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How Much Of Team's Success Is Coach Responsible For? - Bill Belichick Edition

How much of New England's success is Bill Belichick responsible for?  

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20 minutes ago, Iceman03 said:

He had 5 seasons, a half decade, in Cleveland. You can declare it unfair all you want, when you dismiss it you are marginalizing the impact of Tom Brady.

B.B. got the Browns to 11-5 with the #1 defense in the league in his fourth season. The following season Vinny Testaverde got hurt early on and the team announced it was moving to Baltimore. They went 1-6 after the announcement. At that point it was like playing in all road games, as the home fans were more hostile than supportive.  Who knows what would have happened if the Browns has stayed in Cleveland and B.B. stayed as head coach. 

But the Browns went from a -234 point scoring differential the season before Bill took over to a +136 point differential in four seasons. That’s a swing of 370 points, and that should not be overlooked. The narrative that Belichick completely bombed in Cleveland is not an entirely accurate one. 

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40 minutes ago, Anarchy99 said:

B.B. got the Browns to 11-5 with the #1 defense in the league in his fourth season. The following season Vinny Testaverde got hurt early on and the team announced it was moving to Baltimore. They went 1-6 after the announcement. At that point it was like playing in all road games, as the home fans were more hostile than supportive.  Who knows what would have happened if the Browns has stayed in Cleveland and B.B. stayed as head coach. 

But the Browns went from a -234 point scoring differential the season before Bill took over to a +136 point differential in four seasons. That’s a swing of 370 points, and that should not be overlooked. The narrative that Belichick completely bombed in Cleveland is not an entirely accurate one. 

My point is not to #### on BB or to say he bombed in Cleveland. I don’t think I’ve done either of those things. All I’ve done is point out his record is sub .500 without Tom Brady. The 70, 80, 90% credit is outlandish and fully ridiculous. He’s a great coach, 1st ballot HOF’er, one of the best NFL personnel evaluators for both coaching staffs and players (college not so much) but he doesn’t get on the field and play the game. Those ice water moments with Brady don’t come pulsing through BB and wouldn’t happen with some other QB.

I brought up very briefly in the Tomlin thread Peyton Manning... Tony Dungy is considered a HOFer now but he was another coach who did just enough to win in the regular season and whose conservative nature was costly enough to get him fired in Tampa. In fact, that’s almost a theme with Manning. Jim Mora, previously fired in NO, Dungy fired in TB, Jim Caldwell fired at Wake Forest, John Fox fired in Carolina, Gary Kubiak fired in Houston... those coaches combined record with Manning: 186-79 .702%

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80%

 

Two things....culture and salary cap management....instilling a system or culture where no part is bigger than the sum (except Tom Brady, who adjusts his salary so they can remain competitive!) is key.....the Patriots, more than any other team, in recent history (although rah rah Pete seems to be trying to do the same in Seattle) are able to keep re-tooling, and re-invening with different pieces to keep the machine rolling.....Belichick is the Mastermind.....Brady sets the example on the field and holds the other guys accountable.

 

I could even go a bit less for BB and give Brady more credit....maybe 70/30?

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2 minutes ago, Manster said:

 

 

Two things....culture and salary cap management....

I agree but with respect to NE I've thought over the years how responsible was Brady for that culture, could he possibly have as much to do with as BB? Other than ownership BB and Brady are the two constants. Brady is a mega star married to a supermodel but I've never heard a credible report that painted him as anything other then a first class teammate. First in the building,  hard working, never satisfied, coachable despite being a huge star,  not trying to maximize the cap to help the team,etc,etc. This ties into something I said in one of the Steeler's discussions regarding their culture and why I think Big Ben's role should be examined in Steeler's suddenly poor culture. I've been a Steeler fan for 37 years and Big Ben is the best QB I've had pleasure of cheering for during this timeframe but I don't think he helps form the culture or is remotely the same kind of leader as Brady.  We've seen a lot of coaches from the BB tree fail and one often cited reason is they try and set the NE culture but don't have skins on the walls like BB does to demand that respect. But I do ask myself sometimes what if those coaches just don't have a superstar culture setting leader at QB like Brady? How much different might we all view this if they had that and BB did not?

As just as sports fan and not rooting against NE I was really disappointed they traded Garapallo as I'd hoped they might do the unthinkable and send Brady off. I just wanted to see BB without Brady to see if anything was lost in the culture but also to see if Brady could do what most of head coach hires from NE could not and bring the NE culture with him. We might still see this one day but I wanted a chance to see it before both got to much older.

And please don't attack me NE fans. I got massive respect for BB, just got a lot of respect for your QB as well. I think the culture they both helped form is second to none and major key to NE's success

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15 hours ago, DropKick said:

People make the point all the time.  However, I think there is a "chicken or the egg" aspect to this.  The teams within the division flirt with respectability at times but can't get past NE.  I think it influences their decision making at times. 

Pats have essentially the same winning % vs AFCE as rest of NFL, like 70-75%. The Manning Colts are a more apt example of benefiting from a poor division, as there were years they feasted on a weak division going 80-90% in division and then 60-70% vs rest of league.

And it's not like they are winning the division going 9-7 while second place is 6-10. They go 14-2, 13-3, 12-4 and then many years the runner-up is 10-6 or 11-5. So the argument you could make is they have benefitted from not having  really strong second team that could go 12-4. But how many divisions consistently have two 12-4 or better teams? None consistently.

Sorry for the semi-rant, but I've had this argument with friends for years, and its just a classic example where anecdotal drive-by thinking of "yeah but their divisions stinks" does not hold up to logical and factual scrutiny.

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54 minutes ago, tombonneau said:

Pats have essentially the same winning % vs AFCE as rest of NFL, like 70-75%. The Manning Colts are a more apt example of benefiting from a poor division, as there were years they feasted on a weak division going 80-90% in division and then 60-70% vs rest of league.

And it's not like they are winning the division going 9-7 while second place is 6-10. They go 14-2, 13-3, 12-4 and then many years the runner-up is 10-6 or 11-5. So the argument you could make is they have benefitted from not having  really strong second team that could go 12-4. But how many divisions consistently have two 12-4 or better teams? None consistently.

Sorry for the semi-rant, but I've had this argument with friends for years, and its just a classic example where anecdotal drive-by thinking of "yeah but their divisions stinks" does not hold up to logical and factual scrutiny.

also, if someone wants to argue that playing in a weak division was the reason for NE making the playoffs every year ... insinuating that the team is not really as good as their record indicates

... what would explain their success in the post-season?

As far a BB goes ... not very good at buying the groceries ... but he can sure cook up a great meal with what he's got. Great coach ... not so great GM

If somehow he's able to win a SB this year with this pathetic lack of talent on defense, this would be almost as much of an accomplishment as his first one.

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I put 80%. Might have been low. Remember, he went 11-5 with Matt Cassel.

The dude works hard and takes his job seriously, but he's also a little too eager to gain an edge wherever he can. Some people would have you believe that the only times he's cheated have been the times he's been caught cheating. These people also think he's very smart. Those two thoughts are incongruent. Very smart people don't get caught 100% of the time. I, too, think he's very smart and I'd say he's probably only been caught on <5% of his attempts at cheating.

Pros: Great coach, great at managing the cap, solid strategist
Cons: Lacks honor, doesn't like fun

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50%, 30% GM, 20% players and coordinators

Coaches don't do much coaching on game day, position coaches do and sometimes coordinators do. This is often way overstated.

When coaches have failed and get another chance, the first thing they seem to talk about is the mindset, collective attitude, or "air" about the team. BB spoke of accountability. Mike Mularkey spoke of consistency. Coughlin liked to use employer type phrases like product, show up on time, do the work etc.  It seems to me, these coaches are the ones that are successful- not necessarily the ones that get hired and speak of game planning, but on the group mindset. 

The Giants and Jets have had some coaches obsessed with doing things their way and, in hindsight, I could probably have predicted their demise. There's gotta be an us, a we, a collective culture.

Belichick and Tom Landry adapt better than any coaches ever. They are students of the game while watching film and then teachers of the game while coaching. Anything can work as long as it's taught well. A teacher with this mindset tends to make things easy and breed more success. The players, schemes, styles, coordinators...the amount of change these two coached with and didn't blink is really incredible. 

They all speak simply. You block this guy, you block that guy, you cover that guy etc. Losses are because they didn't do something simple well, like catch or block or cover. This seems to be the only method that works for the big egos and huge salaries of the NFL. A player doesn't get all bummed when he does poorly or insanely confident when he does well. Cowher always used the KISS phrase and 7Ps phrase. If the game's simple then you easily transform into discussing execution of plays. 

There are 90 guys in the offseason and 53 in the regular season (more with player moves) following one leader. So many coaches lose sight of this nowadays and just expect everyone to understand everything without the simple speech stuff.

The GM has to give the coach good guys, accountable guys, team first guys.  We've all seen plenty of UDFAs and late picks pan out. Sure teams need stars, but more than anything they need coachable players. Most GMs speak about talent and this n that while the successful ones seem to discuss what a player brings to the team and the community. 

It's a culture (some successful coaches call it a family) and there are two guys building that

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Take away Tom Brady then will talk.  Until then he's an average to below average coach.  Ala Mike Tomlin thank god Ben is almost done..   in a few years steelers will finally realize, by then they will have ruined what could have been a great career!

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On 1/1/2019 at 12:55 PM, Protocols of Stringer Bell said:

I wonder if you did a similar poll in 1989 on Walsh /Montana if it would be similar (because now I’d guess people would say Montana was 90 percent of the success).  

We do know that Belichick was not this successful in a previous coaching stint without Brady.   And they went 11-5 with Cassell the year Brady got hurt, which shows Belichick wasn’t bad.  But I’m one to say that having the greatest qb of this era is a pretty big reason that they had the best team of this era more than having the best coach.  They certainly brought out the best in each other.  

I certainly wouldn’t say it was mainly Montana. In fact I think he was more good than great. Those teams were stacked from top to bottom. Top 3 defenses, great o line, Rice, Taylor, Craig. Incredible talents. Frankly almost any qb wins multiple rings with that team and coach.

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17 hours ago, bucksoh said:

Take away Tom Brady then will talk.  Until then he's an average to below average coach.  Ala Mike Tomlin thank god Ben is almost done..   in a few years steelers will finally realize, by then they will have ruined what could have been a great career!

Dude's been to 3 SBs, 2 rings... oh, what a horrible career. Shame on the Steelers.

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5 hours ago, Dizzy said:

Dude's been to 3 SBs, 2 rings... oh, what a horrible career. Shame on the Steelers.

Even with a competent coach which Tomlin is not!   Ben would have had more SB wins.

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Put a high school coach on there same results as Tomlin,  maybe even better results!  Hell who am I kidding the HS coach would have done better than Tomlin!

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On 1/1/2019 at 4:12 PM, menobrown said:

Curious what people would think in this scenario. Take a team in need of both a HC and a QB, let's say Denver.  BB is 66 and Aaron Rodgers is 35 so let's just say both have a shelf life of giving you 5 good years. If you are or were a fan of Denver which one of those hires would you rather have, which one do people think would make the biggest impact over the next 5 years?

IMO, the QB.  I think the coach's impact takes more time.  A culture must be established. By year five, their graphs should have intersected.  Rodgers will be in decline & the BB culture will be having its effect. 

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11 hours ago, bucksoh said:

Even with a competent coach which Tomlin is not!   Ben would have had more SB wins.

Why? Because he is SO MUCH better than say, Peyton Manning, Aaron Rogers, John ELway, and so many other great QBs with 2 (or fewer) rings?

Winning Super Bowls is hard... even for the Steelers.

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Here are the Top 20 QB's ranked on CareerAV . . . and the number of SB appearances they had.

			AV	W	L	Total
Peyton Manning		271	2	2	4
Tom Brady		255	5	3	8
Brett Favre		255	1	1	2
Drew Brees		239	1	0	1
Fran Tarkenton		236	0	3	3
Dan Marino		216	0	1	1
John Elway		203	2	3	5
Philip Rivers		177	0	0	0
Ben Roethlisberger	171	2	1	3
Steve Young		171	1	0	1
Warren Moon		166	0	0	0
Joe Montana		164	4	0	4
Dan Fouts		162	0	0	0
Ken Anderson		161	0	1	1
Aaron Rodgers		157	1	0	0
Eli Manning		150	2	0	0
Matt Ryan		150	0	1	1
Johnny Unitas		145	1	1	2
Len Dawson		144	1	1	2
John Hadl		143	0	0	0

If, in theory, an elite QB makes all the difference and trumps great coaching, wouldn't the best QB's have way more trips to the Super Bowl? As far as Brady goes, for years there have been people in the Shark Pool suggesting that QB X or QB Y would have just as many titles as Brady (possibly more) if that player had the benefit of BB as a coach and playing with the NE defense. If people really feel that way, than how is Brady the one piece that NE couldn't live without and the majority reason why they have been to and won so many SB's?

I realize it is hard to compare different eras of football, and the current era of free agency and the salary cap makes things a lot different. Say what you want about the Patriots, but they have mastered the salary cap better than any other team. Not sure how many coaches have autonomy over personnel decisions, contracts, and cap management, but that is one thing that BB has done in today's game that has been a stand out. He hasn't been the best drafter in recent drafts, but in terms of getting a lot of production and wins out of the same salary cap everyone else has to adhere to, he has been a master.

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On 1/2/2019 at 12:27 AM, Iceman03 said:

My point is not to #### on BB or to say he bombed in Cleveland. I don’t think I’ve done either of those things. All I’ve done is point out his record is sub .500 without Tom Brady. The 70, 80, 90% credit is outlandish and fully ridiculous. He’s a great coach, 1st ballot HOF’er, one of the best NFL personnel evaluators for both coaching staffs and players (college not so much) but he doesn’t get on the field and play the game. Those ice water moments with Brady don’t come pulsing through BB and wouldn’t happen with some other QB.

I brought up very briefly in the Tomlin thread Peyton Manning... Tony Dungy is considered a HOFer now but he was another coach who did just enough to win in the regular season and whose conservative nature was costly enough to get him fired in Tampa. In fact, that’s almost a theme with Manning. Jim Mora, previously fired in NO, Dungy fired in TB, Jim Caldwell fired at Wake Forest, John Fox fired in Carolina, Gary Kubiak fired in Houston... those coaches combined record with Manning: 186-79 .702%

Agree. I voted 30%. It can't be 70% or higher because BB doesn't win a single Superbowl in NE without Brady and he likely won't win another one after he retires. Maybe Brady never wins one either if he gets drafted by a different team. They both made each other better.

Also at least 10% credit goes to the perpetually weak AFC East division. Brady + weak division makes it so much easier to get home field advantage every year. Also how many free agents would have signed elsewhere if Brady isn't there.

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2 minutes ago, TwinTurbo said:

Also how many free agents would have signed elsewhere if Brady isn't there.

How many free agents signed there in the first place? Not many. They normally brought in retreads that were passed over by 31 other teams. Who are the free agents that you are referring to?

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On ‎1‎/‎3‎/‎2019 at 12:51 AM, bucksoh said:

Take away Tom Brady then will talk.  Until then he's an average to below average coach. 

ok

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On 1/1/2019 at 9:40 PM, baymen said:

Bringing up BB's run in Cleveland in my mind doesn't work imo.  Parcells almost got run out of town before getting his program in place.  BB would have been successful in Cleveland if kept on board. Parcells laid the seeds for the early Patriots run, but how BB has nurtured, sustained and adapted it over the past 2 decades makes him the GOAT of all coaches imo.

Not to mention the Browns were in the midst of leaving town.

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On 1/1/2019 at 12:55 PM, Protocols of Stringer Bell said:

I wonder if you did a similar poll in 1989 on Walsh /Montana if it would be similar (because now I’d guess people would say Montana was 90 percent of the success).  

We do know that Belichick was not this successful in a previous coaching stint without Brady.   And they went 11-5 with Cassell the year Brady got hurt, which shows Belichick wasn’t bad.  But I’m one to say that having the greatest qb of this era is a pretty big reason that they had the best team of this era more than having the best coach.  They certainly brought out the best in each other.  

The thing that's tough for me with this i.... Brady was without doubt the most successful QB of his era.    If that's our definition of greatest, ok.   But for the type of question we're considering about relative contributions, I think we're focusing on the merits of the individual player and coach and how they would apply to any situation including this one.  How would Brady do without BB, how would BB do without Brady, etc.

Is Brady the most successful QB of his era if he played for, say, the Chargers and Rivers was drafted by the Patriots?  I think that is far from a statement anyone should think they can confidently say yes to. In fact I'd probably pick the Patriots to have more wins and championships than a Brady-led Chargers.  I'm not sure I'd pick Brady's Chargers to do better than the Colts even.  Though Brady would still be elite, I do not think we'd see anything near to the Patriots run. 

Another thought experiment.  It's the start of the Patriots run.  You have to either replace BB with a randomly selected current NFL coach... or you have to replace Brady with a randomly selected NFL starting QB.

I don't know about you, but I keep BB and roll the dice at QB. And I don't need to think about it much.  I trust BB to put together a consistently great team with even mediocre QBs.  Brady is a franchise QB definitely, but BB doesn't need an elite franchise QB.  But then if he finds one... you get a run like the Patriots actually had.  I don't think Brady is guaranteed even having all winning seasons if he has poorer rosters or coaching (like some of Brees and Rodgers recent seasons).   He'll probably win a couple SBs when he's in a stretch with a good team and some luck.  I don't think he pulls out so many close wins though without the contribution of Belichick's level of preparation he has his teams at.

 

I voted 60% for BB, but I was thinking 65.  In retrospect I'd go 70.

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4 minutes ago, GregR said:

The thing that's tough for me with this i.... Brady was without doubt the most successful QB of his era.    If that's our definition of greatest, ok.   But for the type of question we're considering about relative contributions, I think we're focusing on the merits of the individual player and coach and how they would apply to any situation including this one.  How would Brady do without BB, how would BB do without Brady, etc.

Is Brady the most successful QB of his era if he played for, say, the Chargers and Rivers was drafted by the Patriots?  I think that is far from a statement anyone should think they can confidently say yes to. In fact I'd probably pick the Patriots to have more wins and championships than a Brady-led Chargers.  I'm not sure I'd pick Brady's Chargers to do better than the Colts even.  Though Brady would still be elite, I do not think we'd see anything near to the Patriots run. 

Another thought experiment.  It's the start of the Patriots run.  You have to either replace BB with a randomly selected current NFL coach... or you have to replace Brady with a randomly selected NFL starting QB.

I don't know about you, but I keep BB and roll the dice at QB. And I don't need to think about it much.  I trust BB to put together a consistently great team with even mediocre QBs.  Brady is a franchise QB definitely, but BB doesn't need an elite franchise QB.  But then if he finds one... you get a run like the Patriots actually had.  I don't think Brady is guaranteed even having all winning seasons if he has poorer rosters or coaching (like some of Brees and Rodgers recent seasons).   He'll probably win a couple SBs when he's in a stretch with a good team and some luck.  I don't think he pulls out so many close wins though without the contribution of Belichick's level of preparation he has his teams at.

 

I voted 60% for BB, but I was thinking 65.  In retrospect I'd go 70.

Forgive my ignorance, please.  How does BB contribute to the offense? 

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Just now, daveR said:

Forgive my ignorance, please.  How does BB contribute to the offense? 

Game plan.  Play calling.

Offensive scheme.  This includes things such as seeing the NFL emphasizing enforcement of physical play by the secondary, and immediately shifting his team's make up to include guys like Welker, Edelman, Dion Lewis, etc, who are small and fast and tougher to cover under the current enforcement.

Not just building a set of players that take advantage of the landscape of rules and opponent strengths and weaknesses... but also then when the team is built, adapting their scheme as needed to match their strengths of who is available, etc.

Preparation which I don't imagine there's another coach who probably compares.  Having his offense understand the defensive schemes and tendencies.  Ability to implement changes on the fly.  Anecdote:   After one game against the Pats, a Texans player mentioned doing some things that were completely new, that the team had never done before.  Worked for like one series and then the Patriots adjusted to it on the fly.

BB can't give a QB the ability to process as fast as Brady.  But I trust he's going to get a lot more out of most any QB than most other coaches will.

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People think Tomlin shouldn't be fired and that he'd be unemploed 'negative' minutes. Guy's had three of the best players at their positions in the history of the NFL - Bell, AB, Big Ben - and he's won jack didly squat since a SB victory with Bill Cowher's team back in the day. so that's ALL on Tomlin. 

Bill O'Brien has been in Hou like 8 years now, he's won squat there, too.time for him to be FIRED. he has JJ Watt, Clowney, Watson, Hopkins and he has won exactly HOW MANY playoff games?!?! get rid of that bum.

Marty Schottenheimer won loats of games, but his players kept screwing up, fumlbing at the worst times, taking bad penalties - see the NFL documentary about him. he was/is one of the best ever.

Dan Reeves wasn't a good coach, it was ALL Elway.

 

what makes BB the best ever is that he takes your best guy away from you, and makes you beat him with someone else. even as a DC with the Giants, that's what they always did.

his first stint as a HC in Cleveland didnt go so well,but it hasn't gone well for anyone since Schotts left..seriously, no one in the past 30+ years has made a name for himself coaching the Browns - so how is that on BB?! the Org is a failure, not the coach. that isn't to say that Marv Lewis is a good coach, he sux. but  so does the lousy Bengals organization.

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Tanner9919 said:

Bill O'Brien has been in Hou like 8 years now, he's won squat there, too.time for him to be FIRED. he has JJ Watt, Clowney, Watson, Hopkins and he has won exactly HOW MANY playoff games?!?! get rid of that bum.

 

5 years.

He's the same number of years into his NFL head coaching experience as BB was when Cleveland fired him.

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Head Coach is more important than anything else in my opinion. You can have a team with nothing but all-pro talent at every position, and an awful coach will still find a way to lose with it. Meanwhile a great coach, can make a mediocre team, a Super Bowl contender with a little luck. 

I voted 60%, as football is the ultimate team sport, but I 100% believe you don't win a Super Bowl with a bad coach. Every coach who has ever won a Super Bowl is at least a decent coach, every single one. No exceptions. 

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20 hours ago, GregR said:

Game plan.  Play calling.

Offensive scheme.  This includes things such as seeing the NFL emphasizing enforcement of physical play by the secondary, and immediately shifting his team's make up to include guys like Welker, Edelman, Dion Lewis, etc, who are small and fast and tougher to cover under the current enforcement.

Not just building a set of players that take advantage of the landscape of rules and opponent strengths and weaknesses... but also then when the team is built, adapting their scheme as needed to match their strengths of who is available, etc.

Preparation which I don't imagine there's another coach who probably compares.  Having his offense understand the defensive schemes and tendencies.  Ability to implement changes on the fly.  Anecdote:   After one game against the Pats, a Texans player mentioned doing some things that were completely new, that the team had never done before.  Worked for like one series and then the Patriots adjusted to it on the fly.

BB can't give a QB the ability to process as fast as Brady.  But I trust he's going to get a lot more out of most any QB than most other coaches will.

I thought the OC did these things.  What does HE do?

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11 hours ago, travdogg said:

Head Coach is more important than anything else in my opinion. You can have a team with nothing but all-pro talent at every position, and an awful coach will still find a way to lose with it. Meanwhile a great coach, can make a mediocre team, a Super Bowl contender with a little luck. 

I voted 60%, as football is the ultimate team sport, but I 100% believe you don't win a Super Bowl with a bad coach. Every coach who has ever won a Super Bowl is at least a decent coach, every single one. No exceptions. 

So much wrong in this post.

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21 hours ago, GregR said:

The thing that's tough for me with this i.... Brady was without doubt the most successful QB of his era.    If that's our definition of greatest, ok.   But for the type of question we're considering about relative contributions, I think we're focusing on the merits of the individual player and coach and how they would apply to any situation including this one.  How would Brady do without BB, how would BB do without Brady, etc.

Is Brady the most successful QB of his era if he played for, say, the Chargers and Rivers was drafted by the Patriots?  I think that is far from a statement anyone should think they can confidently say yes to. In fact I'd probably pick the Patriots to have more wins and championships than a Brady-led Chargers.  I'm not sure I'd pick Brady's Chargers to do better than the Colts even.  Though Brady would still be elite, I do not think we'd see anything near to the Patriots run. 

Another thought experiment.  It's the start of the Patriots run.  You have to either replace BB with a randomly selected current NFL coach... or you have to replace Brady with a randomly selected NFL starting QB.

I don't know about you, but I keep BB and roll the dice at QB. And I don't need to think about it much.  I trust BB to put together a consistently great team with even mediocre QBs.  Brady is a franchise QB definitely, but BB doesn't need an elite franchise QB.  But then if he finds one... you get a run like the Patriots actually had.  I don't think Brady is guaranteed even having all winning seasons if he has poorer rosters or coaching (like some of Brees and Rodgers recent seasons).   He'll probably win a couple SBs when he's in a stretch with a good team and some luck.  I don't think he pulls out so many close wins though without the contribution of Belichick's level of preparation he has his teams at.

 

I voted 60% for BB, but I was thinking 65.  In retrospect I'd go 70.

One thing BB has proven is he needs Brady, not the othe way around.  People point to when Brady was injured as an excuse,  I've got news for you , even horrible coaches can have a good season.  BB has never proven anything without Brady except that he is an average coach!  

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5 minutes ago, bucksoh said:

One thing BB has proven is he needs Brady, not the othe way around.  People point to when Brady was injured as an excuse,  I've got news for you , even horrible coaches can have a good season.  BB has never proven anything without Brady except that he is an average coach!  

What has Brady done without Belichick? 

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17 minutes ago, Ghost Rider said:

What has Brady done without Belichick? 

We'll never know, but we do know what BB has done without Brady!

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4 minutes ago, bucksoh said:

We'll never know, but we do know what BB has done without Brady!

Yep. Went 11-5 with Matt freaking Cassel.  That alone speaks volumes to Belichick's greatness. 

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5 hours ago, Ghost Rider said:

Yep. Went 11-5 with Matt freaking Cassel.  That alone speaks volumes to Belichick's greatness. 

Cassel did the same thing in KC 2 yrs later (IE feast on easy sched by beating week teams and losing to quality teams) and therefor it must also speak volumes to Tod Haley's greatness........... 

Edited by NE_REVIVAL

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1 hour ago, NE_REVIVAL said:

Cassel did the same thing in KC 2 yrs later (IE feast on easy sched by beating week teams and losing to quality teams) and therefor it must also speak volumes to Tod Haley's greatness........... 

Link to when the Chiefs went 11-5 with Matt Cassel? 

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1 hour ago, Ghost Rider said:

Link to when the Chiefs went 11-5 with Matt Cassel? 

Is this a semantics deal? Matt Cassel definitely went 10-6 in KC (10-5 as a starter in NE) and posted stats similar to his big NE year. Didn’t hurt that he had Randy Moss and peak Wes Welker that NE year too. 

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On 1/6/2019 at 9:29 AM, daveR said:

 I thought the OC did these things.  What does HE do?

Neither of us are in their meeting rooms, but I don't think you're correct in the case of New England.  They have input, but I think BB plays a direct role in all of those.

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The thing you need to consider is that Belichick's success goes far beyond traditional coaching. His handling of the roster year in and year out is nothing short of amazing. Since 2001, the Patriots have never been in salary cap hell for a single season and have never been in a rebuild situation. Now some of that is attributable to Brady taking below market deals but a larger part is BB's uncanny ability to turn over the roster every few years without overcommitting to a guy past his prime on a terrible contract.  He consistently takes fliers on players from other teams and makes them productive within his system. This goes beyond Xs and Os and speaks more to the culture within that organization and Belichick's ability to take flawed players and put them into the best position to succeed.

I put BB as 80% responsible, and that's probably too low.

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3 hours ago, Workhorse said:

The thing you need to consider is that Belichick's success goes far beyond traditional coaching. His handling of the roster year in and year out is nothing short of amazing. Since 2001, the Patriots have never been in salary cap hell for a single season and have never been in a rebuild situation. Now some of that is attributable to Brady taking below market deals but a larger part is BB's uncanny ability to turn over the roster every few years without overcommitting to a guy past his prime on a terrible contract.  He consistently takes fliers on players from other teams and makes them productive within his system. This goes beyond Xs and Os and speaks more to the culture within that organization and Belichick's ability to take flawed players and put them into the best position to succeed.

I put BB as 80% responsible, and that's probably too low.

I really think the salary cap situation is again mostly due to Brady. Its a lot easier when you have a franchise HOF  QB in place.

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1 hour ago, TwinTurbo said:

I really think the salary cap situation is again mostly due to Brady. Its a lot easier when you have a franchise HOF  QB in place.

I know people say Brady has taken less than he could but has that ever been quantified?  Are they just playing shell games with the payment?  How much money has he really left on the table?

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I gave it 70% and it might even be higher. Aside from the divisional advantage they've enjoyed and all that stuff, I think they win more because of the culture that he's created, the level of accountability with the players, and the system in place where everyone can be replaced and is utilized the way they should more than any one player, Brady included.

I think Brady will go down as the greatest QB of all time, but I don't think he's anywhere near the most talented and I don't think he "made" Belichek. People talk about Brady like he's always been a superstar, but the Patriots won 3 of their Super Bowls before 2007, and before 2007 Brady had only one 4,000 yard passing season and was generally in the 24 to 28 TD pass range. A lot of people considered him a "game manager" before his 50 TDs season. He's smart, accurate, and has all the intangibles, but there are plenty of more purely talented QBs who had all those intangibles and better physical abilities but never won because of a lack of leadership in their organizations. To me, Belichek has been the difference in Brady's career and the Patriots' organization.

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1 hour ago, DropKick said:

I know people say Brady has taken less than he could but has that ever been quantified?  Are they just playing shell games with the payment?  How much money has he really left on the table?

Peyton made $248 million in 18 seasons. Brady had made $212 million in 19 seasons. Rivers has made $203 million in 15 seasons. Brees has made $221 million in 18 seasons. Eli has made $235 million in 15 seasons. Rodgers has made $204 million in 14 seasons. Big Ben has made $187 million in 15 seasons. Ryan has made $178 million in 11 seasons.

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I'm constantly amazed at how the Patriots convince teams to give them high picks for players, and then give up barely anything for decent players. Not all the time, but enough that I'm like "how can the other GMs keep filling their pantry?"
BB has a lot to do with that. I think you could give him the head coaching job on any remaining playoff team and that team will be considered better. I can't think of a team that wouldn't prefer BB to whatever coach they have. 

Brady/BB are 5-3 in Super Bowls. They could have been 8-0 pretty easily. Let's say 7-1 because a lot had to go right to beat Atlanta. But the Vinatieri go-ahead FGs were when the games were tied iirc. They still could have won even if he had missed. 

I put 70 percent. Maybe too high. Maybe BB-50, TB-25, everything else -25.

(not knocking Brady. I consider him and Montana co-#1, but that might be nostalgia. If you call Brady the clear GOAT I won't argue it). 

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9 hours ago, DropKick said:

I know people say Brady has taken less than he could but has that ever been quantified?  Are they just playing shell games with the payment?  How much money has he really left on the table?

I’m sure a stand up guy like Robert Kraft doesn’t have any secret under the table deals worked out with Brady.

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On 1/6/2019 at 5:55 PM, Ghost Rider said:

Link to when the Chiefs went 11-5 with Matt Cassel? 

If u really want to argue semantics just check out Pro Football reference and u will see they had the same record. The point I was making is Casell played well that 1yr in KC as well so if Casell doing well that 1yr in NE is proof of BBs greatness then the 1yr in KC must should also be proof of Todd Haley's greatness..

 

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On 1/6/2019 at 10:29 AM, daveR said:

I thought the OC did these things.  What does HE do?

Belichick is more hands on than most HCs and obviously has major input into the offense - it’s not like he’s done this all with the same OC.

Belichick just knows football - sure his background is mostly on the defensive side of the ball but that’s just how it worked out. He was actually the Giants special teams coach his first season with them. 

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On 1/1/2019 at 1:11 PM, Dizzy said:

I'll give him 50% credit. And that's a lot IMO. Pats don't go on this epic run without GOAT at QB.

Helps to play in the (annually) weakest division in football. THIS is what propels them from "wildcard round" to "home w/ bye" in the post season. Jets/Bills/Phins rebuilding for the entirety of the BB/TB12 era. People overlook this quite a bit.

Not that its a huge thing....but hasn't BB done a good job poaching the team in his own division of useful talent over the years?  How many coaches has the AFC East gone thru during BB's tenure?

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5 hours ago, Neil Beaufort Zod said:

I'm constantly amazed at how the Patriots convince teams to give them high picks for players, and then give up barely anything for decent players. Not all the time, but enough that I'm like "how can the other GMs keep filling their pantry?"
BB has a lot to do with that. I think you could give him the head coaching job on any remaining playoff team and that team will be considered better. I can't think of a team that wouldn't prefer BB to whatever coach they have. 

Brady/BB are 5-3 in Super Bowls. They could have been 8-0 pretty easily. Let's say 7-1 because a lot had to go right to beat Atlanta. But the Vinatieri go-ahead FGs were when the games were tied iirc. They still could have won even if he had missed. 

I put 70 percent. Maybe too high. Maybe BB-50, TB-25, everything else -25.

(not knocking Brady. I consider him and Montana co-#1, but that might be nostalgia. If you call Brady the clear GOAT I won't argue it). 

Could be 1-7 or 0-8 as well.  They haven't blown anyone away or have been blown away. 

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2 minutes ago, NE_REVIVAL said:

If u really want to argue semantics just check out Pro Football reference and u will see they had the same record. The point I was making is Casell played well that 1yr in KC as well so if Casell doing well that 1yr in NE is proof of BBs greatness then the 1yr in KC must should also be proof of Todd Haley's greatness..

 

I don’t think that one season is the only thing that shows how great Belichick is/was - he also went 3-1 with Jimmy G and Brisset and won his first AFC championship game with Drew Bledsoe leading the comeback after Brady left the game trailing.

And everyone is leaving off his time as DC of the Giants where they won two Super Bowls with very average at best offenses - it was all defense. And his time in Cleveland where he wasn’t the failure everyone is claiming he was - he won a playoff game before the team fell apart the next year amidst the team announcing they were leaving for Baltimore.

Now of course Brady is also a huge part of his success and it’s unlikely he’d have the 8 Super Bowl appearances in NE with a lesser QB - but as one that thinks he’s more important I do think they still would have had sustained success without Brady - assuming they did have a good QB of course.

Now it’s hard to say what Brady would have done outside of New England. He obviously over achieved his draft position and surely would have found a way to have at least proved himself to be a top QB in the league but I don’t believe he would have 5 Super Bowl wins - and frankly he may not have any. That’s not to say he  isn’t a great QB, he sure is - but the situation matters. If he went to Cincy I don’t think he’d have any. If he went to Pittsburgh, I could see 2 or 3.

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19 minutes ago, Dr. Octopus said:

I don’t think that one season is the only thing that shows how great Belichick is/was - he also went 3-1 with Jimmy G and Brisset and won his first AFC championship game with Drew Bledsoe leading the comeback after Brady left the game trailing.

And everyone is leaving off his time as DC of the Giants where they won two Super Bowls with very average at best offenses - it was all defense. And his time in Cleveland where he wasn’t the failure everyone is claiming he was - he won a playoff game before the team fell apart the next year amidst the team announcing they were leaving for Baltimore.

Now of course Brady is also a huge part of his success and it’s unlikely he’d have the 8 Super Bowl appearances in NE with a lesser QB - but as one that thinks he’s more important I do think they still would have had sustained success without Brady - assuming they did have a good QB of course.

Now it’s hard to say what Brady would have done outside of New England. He obviously over achieved his draft position and surely would have found a way to have at least proved himself to be a top QB in the league but I don’t believe he would have 5 Super Bowl wins - and frankly he may not have any. That’s not to say he  isn’t a great QB, he sure is - but the situation matters. If he went to Cincy I don’t think he’d have any. If he went to Pittsburgh, I could see 2 or 3.

I agree with much of this (minor point, NE was leading (thank u troy brown and special teams) when Flowers cheap shotted Brady low for 2nd time in game and knocked him out (grrr)).

I feel BB is the greatest HC of all time and was just addressing GRs point re Casell and the 2008 season. I agree with your point that it is more likely than not BB would have sustained success as long as he had a good qb. It is much harder to say for Brady since any player has so much less control over their own destiny. If you believe Brady and or Montana going to Cincy wouldn't have won I wouldn't quibble, situation matters. 

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37 minutes ago, NE_REVIVAL said:

I agree with much of this (minor point, NE was leading (thank u troy brown and special teams) when Flowers cheap shotted Brady low for 2nd time in game and knocked him out (grrr)).

 

I'll defer to you on that. I guess Pitt took the lead after that then because I remember Bledson driving them for the go ahead score late in the game. There was even some minor controversy as to who would start in the Super Bowl (in the media) which Belichick squashed quickly.

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