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KCitons

USA DUI Deaths (and how they relate to other things)

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1 hour ago, KCitons said:

Just highlighting the truth. (and the hypocrisy)

People are angry that kids might not be safe at school. Or at church. Or at a concert. But how do they get to those places? It's similar to the lefts complaint of the right in regards to abortion. They care about he child in the womb, but then don't have programs to take care of it once it's born. 

 

 

Guns make schools (and homes) less safe, not more. 

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1 hour ago, KarmaPolice said:

Keep rocking the "hypocrisy" posts, it's amusing.   I am sure that people worried about their kids' safety at school and church aren't worried about their kids' safety on the way to school.  

Their so worried that they are calling for more alcohol regulation? Their not. Failure to acknowledge and act are the same as condoning. Isn't that what is being stated in the gun thread to gun owners?

We know that people die due to guns and alcohol. But some see the answer to gun deaths as being training, licensing, background checks to purchase, or limiting or outright banning of guns. When it comes to correcting the alcohol problem, the solution is to wait for self driving cars. That's hypocrisy. You only need to look at the legal way we purchase alcohol and the legal way we purchase guns. If I had a violent criminal history, the odds of me being able to purchase a gun (especially a handgun) goes way up in most states. If I had an alcohol history (previous dui) I would be able to buy alcohol in any state in a matter of minutes. 

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14 minutes ago, Glass Joe said:

Guns make schools (and homes) less safe, not more. 

Does alcohol make our society more or less safe?

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I'm convinced, there should be stringent enforcement to deter DUI's as well as harsh punishment if you get caught DUI.  


Now, can we do something so my kids and the kid's at their school aren't scared they are going to be massacred?   There were FOUR TIMES in the month of May where the school was on lock down because is threats.  I have an idea, how about we make all assault rifles illegal again and we there's harsh punishment if you are found in possession of one the same way someone does for DUI?

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15 minutes ago, 2Squirrels1Nut said:

I'm convinced, there should be stringent enforcement to deter DUI's as well as harsh punishment if you get caught DUI.  


Now, can we do something so my kids and the kid's at their school aren't scared they are going to be massacred?   There were FOUR TIMES in the month of May where the school was on lock down because is threats.  I have an idea, how about we make all assault rifles illegal again and we there's harsh punishment if you are found in possession of one the same way someone does for DUI?

No.  He won't be happy until you display equal outrage for DUIs as mass shootings.  Unless that happens you are a hypocrite.  

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3 hours ago, KCitons said:

Their so worried that they are calling for more alcohol regulation? Their not. Failure to acknowledge and act are the same as condoning. Isn't that what is being stated in the gun thread to gun owners?

We know that people die due to guns and alcohol. But some see the answer to gun deaths as being training, licensing, background checks to purchase, or limiting or outright banning of guns. When it comes to correcting the alcohol problem, the solution is to wait for self driving cars. That's hypocrisy. You only need to look at the legal way we purchase alcohol and the legal way we purchase guns. If I had a violent criminal history, the odds of me being able to purchase a gun (especially a handgun) goes way up in most states. If I had an alcohol history (previous dui) I would be able to buy alcohol in any state in a matter of minutes. 

I know this sounds weird, but bare with me.  Sometimes different solutions are required for different problems.  

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19 minutes ago, 2Squirrels1Nut said:

I'm convinced, there should be stringent enforcement to deter DUI's as well as harsh punishment if you get caught DUI.  


Now, can we do something so my kids and the kid's at their school aren't scared they are going to be massacred?   There were FOUR TIMES in the month of May where the school was on lock down because is threats.  I have an idea, how about we make all assault rifles illegal again and we there's harsh punishment if you are found in possession of one the same way someone does for DUI?

Being convinced and being active about a solution are not the same. Your second paragraph proves my point.

How many people have a 2nd offense mass shooting? It doesn't happen. But we do have plenty of 2nd, 3rd, or in some cases 8th offense dui. 
 

If we had exposed school children to dui training they would be scared to drive in a car too. But, that would be a ridiculous response. After all, which is more likely to happen? Being killed in a car or being shot at school?

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6 minutes ago, KarmaPolice said:

I know this sounds weird, but bare with me.  Sometimes different solutions are required for different problems.  

Not really. 

What is your reason for not wanting to treat alcohol the same as guns? (and for the record, guns are already regulated more than alcohol). 

We've already discussed the role that alcohol plays in violent crimes, dui deaths, binge drinking deaths, etc, etc. 

What could be the benefits of alcohol that would outweigh stricter regulations?

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9 minutes ago, KarmaPolice said:

No.  He won't be happy until you display equal outrage for DUIs as mass shootings.  Unless that happens you are a hypocrite.  

Isn't this what you are expecting from me when it comes to gun regulation?

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8 minutes ago, KCitons said:

Isn't this what you are expecting from me when it comes to gun regulation?

All I expect/want is for people to engage in honest conversation.  :shrug:.

Not sure what else you think I expect from you.  

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8 minutes ago, KCitons said:

Isn't this what you are expecting from me when it comes to gun regulation?

All I expect/want is for people to engage in honest conversation.  :shrug:.

Not sure what else you think I expect from you.  

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3 minutes ago, KarmaPolice said:

All I expect/want is for people to engage in honest conversation.  :shrug:.

Not sure what else you think I expect from you.  

Have you received an honest conversation?

What do you think others are wanting? I again reference "blood on the hands of gun owners" and "repeal the 2nd Amendment" or "ban all guns" comments over the last 2 years. I already mentioned I am the only one that has altered his/her stance in that time. 

Edited by KCitons

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12 minutes ago, KCitons said:

Not really. 

What is your reason for not wanting to treat alcohol the same as guns? (and for the record, guns are already regulated more than alcohol). 

We've already discussed the role that alcohol plays in violent crimes, dui deaths, binge drinking deaths, etc, etc. 

What could be the benefits of alcohol that would outweigh stricter regulations?

Pretty sure the answer is in what you quoted.  They aren't the same thing.  Very few people are trying to equate the two or agree with you when you are drawing these comparisons.  

The only reason the get brought up together is because they have similar death #s, so for some reason you and others pounce on the "well, you dont care about these 20k deaths, so why are you outraged about these 20k??!!"  and claim the hypocrisy angle. 

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1 minute ago, KCitons said:

Have you received an honest conversation?

What do you think others are wanting? I again reference "blood on the hands of gun owners" and "repeal the 2nd Amendment" or "ban all guns" comments over the last 2 years. I already mentioned I am the only one that has altered his/her stance in that time. 

Not true, and I dont know why you keep bringing that up.  Comes off as you think you are the only one with an open mind or considering stats in these threads.  

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26 minutes ago, KarmaPolice said:

Pretty sure the answer is in what you quoted.  They aren't the same thing.  Very few people are trying to equate the two or agree with you when you are drawing these comparisons.  

The only reason the get brought up together is because they have similar death #s, so for some reason you and others pounce on the "well, you dont care about these 20k deaths, so why are you outraged about these 20k??!!"  and claim the hypocrisy angle. 

I've given statistical and cultural reasons why guns and alcohol are similar. When used properly, they are not a danger to others. When they are not, then innocent people lose their life. I'm yet to hear a rebuttal that makes me change my opinion on that. 

24 minutes ago, KarmaPolice said:

Not true, and I dont know why you keep bringing that up.  Comes off as you think you are the only one with an open mind or considering stats in these threads.  

Who else has changed their stance in the last 2 years? 

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4 hours ago, KCitons said:

Does alcohol make our society more or less safe?

Not sure about more safe but it makes it more fun.

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1 hour ago, KarmaPolice said:

No.  He won't be happy until you display equal outrage for DUIs as mass shootings.  Unless that happens you are a hypocrite.  

If there were anywhere near as many activists against alcohol regulations as there are against gun regulations, then there would probably be as much outrage about alcohol as there is guns.

But honestly I don't know one person who is against alcohol regulations. Not one.

If I did, I'd find them as appalling as i find anti-regulation gun activists. 

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3 minutes ago, Da Guru said:

Not sure about more safe but it makes it more fun.

I'm sure there are people that say the same about guns. 

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1 minute ago, Politician Spock said:

If there were anywhere near as many activists against alcohol regulations as there are against gun regulations, then there would probably be as much outrage about alcohol as there is guns.

But honestly I don't know one person who is against alcohol regulations. Not one.

If I did, I'd find them as appalling as i find anti-regulation gun activists. 

Actions speak louder than words. Not speaking up and taking action, is the same as condoning it. 

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33 minutes ago, KCitons said:

I've given statistical and cultural reasons why guns and alcohol are similar. When used properly, they are not a danger to others. When they are not, then innocent people lose their life. I'm yet to hear a rebuttal that makes me change my opinion on that. 

Who else has changed their stance in the last 2 years? 

I've changed my mind a bit about topics.  

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14 minutes ago, KarmaPolice said:

I've changed my mind a bit about topics.  

Topics? Would you like to expand on that?

(and what does "a bit" mean?)

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29 minutes ago, KCitons said:

Topics? Would you like to expand on that?

(and what does "a bit" mean?)

Guns, immigration are the bigger ones.  

A bit probably means I've moved more center or to the right on a few topics, and I am probably more in the libertarian spectrum than anything else.  Was way left without much thought to many topics about 5 years or so ago.  

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10 minutes ago, KarmaPolice said:

Guns, immigration are the bigger ones.  

A bit probably means I've moved more center or to the right on a few topics, and I am probably more in the libertarian spectrum than anything else.  Was way left without much thought to many topics about 5 years or so ago.  

This is pretty non specific. I'm not concerned about your stance on immigration. We've never had a discussion about it. 

What changed over the last two years (and specific to the honest conversations you've had here) about guns?

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33 minutes ago, KCitons said:

This is pretty non specific. I'm not concerned about your stance on immigration. We've never had a discussion about it. 

What changed over the last two years (and specific to the honest conversations you've had here) about guns?

If you aren't concerned with it, why ask what topics I've changed on? 

Specifically I have gone from a complete no-gun guy to understanding the argument and need for personal protection, so my concern becomes when the guns are in public and used in ways like mass shootings.   I am still trying to absorb as much info as possible, and for the most part there is a lot of good discussions in these threads.  

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1 hour ago, KarmaPolice said:

If you aren't concerned with it, why ask what topics I've changed on? 

Specifically I have gone from a complete no-gun guy to understanding the argument and need for personal protection, so my concern becomes when the guns are in public and used in ways like mass shootings.   I am still trying to absorb as much info as possible, and for the most part there is a lot of good discussions in these threads.  

I'm not concerned about your stance on immigration or lots of other things. We have never had a discussion on those things. We have had a discussion about gun control. That's why I was asking about topics. 

Based on your last sentence, one would assume that you agree with some of the things that myself or SC have been posting. Since we are the only ones carrying the discussion from the pro gun side. 

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4 hours ago, KCitons said:

 (and for the record, guns are already regulated more than alcohol). 

I am almost positive this is a false statement. I simply don’t believe it. I’ve spent my entire life in commercial real estate and I’ve worked on obtaining liquor licenses for stores and restaurants and I know how restrictive the laws and regulations can be. Given that there are no restrictions whatsoever on private gun sales, it seems impossible that you’re even close to correct. 

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And I have a question for everyone. If you are for some kind of gun control, do you also like Salt and vinegar potato chips? If not, why not? And explain why you’re not a hypocrite. 

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5 hours ago, KCitons said:

Being convinced and being active about a solution are not the same. Your second paragraph proves my point.

How many people have a 2nd offense mass shooting? It doesn't happen. But we do have plenty of 2nd, 3rd, or in some cases 8th offense dui. 
 

If we had exposed school children to dui training they would be scared to drive in a car too. But, that would be a ridiculous response. After all, which is more likely to happen? Being killed in a car or being shot at school?

 

 

Most mass shooters end up dead, many times by their own gun.  You must realy love your guns assault rifles to traumatize millions of Americans, mostly children, every year.  It's an insane POV.

 

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1 hour ago, KCitons said:

I'm not concerned about your stance on immigration or lots of other things. We have never had a discussion on those things. We have had a discussion about gun control. That's why I was asking about topics. 

Based on your last sentence, one would assume that you agree with some of the things that myself or SC have been posting. Since we are the only ones carrying the discussion from the pro gun side. 

No, I dont think I would agree with SC about anything.  

I've told you I used to agree with you about guns a bit up until about 2months ago when you turned to the mental health is the solution side.  

 

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37 minutes ago, timschochet said:

I am almost positive this is a false statement. I simply don’t believe it. I’ve spent my entire life in commercial real estate and I’ve worked on obtaining liquor licenses for stores and restaurants and I know how restrictive the laws and regulations can be. Given that there are no restrictions whatsoever on private gun sales, it seems impossible that you’re even close to correct. 

From a consumer standpoint, they are. Many states and cities have regulations that prevent a person from being able to buy a firearm based on criminal history. That endeavor stops at the point of sale. Are there states that prohibit alcohol sale based on past criminal history? I'd guess I'm only asked for ID about half the time when I buy alcohol. 

ETA: We aren't worried about the commercial side of alcohol or guns that contribute to deaths. It's the end user. 

Edited by KCitons

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34 minutes ago, timschochet said:

And I have a question for everyone. If you are for some kind of gun control, do you also like Salt and vinegar potato chips? If not, why not? And explain why you’re not a hypocrite. 

Right. Because it only matters if kids die at school. Not in their family car. 

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18 minutes ago, 2Squirrels1Nut said:

 

 

Most mass shooters end up dead, many times by their own gun.  You must realy love your guns assault rifles to traumatize millions of Americans, mostly children, every year.  It's an insane POV.

 

Not all mass shooters end up dead. Would you be okay with giving them access to a gun?  Let's use OJ Simpson as an example. Would you be okay with him having a firearm?

The bolded shows how little you know. I don't own an assault rift. I'm not traumatizing millions of American children. The very small percentage of school shooters aren't even traumatizing them. It's the schools that choose to put them through the training on the very small chance that they are ever involved in one. Stop the training and the traumatizing ends. 

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10 minutes ago, KarmaPolice said:

No, I dont think I would agree with SC about anything.  

I've told you I used to agree with you about guns a bit up until about 2months ago when you turned to the mental health is the solution side.  

 

A bit?

I turned to addressing the problem as we know it. Not overburdening gun owners as a way to punish. Background checks prevent those that shouldn't have guns from access. Mental health programs identify those, or give help to those, that may decide to hurt others after they have already gained access to guns. Everything else is reactive and full of hope.

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5 minutes ago, KCitons said:

A bit?

I turned to addressing the problem as we know it. Not overburdening gun owners as a way to punish. Background checks prevent those that shouldn't have guns from access. Mental health programs identify those, or give help to those, that may decide to hurt others after they have already gained access to guns. Everything else is reactive and full of hope.

Like I said, I used to agree with you.  

Now when you post about punishing gun owners IMO you are getting to the SC fringe where I probably wont be agreeing with many posts.  

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7 minutes ago, KCitons said:

A bit?

I turned to addressing the problem as we know it. Not overburdening gun owners as a way to punish. Background checks prevent those that shouldn't have guns from access. Mental health programs identify those, or give help to those, that may decide to hurt others after they have already gained access to guns. Everything else is reactive and full of hope.

To what extent are you willing to go to in order to establish the mental health of each gun owner?

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2 minutes ago, KarmaPolice said:

Like I said, I used to agree with you.  

Now when you post about punishing gun owners IMO you are getting to the SC fringe where I probably wont be agreeing with many posts.  

So exactly which bits did you agree with?

When you talk about regulations that are reactionary, then it is a punishment. I prefer to concentrate on things that will save lives, not try to make it better afterwards. 

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58 minutes ago, timschochet said:

I am almost positive this is a false statement. I simply don’t believe it. I’ve spent my entire life in commercial real estate and I’ve worked on obtaining liquor licenses for stores and restaurants and I know how restrictive the laws and regulations can be. Given that there are no restrictions whatsoever on private gun sales, it seems impossible that you’re even close to correct. 

A convicted felon can get a drivers license and get loaded at a bar with no restrictions.  No so if he try’s to buy a gun.  I think your statement is wrong/false.

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2 minutes ago, Glass Joe said:

To what extent are you willing to go to in order to establish the mental health of each gun owner?

Why do I have to establish the mental health of just gun owners? Shouldn't we have better mental health for everyone? Beyond that we could use information for developing data around potentially violent mental heath issues. As was mentioned up thread, not all mass shooters kill themselves or are killed at the end of their incident. We could learn from them. That could save lives lost through mass shootings. We could use better mental health programs to help people that are contemplating suicide. Suicide deaths account of 2/3rds of the gun deaths in this country. That could save lives lost through suicides. We could use better mental health programs to deal with alcohol affiliated mental health issues. Alcohol is a key indicator when it comes to predicting violent crimes. Alcohol is also a major factor in things like domestic violence and sexual assaults. Not to mention the number of lives lost due to drinking and driving. We could save lives through better mental health and alcohol programs. 

I'll ask you the same question. What extent are you willing to go through to regulate gun owners to impact the number of gun deaths in this country?

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Good lord.  The false equivalency in this thread is astounding.  Truly.  

Yikes. 

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12 minutes ago, KCitons said:

Why do I have to establish the mental health of just gun owners? Shouldn't we have better mental health for everyone? Beyond that we could use information for developing data around potentially violent mental heath issues. As was mentioned up thread, not all mass shooters kill themselves or are killed at the end of their incident. We could learn from them. That could save lives lost through mass shootings. We could use better mental health programs to help people that are contemplating suicide. Suicide deaths account of 2/3rds of the gun deaths in this country. That could save lives lost through suicides. We could use better mental health programs to deal with alcohol affiliated mental health issues. Alcohol is a key indicator when it comes to predicting violent crimes. Alcohol is also a major factor in things like domestic violence and sexual assaults. Not to mention the number of lives lost due to drinking and driving. We could save lives through better mental health and alcohol programs. 

I'll ask you the same question. What extent are you willing to go through to regulate gun owners to impact the number of gun deaths in this country?

I think focusing us on mental health is sat best a red herring based on this country’s priorities with regards to health.

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15 minutes ago, Gopher State said:

A convicted felon can get a drivers license and get loaded at a bar with no restrictions.  No so if he try’s to buy a gun.  I think your statement is wrong/false.

A convicted felon can go to any gun show in the country and buy whatever gun he wants from a private seller. There are no background checks, no questions asked. 

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18 minutes ago, KCitons said:

So exactly which bits did you agree with?

When you talk about regulations that are reactionary, then it is a punishment. I prefer to concentrate on things that will save lives, not try to make it better afterwards. 

Pretty sure it was you that had post about your stances about clip sizes, etc..  and at that time I said I agreed with a lot of those.  I don't have them memorized, and I am not digging through the thread to find it, I just remember having that general discussion.  

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21 minutes ago, KCitons said:

Why do I have to establish the mental health of just gun owners? Shouldn't we have better mental health for everyone? Beyond that we could use information for developing data around potentially violent mental heath issues. As was mentioned up thread, not all mass shooters kill themselves or are killed at the end of their incident. We could learn from them. That could save lives lost through mass shootings. We could use better mental health programs to help people that are contemplating suicide. Suicide deaths account of 2/3rds of the gun deaths in this country. That could save lives lost through suicides. We could use better mental health programs to deal with alcohol affiliated mental health issues. Alcohol is a key indicator when it comes to predicting violent crimes. Alcohol is also a major factor in things like domestic violence and sexual assaults. Not to mention the number of lives lost due to drinking and driving. We could save lives through better mental health and alcohol programs. 

I'll ask you the same question. What extent are you willing to go through to regulate gun owners to impact the number of gun deaths in this country?

The interesting thing about this post is that there is one side that seems to be pro-gun, but also doesn't seem to have things like health care (especially mental health) or gathering data on shooters and shooters high on their priority list.  

There is not really a pro-gun, pro-mental health way to vote from where I see things.  

Edited by KarmaPolice

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21 minutes ago, Gopher State said:

A convicted felon can get a drivers license and get loaded at a bar with no restrictions.  No so if he try’s to buy a gun.  I think your statement is wrong/false.

A convicted felon could also go to a grocery store and buy two avocados.  He could then eat the avocados and save the pits.  He could then go to a bridge overtop of a busy freeway and throw the pits a someone’s windshield, causing them to crash the car and die.  

We need to be restricting who can buy avocados.  Or, until we do, stop talking to me about proposing more gun regulation.   

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11 hours ago, KCitons said:

 

People are angry that kids might not be safe at school. Or at church. Or at a concert. But how do they get to those places?

 

I actually strongly support polices that remove cars from the road.  Including carbon/gas taxes, spending on public transit, and development policies that encourage density.

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14 minutes ago, timschochet said:

A convicted felon can go to any gun show in the country and buy whatever gun he wants from a private seller. There are no background checks, no questions asked. 

This is false. 

You should learn a little more about gun regulations before you attempt to make changes to them. There are state regulations that differ.

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1 minute ago, Slapdash said:

I actually strongly support polices that remove cars from the road.  Including carbon/gas taxes, spending on public transit, and development policies that encourage density.

Good for you. Start a thread about that. 

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17 minutes ago, Glass Joe said:

I think focusing us on mental health is sat best a red herring based on this country’s priorities with regards to health.

How so?

We now have a red herring to go with the slippery slope of gun regulation.

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2 minutes ago, KCitons said:

This is false. 

You should learn a little more about gun regulations before you attempt to make changes to them. There are state regulations that differ.

I’m always happy to be informed. What states both require and enforce background checks on all private sales? How are these laws enforced? Tia

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4 minutes ago, KCitons said:

Good for you. Start a thread about that. 

I was responding to your point.  Knew that was a mistake. 

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