulting in an injured ankle.  Jonathan Jones should get 2 games for targeting the head of Josh Allen.  Barnett should get 2 games for the helmet-to-helmet hit on Williams.  If the NFL wants to clean up the game, they need to be consistent and not give certain teams passes.   

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1 hour ago, DocHolliday said:

Burfict deserves to be suspended but if he gets a year, Myles Garret deserves a couple of games for his late hit on an exposed QB resulting in an injured ankle.  Jonathan Jones should get 2 games for targeting the head of Josh Allen.  Barnett should get 2 games for the helmet-to-helmet hit on Williams.  If the NFL wants to clean up the game, they need to be consistent and not give certain teams passes.   

Exactly, otherwise you start looking clueless like the NHL. As Micah Hyde said, there's no way anyone on Buffalo would still be in the game if same hit happened to Brady.

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On 9/25/2019 at 1:04 PM, kaso said:

Ryan Grant has been released.

No corresponding move announced yet, that I have seen.

Just didn't bring anything special to the team. When earlier we were talking about Crabtree... he was the guy I targeted for cutting to make room. Looks like with Burfict suspended we will have another roster spot. Not sure who is out their LB wise we could grab but if no one worthwhile then maybe kick the tires on Crabtree? 

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3 hours ago, DocHolliday said:

Burfict deserves to be suspended but if he gets a year, Myles Garret deserves a couple of games for his late hit on an exposed QB resulting in an injured ankle.  

Due to my early season football appetite, I actually watched the first half of the Browns/Jets.  Garret had a blatant late hit and penalty before the blatant late hit that injured Simeon.  I was surprised he wasn't booted from the game because both hits looked like he was trying to inflict physical damage on the QB with no concern about the penalty.  Just had a bad look to it.

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I think there is a high likelihood that Burfict will win a reduction and play again this year. This was more about a statement being made by the NFL and about his history of similar hits. 

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20 minutes ago, Chadstroma said:

Not sure who is out their LB wise we could grab

How about Cabinda?

He not only seemed to play fairly well in preseason (had ups and downs but mostly ups), and was also utilized as the playcaller in preseason so should know our D scheme and can rotate into the MLB spot well.

Have a feeling Brandon Marshall is available if we still want him too.

Manti T'eo is another ILB I can think of.

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6 hours ago, geneyus said:

You're insane if you think the NFL is targeting the Raiders. Go back and look at that douchbag's history. He shouldn't be in today's NFL.

Right on. Watch this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y46p1qKapjA

Some talking head said he should be suspended "indefinitely." Couldn't argue with that either.

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On 9/22/2019 at 5:18 PM, Ed Wood said:

No shame losing to the Chiefs and Vikings (tho I remember when we used to beat the Vikes 32-14) but it looks like they're coming home 1-6. This team, obviously, has a loooooooong way to go to be regularly competitive on the road.

Ahem, I stand corrected on the above statement--all except the "regularly" part. That remains to be seen.

That was a genuine article football team yesterday. Carr actually threw the ball more than 20 yards a couple times, the D finally came up with a play to choke the life pretty much out of a team and Jacobs is a runner you can count on to close out games.

I don't see em beating the Bears (unless the D can hold them to under 10 points) but perhaps there's a glimmer of hope. I think the Raiders were going right over, the Bears not until Friday. I think that's a BIG mistake.

I flip flop each week on which side is the weakest unit. This week is the D. Harris' pick was the team's first. They have two fumble recoveries to go with that and five sacks. (Bears 4-4-16.)

I've got the over/under on the number of Mack stories this week at 112. Gruden will be thrilled.

 

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1 hour ago, Ed Wood said:

Ahem, I stand corrected on the above statement--all except the "regularly" part. That remains to be seen.

That was a genuine article football team yesterday. Carr actually threw the ball more than 20 yards a couple times, the D finally came up with a play to choke the life pretty much out of a team and Jacobs is a runner you can count on to close out games.

I don't see em beating the Bears (unless the D can hold them to under 10 points) but perhaps there's a glimmer of hope. I think the Raiders were going right over, the Bears not until Friday. I think that's a BIG mistake.

I flip flop each week on which side is the weakest unit. This week is the D. Harris' pick was the team's first. They have two fumble recoveries to go with that and five sacks. (Bears 4-4-16.)

I've got the over/under on the number of Mack stories this week at 112. Gruden will be thrilled.

 

The NFL and media are going to rub the Raiders nose in their stupidity this week.   And then Mack and the Chicago D is going to crush the Raiders.  Mack will have more sacks and caused fumbles than the Raiders D.  

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1 hour ago, DocHolliday said:

The NFL and media are going to rub the Raiders nose in their stupidity this week.   And then Mack and the Chicago D is going to crush the Raiders.  Mack will have more sacks and caused fumbles than the Raiders D.  

So what if they do?

If anything, this team has shown pretty damned impressive resilience in the face of more than their fair share of mayhem and madness and plain bad luck.

They actually had a super solid draft. They weathered the scrutiny and circus of Hard Knocks. They lost their best receiver (and a guy who would have surely turned an improved offense into a veritable threat of an offense) in the most ridiculous and tumultuous way, turning one of the better WR corps into one of the thinner ones. They lost the spark and fire of our secondary in Abrams, turning what looked like a fearsome starting secondary into one that was way more shaky. Then we lost one of the four LBs we actually chose to keep, then another one to sheer stupidity. We started the season without two of our starting guards, one of whom we lost for the year in training camp. We have the worst travel schedules in the league again, and are twice punished by a ridiculous early season road trip. We are victims of endless doubters, haters, nay-sayers, and negative nellies.

And you know what?

We're 2-2.  And we're still fighting.

So what if they lose to the Bears in a "home" game 5,345 miles away.

So what if they lose to a team whose star DE was once ours? 

Since when do we care what the media or anyone else says about us.

We're Raiders, dammit.

And as long as this team keeps fighting and not giving up, it doesn't matter if we beat the Bears or not.

It just doesn't matter.

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A lot of people in here must have started watching the NFL this season if you don't think Vontaze has earned this suspension. Absolutely and unquestionably.

Here's a refresher about him:

December 2018: Fined $53,482 for lowering his helmet against Denver’s Andy Janovich

October 2018: Fined $112,000 for hit to head area against Pittsburgh’s Antonio Brown and James Conner

March 2018: Suspended 4 games for violating the league’s PEDs policy, forfeiting $1,839,361

October 2017: Fined $12,154 for kicking Pittsburgh’s Roosevelt Nix

August 2017: Suspended 3 games for hit on a defenseless receiver vs. Kansas City, forfeiting $1,400,469

November 2016: Fined $12,154 for unsportsmanlike conduct against Buffalo

October 2016: Fined $75,000 for stepping on New England’s LeGarrette Blount

January 2016: Suspended 3 games for excessive hit to a defenseless receiver (Antonio Brown), forfeiting $502,941

December 2015: Fined $69,454 for combination of unsportsmanlike conduct plays against Pittsburgh

October 2014: Fined $25,000 for ankle-twisting against Carolina’s Cam Newton and Greg Olsen

November 2013: Fined $21,000 for spearing the Jets’ Stephen Hill

September 2013: Fined $31,000 total for two incidents vs. the Packers

Link with video of each incident

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9 hours ago, Stompin' Tom Connors said:

So what if they do?

If anything, this team has shown pretty damned impressive resilience in the face of more than their fair share of mayhem and madness and plain bad luck.

They actually had a super solid draft. They weathered the scrutiny and circus of Hard Knocks. They lost their best receiver (and a guy who would have surely turned an improved offense into a veritable threat of an offense) in the most ridiculous and tumultuous way, turning one of the better WR corps into one of the thinner ones. They lost the spark and fire of our secondary in Abrams, turning what looked like a fearsome starting secondary into one that was way more shaky. Then we lost one of the four LBs we actually chose to keep, then another one to sheer stupidity. We started the season without two of our starting guards, one of whom we lost for the year in training camp. We have the worst travel schedules in the league again, and are twice punished by a ridiculous early season road trip. We are victims of endless doubters, haters, nay-sayers, and negative nellies.

And you know what?

We're 2-2.  And we're still fighting.

So what if they lose to the Bears in a "home" game 5,345 miles away.

So what if they lose to a team whose star DE was once ours? 

Since when do we care what the media or anyone else says about us.

We're Raiders, dammit.

And as long as this team keeps fighting and not giving up, it doesn't matter if we beat the Bears or not.

It just doesn't matter.

Well I'm sick of hearing how stupid the Raiders are because the Raiders make it easy.    Mack.   Cooper.   AB.   Burfict.   Gruden.   Davis.  They bring it on to themselves.   Horrible draft picks.  Dumb free agent moves.  Trading away their best players on D and O.   

But, the team is playing much better than expected and the last draft was solid.  If the Raiders don't want to get burned, quit playing with fire like AB and Burfict.   If the Raiders want to build a good, young team over a few years, quit trading away young talent.  Quit reaching on draft day and think fre agent moves through.   There was an almost 100% chance Burfict was suspended for multiple games this season.   Relying on players that are unreliable is not a way to rebuild.  

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2 hours ago, DocHolliday said:

Well I'm sick of hearing how stupid the Raiders are because the Raiders make it easy.    Mack.   Cooper.   AB.   Burfict.   Gruden.   Davis.  They bring it on to themselves.   Horrible draft picks.  Dumb free agent moves.  Trading away their best players on D and O.   

But, the team is playing much better than expected and the last draft was solid.  If the Raiders don't want to get burned, quit playing with fire like AB and Burfict.   If the Raiders want to build a good, young team over a few years, quit trading away young talent.  Quit reaching on draft day and think free agent moves through.   There was an almost 100% chance Burfict was suspended for multiple games this season.   Relying on players that are unreliable is not a way to rebuild.  

I simply cannot beat the dead horse of Mack and Cooper any longer. There are two camps -- we traded away our best players needlessly, and those trades needed to be done to help overhaul the team in the long run. You are clearly in the first camp, I am in the second. No amount of bringing this up over again is going to change anyone's mind about this, so -- please -- would love if we could move on from the harping about it and just agree to evaluate these trades when they should be evaluated -- in 2021 when we see how all these draft picks turn out and fare on the field, and what this team looks like then overall.

AB and Burfict? Hard to argue that these (along with Incognito) were anything but dicey gambles. I have to admit that when all these signings were made I was way less concerned about AB then the other two, who I thought were ticking time bombs waiting to explode. Turns out AB was the most volatile.

The sad thing about Burfict was how well he was playing -- how much he was contributing on the field, as a leader, etc. It all went up in a puff of smoke with one stupid move. I am more angry at Burfict for not realizing how much was at stake and how much his trajectory had changed and the potential that lay ahead than I am angry at Gruden and Mayock for bringing him in to fill a very needed gap in our D. It sucks to lose Burfict to such blatant stupidity and inability to control himself, but there was also some risk mitigation in the contract structure and term.

That said, hard to argue that the right way to build is not through unreliable players. Goes against the whole "high character" messaging Mayock was spewing during the draft.

Burfict seemed to be reliable and had turned the corner and was being a leader for these young players...until he wasn't. And in retrospect, guess it was entirely predictable and we should have gone another way.

All eyes on Incognito now....

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12 hours ago, Chaka said:

A lot of people in here must have started watching the NFL this season...

Unnecessary condescension.

Perhaps some of us have been watching through the entirety of your Burfect behavior recap and can think it's still overkill to suspend him for the entire season. 6-8 games, I would not argue with. Whole season reeks of Raiderade to me.

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As strange as this may seem, I'm almost more focused on Burfict's in-game ejection than the season long suspension.

Hard to compare the season long ban as no one has quite the list of infractions that Burfict has (maybe Suh has the next most, but not sure his list is as long?).

So not confident I can call the NFL's punishment unduly harsh without a more apples-to-apples comparison where they meted out much lighter justice for the same number and severity of infractions and fines.

We do, however, have plenty of apples-to-apples comparisons of similar hits -- some that occurred the same day as Burfict's -- that did not result in an ejection. Hell, some didn't even get flagged at all. And some were way worse in terms of intent (the OBJ choke slam as an example).

So going forward, I would hold the NFL to upholding the same standard of in-game ejection for a similar hit. 

Knowing how great the NFL is at consistency in these regards, not holding my breath.

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1 hour ago, LawFitz said:

Unnecessary condescension.

Perhaps some of us have been watching through the entirety of your Burfect behavior recap and can think it's still overkill to suspend him for the entire season. 6-8 games, I would not argue with. Whole season reeks of Raiderade to me.

If you think Burfict's career record hasn't earned him a season long suspension (and it will be reduced on appeal) then I think you are looking at the situation exclusively through Silver and Black tinted lenses.

Or you just started watching football this year.

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2 hours ago, Chaka said:

If you think Burfict's career record hasn't earned him a season long suspension (and it will be reduced on appeal) then I think you are looking at the situation exclusively through Silver and Black tinted lenses.

Or you just started watching football this year.

I think you're making unnecessary presumptive (and tacitly offensive) statements about others.

Been following Burfict his entire career after being surprised to see him go undrafted. He's a brute and deserves to be severely punished, but the entire season is too much. I try hard not to be a Raider-lens viewer. I'd say the same if he played for anyone else, but I strongly suspect that sans Raiderade, his suspension would've been 8 games, tops. Don't @ me.

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Just now, LawFitz said:

I think you're making unnecessary presumptive (and tacitly offensive) statements about others.

Been following Burfict his entire career after being surprised to see him go undrafted. He's a brute and deserves to be severely punished, but the entire season is too much. I try hard not to be a Raider-lens viewer. I'd say the same if he played for anyone else, but I strongly suspect that sans Raiderade, his suspension would've been 8 games, tops. Don't @ me.

Sorry for offending you but maybe lighten up a tinge. I appreciate you are making an effort to avoid being passively hostile but not everything is couches in hostility. 

I could not disagree more strongly about the duration of Burfict's suspension. He has lost something like $4 mil over his career to fines and suspensions. Missed multiple games in multiple seasons due to his actions on and off the field and he still hasn't adapted. Anything less than 12 games would be a tacit "Well, what are you going to do?" from the league.

And, remember, it is a virtual lock that the suspension gets diminished on appeal so, ultimately you are going to get the suspension length you feel is appropriate and the league has effectively put everyone on notice.

But if Burfict comes back and does it again, and he will, I absolutely support an indefinite suspension. Heckuva player but dude simply refuses to learn. 

 

 

 

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The list of history that Chaka presented makes it pretty easy for me to get on board with a season long suspension. I don't see anything anti Raider about it. Dude is a f'ing menace and needs to be dealt with. What happens when he finally breaks someone's neck and paralyzes someone? The NFL needs to protect themselves and show that they tried to deal with this guy as strongly as they could. If the union wants to appeal and get him reinstated early then they can explain to fans and family of the player he's eventually going to permanently disable why he still deserved a right to work after repeated attempts to injure his opponents. 

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6 hours ago, Chaka said:

Sorry for offending you but maybe lighten up a tinge. 

Eh, not trying to be overly sensitive, just calling out a spade. Just because someone disagrees with your take doesn't mean they haven't watched football or are operating only from a Raider centric view, as you've stated. Maybe you should consider that perhaps this situation isn't as black and white as you see it, and ease off a bit on the gas.

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20 hours ago, Stompin' Tom Connors said:

I simply cannot beat the dead horse of Mack and Cooper any longer. There are two camps -- we traded away our best players needlessly, and those trades needed to be done to help overhaul the team in the long run. You are clearly in the first camp, I am in the second. No amount of bringing this up over again is going to change anyone's mind about this, so -- please -- would love if we could move on from the harping about it and just agree to evaluate these trades when they should be evaluated -- in 2021 when we see how all these draft picks turn out and fare on the field, and what this team looks like then overall.

AB and Burfict? Hard to argue that these (along with Incognito) were anything but dicey gambles. I have to admit that when all these signings were made I was way less concerned about AB then the other two, who I thought were ticking time bombs waiting to explode. Turns out AB was the most volatile.

The sad thing about Burfict was how well he was playing -- how much he was contributing on the field, as a leader, etc. It all went up in a puff of smoke with one stupid move. I am more angry at Burfict for not realizing how much was at stake and how much his trajectory had changed and the potential that lay ahead than I am angry at Gruden and Mayock for bringing him in to fill a very needed gap in our D. It sucks to lose Burfict to such blatant stupidity and inability to control himself, but there was also some risk mitigation in the contract structure and term.

That said, hard to argue that the right way to build is not through unreliable players. Goes against the whole "high character" messaging Mayock was spewing during the draft.

Burfict seemed to be reliable and had turned the corner and was being a leader for these young players...until he wasn't. And in retrospect, guess it was entirely predictable and we should have gone another way.

All eyes on Incognito now....

You can wish away the Mack and Cooper talk but it's not going to end by Raider fans or the media for years.   Every week that Mack and Cooper help their teams to victory reminds everyone of the poor decision.   But, let's think about this another way since this part of the discussion bothersome me most.  

The Mack and Cooper trade defenders hang their hat on the Raiders being in rebuild mode.  That doesn't make sense since Mack and Cooper are young players.    And, if the Raiders are rebuilding, why take chances on so many old, troubled players that take the spots of young players with upside.   Why try to win 6 games during a rebuild?    

Edited by DocHolliday
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When Mack retires we'll finally stop hearing about that trade

Then 5 years later when he's inducted it'll start up again.

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1 hour ago, DocHolliday said:

You can wish away the Mack and Cooper talk but it's not going to end by Raider fans or the media for years.   Every week that Mack and Cooper help their teams to victory reminds everyone of the poor decision.   But, let's think about this another way since this part of the discussion bothersome me most.  

The Mack and Cooper trade defenders hang their hat on the Raiders being in rebuild mode.  That doesn't make sense since Mack and Cooper are young players.    And, if the Raiders are rebuilding, why take chances on so many old, troubled players that take the spots of young players with upside.   Why try to win 6 games during a rebuild?    

:deadhorse:

Youth has nothing to do with it. I see tons of sense spreading cap money to help us buy multiple guys who can help us win than allocating it to a single player who -- while a generational talent -- isn't resulting in more Ws.

No question this is a trade that will always sting. Main point is that bringing it up over and over again really has no point at this time in my mind as you can't fully evaluate whether this was disastrous until we see it fully play out. We still have a pick left, and let's see how all this young talent we are able to pay pans out.

I am not saying it will (I do have hope given trajectory and seeing some promising product on the field, but we have a long way to go). But where I see forest, you are constantly lamenting a tree or two.

If it has shaken your confidence in this team and its management so much that you can't have patience to see if it allows us to finally turn a corner -- one we've all been waiting for for the last 15 years, and one I'd argue we're seeing glimmering signs of despite all the ridiculous tumult and player loss we've gone through this year -- then go be a Bears or a Cowboys fan and root for the trees you love and the GMs that were so smart to make the moves you think make for a better team.

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2 hours ago, Stompin' Tom Connors said:

:deadhorse:

Youth has nothing to do with it. I see tons of sense spreading cap money to help us buy multiple guys who can help us win than allocating it to a single player who -- while a generational talent -- isn't resulting in more Ws.

 

I don't understand this logic

To say Mack wouldn't result in more wins is foolish.  While they did suck even with him playing at elite levels, they are in rebuild mode and getting rid of an elite young player at an important decision made no sense.  As they get better, he would contribute greatly to wins, even this season.  Also, the "2 first rounders" argument is kind of tainted since they also gave up a 2nd rounder.  If the Bears continue to do well, that pick is most likely a half round difference between late first and early to mid 2nd. Kind of a 1 1/2 first rounder.  Essentially,  Jacobs and salary cap relief for Mack so far.  Jacobs looks good but even the most blatant homer can't compare an elite edge rusher to a good RB as far as importance to the team.  

They didn't want to pay Mack, but then they make Brown the top paid tackle in the game.  Brown is a very solid player, but he is not elite and he isn't even playing left tackle.  Money would have been better spent on Mack.

 

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16 minutes ago, efactor said:

I don't understand this logic

To say Mack wouldn't result in more wins is foolish.  While they did suck even with him playing at elite levels....

A lot of that logic is in your very own post right afterwards -- what was our record with Mack?

You have a point that as the team got better, Mack could contribute that much more to the team. But that's as much conjecture as the conjecture I've made -- for example, in your estimation of the trade right now, I think you are vastly underestimating how much that salary cap relief enables us to do in the near and far term. But we won't truly know until we will, and I don't think we can make that call right now.

This is an argument I'm no longer interested in carrying on. I know you and @DocHolliday and others in this thread and in the media have their opinion about how stupid this trade was. There are others like me who lean the other way -- that keeping Mack hamstrung long term ability to turn us around with so much cap space % sunk into one player.

I'm not out to change the opinions of you or others. I'm not sure you can change my opinion until we see how this bears out. I'm not sure either of us can without any doubt claim our argument is 100% correct.

What is true is that this happened more than a year ago. And as much as it may always sting, it's like complaining about the Immaculate Reception -- it happened, it sucked, but complaining about it literally accomplishes nothing.

I just want to move on -- the team certainly has, just as it's moved on from AB and will move on from Burfict's ban this season.

And that's all I'll say about the topic going forward, I think I've said my piece enough.  

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Mack and Cooper ramifications are still being resolved. We don't know yet who the next 1st rounder will be.

Or who the rest of the cap flexibility that was created will be allocated towards.

So far it was allocated to:

Tony Clown - cap relief better be coming or I am boycotting this ####### league. Seriously, if the Raiders get hit with this POS's cap charge next year, I'm out of the NFL business for as long as those cap charges remain. No fantasy, no watching games. None of it. #### him, #### them and #### me if that happens.

Trent Brown - looking good so far, when healthy. Dude's been nicked repeatedly though. (Key takeaway - cap allocation is 2 yrs only; flexibilty to replace with a better top shelf player if he falters or can't stay healthy)

Lamarcus Joyner - LJ looks great. He has been solid so far and everything we could've hoped for in a vet free agent signing. (4yr series of single year team options - FLEXIBILITY)

Terrelle the Gazelle - lukewarm on his play, given his salary. It's early though, and he has at least been flashing. TD every game so far is meaningful. Upside still to come hopefully. (4yr series of single year team options - FLEXIBILITY)

1st rdr: Jacobs - solid and major impact player on offense. And CHEAP for next 4-5 yrs, including this one.

1st rdr: Abrams - OMG, this stud was flashing future All Pro potential before getting hurt. He appears to be a true impact defender. Major health and penalty risk though, so there is that. But we have him locked for the next 3-4 years on the CHEAP.

2020 1st rdr: TBD - yeah we also gave up a probably early 2nd rdr for this likely late 1st rdr. BUT, we also got a 3rd rdr out of the exchange, so you could also look at is as a 1st, plus a trade down from 2nd to 3rd. Based on Gruyock's two late 1st round picks this year, we probably shouldn't discount the value of this pick at all. Mayock is the key, but he clearly has an eye for drafting, if this year wasn't a fluke. BONUS: I have little faith in the Raiders winning this weekend, especially not with Burfict gone. But IF they somehow do it, it'll probably make anywhere from a 6-12 slot difference, collectively between these three exchanged selections. That's huge!!

 

 

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^^^ All of the above said, I'd still rather keep Mack. He was and is a walking HOFer in his mid 20s. I would've even rejected three 1st rdrs and a forty year old South Florida Asian massage to keep that dude.

Coop was a quiet quitter and underachiever. No ragrets about that trade. He wouldn't be doing what he's doing in Dallas for the Raiders. Bottom line.

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28 minutes ago, LawFitz said:

^^^ All of the above said, I'd still rather keep Mack. He was and is a walking HOFer in his mid 20s. I would've even rejected three 1st rdrs and a forty year old South Florida Asian massage to keep that dude.

Coop was a quiet quitter and underachiever. No ragrets about that trade. He wouldn't be doing what he's doing in Dallas for the Raiders. Bottom line.

ok. now this argument has gone too far!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

;)

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