Fantasy Football - Footballguys Forums
Sign in to follow this  
KCitons

USA DUI Deaths (and how they relate to other things)

Recommended Posts

1 minute ago, Politician Spock said:

If I was KC or SC I would see this as a softball coming right into my wheelhouse. 

Too easy. 

I used to think that most of the posters here have above average intelligence. I'm starting to question that premise. I'm not sure if it's the frenzy of the political climate or what, but there have been some real gaffs recently.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
36 minutes ago, Hawkeye21 said:

If they had recently gotten a DUI then they would not have a license and without any other form of ID they should not be able to purchase it.

what do you need a license for ? drive without one, and I'm 50 this summer and 3/4 of the time I'm not carded

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Skoo said:

Countries with stricter gun laws have less people killed by guns.

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/21/world/gun-laws-australia-uk-germany-canada.html

Other countries are not the United States. They don't have the gun culture or the number of guns that we have in this country. This argument holds very little water with me. When I compare guns and alcohol, I'm told that it's apples to oranges. I think the same can be said when comparing two countries. There are too many differences. The biggest difference is that most of the country is only for somewhat stricter gun laws. We haven't reached the level of resistance yet. Banning scary looking assault rifles is one thing, overextending bans that infringe on hunting rifles or home defense guns and you will see a push back. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 minutes ago, KCitons said:

I don't know. And frankly, I don't care. 

I do know that it makes sense to have a background check on all firearm transactions. This will hopefully prevent those that have a criminal history from obtaining a firearm and possibly committing violent crimes. 

Unlike the anti gun crowd here, I will not bite my tongue because you have a similar stance as mine. If you believe that we should not have universal background checks, then I would see you as being just as ignorant as the rest of them.

ok but if the vast majority of guns used in crimes are NOT gathered by a gun show loop hole ....  what good are you really doing ?

I'm all for universal background checks on new gun purchases .... but in accordance with this thread if you wanted to sell your car on Craigslist, should the Govt tell you who you can and cannot sell it to ?

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
15 minutes ago, KCitons said:

This is such a stretch it's comical. 

First off, you're about the same age as me. Out of 10 times, how many are you carded to buy alcohol? For me, it'a maybe 2 out of 10. 

Secondly, having a DUI does not preclude you from obtaining a state ID. Which allows you to buy all the alcohol you want. What is the equivalent for a convicted felon to purchase a firearm? There isn't one. Which is why I stand by my original post. 

Guns are regulated more than alcohol. 

It wasn't a stretch at all since it's factual.  Would it happen often, no, but it is certainly something that can happen.  I never said that someone couldn't get a state ID.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I rode my bike to and from the bar last night.  I also consumed alcohol in moderation.  Thankfully, I didn't get shot.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, Stealthycat said:

ok but if the vast majority of guns used in crimes are NOT gathered by a gun show loop hole ....  what good are you really doing ?

I'm all for universal background checks on new gun purchases .... but in accordance with this thread if you wanted to sell your car on Craigslist, should the Govt tell you who you can and cannot sell it to ?

 

 

Yes. 

If that person has a suspended license for a DUI, I wouldn't want to sell him/her my car. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Mookie said:

I rode my bike to and from the bar last night.  I also consumed alcohol in moderation.  Thankfully, I didn't get shot.  

why would you have been shot ?  greater chances of someone running you over at night riding a bike to be honest

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, Stealthycat said:

what do you need a license for ? drive without one, and I'm 50 this summer and 3/4 of the time I'm not carded

 

Why would I drive without a license and why would I try and buy alcohol without it?  Even if I rarely got carded I'm not making a trip to the store without it knowing that I could be IDed.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Hawkeye21 said:

It wasn't a stretch at all since it's factual.  Would it happen often, no, but it is certainly something that can happen.  I never said that someone couldn't get a state ID.

Sorry, it's a pointless argument because there are processes in place for a person to legally obtain alcohol after they have received a DUI conviction. There are no such legal processes in place for a convicted felon to obtain a firearm. 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, KCitons said:

Yes. 

If that person has a suspended license for a DUI, I wouldn't want to sell him/her my car. 

you'd never ask and the Govt doesn't regulate person to person sales of cars

you want $$$ and they give $$$ and everyone is happy, you know it and I know it

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, Hawkeye21 said:

Why would I drive without a license and why would I try and buy alcohol without it?  Even if I rarely got carded I'm not making a trip to the store without it knowing that I could be IDed.

because you want booze - isn't it like 15% of the US drivers are uninsured and have no licenses ?  reality check on how laws bind people

my wife and I went to Eureka Springs this weekend .... she's 41 and looks 21

never carded a single time

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, KCitons said:

Sorry, it's a pointless argument because there are processes in place for a person to legally obtain alcohol after they have received a DUI conviction. There are no such legal processes in place for a convicted felon to obtain a firearm. 

 

I don't see how it's a big similarity.  So what if a person wants to have a drink after they got a DUI, they can still have a drink and not drive any more.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, Stealthycat said:

you'd never ask and the Govt doesn't regulate person to person sales of cars

you want $$$ and they give $$$ and everyone is happy, you know it and I know it

Nope. 

How would you feel if, while you're counting your money, you found out that the car you sold this morning was involved in a drunk driving incident that killed a couple of kids? It's the same application that's applied to a gun that is used in a crime. And the same reason I suspect you keep your guns under lock and key. 

As a responsible part of society, we each do our part to limit the effects our life (and the objects we own) to have negative effects on innocent lives. It's just part of being a good citizen. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Hawkeye21 said:

I don't see how it's a big similarity.  So what if a person wants to have a drink after they got a DUI, they can still have a drink and not drive any more.

Felons can still own a gun for hunting or home protection. It doesn't mean they are a threat to society. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Stealthycat said:

because you want booze - isn't it like 15% of the US drivers are uninsured and have no licenses ?  reality check on how laws bind people

my wife and I went to Eureka Springs this weekend .... she's 41 and looks 21

never carded a single time

I don't know, I am insured and I make sure I have my ID with me when I drive or buy alcohol.  I try to abide by the laws as much as possible.  I figure the one time I don't have my ID would be the time they ask for it.  Also, my ID is in my wallet which I need to be able to purchase anything so it goes everywhere with me just like my phone.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, KCitons said:

Nope. 

How would you feel if, while you're counting your money, you found out that the car you sold this morning was involved in a drunk driving incident that killed a couple of kids? It's the same application that's applied to a gun that is used in a crime. And the same reason I suspect you keep your guns under lock and key. 

As a responsible part of society, we each do our part to limit the effects our life (and the objects we own) to have negative effects on innocent lives. It's just part of being a good citizen. 

I don't know

nobody requires anyone ask about DUI's and such when private sales happen - you've never asked and nobody else has either

that person is responsible for their actions in that car they bought 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, KCitons said:

Nope. 

How would you feel if, while you're counting your money, you found out that the car you sold this morning was involved in a drunk driving incident that killed a couple of kids? It's the same application that's applied to a gun that is used in a crime. And the same reason I suspect you keep your guns under lock and key. 

As a responsible part of society, we each do our part to limit the effects our life (and the objects we own) to have negative effects on innocent lives. It's just part of being a good citizen. 

Wouldn't you feel bad if you sold anything to someone that used it to kill someone?  Why does it matter what that object is?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 minutes ago, KCitons said:

Other countries are not the United States. They don't have the gun culture or the number of guns that we have in this country. This argument holds very little water with me. When I compare guns and alcohol, I'm told that it's apples to oranges. I think the same can be said when comparing two countries. There are too many differences. The biggest difference is that most of the country is only for somewhat stricter gun laws. We haven't reached the level of resistance yet. Banning scary looking assault rifles is one thing, overextending bans that infringe on hunting rifles or home defense guns and you will see a push back. 

Facts are still facts, whether you choose to accept them or not.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, Stealthycat said:

I don't know

nobody requires anyone ask about DUI's and such when private sales happen - you've never asked and nobody else has either

that person is responsible for their actions in that car they bought 

I'm not expecting this to the responsibility of the owner of the car. Should there be regulations that require mediation of the sale? Yes. If you want to sell the car, you and the buyer go to the DMV, Post Office, etc and fill out the paperwork. The clerk enters the info into a computer and it returns a pass/fail. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Hawkeye21 said:

Wouldn't you feel bad if you sold anything to someone that used it to kill someone?  Why does it matter what that object is?

Name something besides a gun or a car and we can discuss.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Hawkeye21 said:

Wouldn't you feel bad if you sold anything to someone that used it to kill someone?  Why does it matter what that object is?

um ..... I feel bad when people die, but I'm a big personal responsibility guy ............. I don't blame who manufactured the object, who shipped it, the roads it traveled on, the retailer who sold it .... objects don't matter nor does the acquisition

who did the killing is the core problem/responsibility 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, KCitons said:

Name something besides a gun or a car and we can discuss.

knives

used in a lot of attacks, assaults and murders

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Stealthycat said:

um ..... I feel bad when people die, but I'm a big personal responsibility guy ............. I don't blame who manufactured the object, who shipped it, the roads it traveled on, the retailer who sold it .... objects don't matter nor does the acquisition

who did the killing is the core problem/responsibility 

Right. But you take the effort to keep things out of the hands of people that have proven that they can't handle the responsibility. You have a son. But, I'm assuming you put the poisons on the top shelf after he was born. In the case of someone with a criminal history or a dui, they have shown that they cannot handle the responsibility. It's not up to you to put those items on the top shelf. That is handled through the government with a background check. 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, KCitons said:

Name something besides a gun or a car and we can discuss.

Literally anything can be use to kill someone.  I've seen you and SC use random objects for comparisons all the time.  Could be a knife, bat, rope, candle stick, pipe, shoes, folding chair, sword, lawn mower, corn rake, lasso, pit bull, cue ball, pool cue, fire poker, pitch fork, chain saw, hammer, scythe...  I'm tired of listing things.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, Stealthycat said:

knives

used in a lot of attacks, assaults and murders

If you had a yard sale and a 3 year old wanted to buy your Bowie knife, would you sell it to him?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, Stealthycat said:

um ..... I feel bad when people die, but I'm a big personal responsibility guy ............. I don't blame who manufactured the object, who shipped it, the roads it traveled on, the retailer who sold it .... objects don't matter nor does the acquisition

who did the killing is the core problem/responsibility 

I actually agree with a lot of that as well but I feel guns are still a different category and should be treated differently.  They are just not the same as anything else.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, Hawkeye21 said:

Literally anything can be use to kill someone.  I've seen you and SC use random objects for comparisons all the time.  Could be a knife, bat, rope, candle stick, pipe, shoes, folding chair, sword, lawn mower, corn rake, lasso, pit bull, cue ball, pool cue, fire poker, pitch fork, chain saw, hammer, scythe...  I'm tired of listing things.

Do we currently register nay of those things? Do we have to have a special permit to use any of those things?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, KCitons said:

Do we currently register nay of those things? Do we have to have a special permit to use any of those things?

Nope, but some of those things would not be allowed into certain places.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, KCitons said:

Right. But you take the effort to keep things out of the hands of people that have proven that they can't handle the responsibility. You have a son. But, I'm assuming you put the poisons on the top shelf after he was born. In the case of someone with a criminal history or a dui, they have shown that they cannot handle the responsibility. It's not up to you to put those items on the top shelf. That is handled through the government with a background check. 

 

you don't do that to people who are buying your car no

you ever had a yard sale? do you question everyone background and motives when they buy things ?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, Hawkeye21 said:

I'm tired of listing things.

right

because you don't care what people use to kill other people .... right ?   the objects really don't matter - its the acts and those people isn't it ?

Quote

I actually agree with a lot of that as well but I feel guns are still a different category and should be treated differently.  They are just not the same as anything else.

I know ... and we have many common sense gun laws

 

why need more that literally targets the least used guns in gun deaths ?

Edited by Stealthycat

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, KCitons said:

If you had a yard sale and a 3 year old wanted to buy your Bowie knife, would you sell it to him?

you are using extremes

you and both would sell knives to adults ..... and never question their backgrounds at all 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, Stealthycat said:

right

because you don't care what people use to kill other people .... right ?   the objects really don't matter - its the acts and those people isn't it ?

It's because those are not common things to use and in most cases would be ridiculous to use.  All of those objects I listed are not made to kill with the exception of the knife and even that's not always meant for killing.  That's why these are all very different than guns and should be treated differently.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Hawkeye21 said:

Nope, but some of those things would not be allowed into certain places.

That wasn't what I said. Do we register a car? Do we register a gun?

This is where the similarities begins between these two and end with everything else. 

What about an airplane? What does it take to buy and operate and airplane? I'm assuming you can't just buy an airplane and fly it anytime, anywhere. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, Stealthycat said:

you don't do that to people who are buying your car no

you ever had a yard sale? do you question everyone background and motives when they buy things ?

You would be wrong. I wouldn't sell a pellet gun to a person under 18.

I don't question an adults motive for buying my car. But, that's because we don't have regulations to address it. But, I would support regulation.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, KCitons said:

That wasn't what I said. Do we register a car? Do we register a gun?

This is where the similarities begins between these two and end with everything else. 

What about an airplane? What does it take to buy and operate and airplane? I'm assuming you can't just buy an airplane and fly it anytime, anywhere. 

I would assume it takes a bit of work to get and fly an airplane.  There are regulations for it which makes perfect sense.  Registering a car makes sense.  Registering a gun makes sense.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, Stealthycat said:

you are using extremes

you and both would sell knives to adults ..... and never question their backgrounds at all 

You skirted the question with an obvious conclusion. But one that is completely different from the question.

I will ask again. Would you sell a 3 year old a Bowie knife?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
28 minutes ago, Stealthycat said:

why need more that literally targets the least used guns in gun deaths ?

I have posted stats that say only 3-5% of these gun deaths are by people diagnosed with a severe mental illness.  You keep saying that it's the people and the mental illness that is the problem.  Why are you targeting something that is only true for 3-5% of these incidents?

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 5/29/2019 at 10:59 AM, KCitons said:

It has to be an instantaneous background check when the drivers license is scanned. It doesn't need to give details, just return verification that the id matches the person standing in front of you and whether they pass or fail. This would help reduce the effectiveness drinking due to fake ID's. You would have to alter the bar code and the database in order to get a positive return.

Would you expect that a firearm background check would only be checked once a year? I don't think people would be happy with that. They want one done each time the person makes a purchase. 

All this makes sense.  

Just trying to get a picture in my head how it would get flagged, but I guess that would be all on the police side when a DUI happens, they fail a home visit, etc.. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
22 hours ago, Politician Spock said:

I think both a gun and a liquor license would allow the consumer to purchase a gun or liquor by simply showing their gun or liquor license to the vendor (gun purchase would have 1 business day to get the purchased gun insured. If the vendor is not sent a valid pic or pdf of the insruance, he has to report it to the local authorities). For liquor, the burden on the vendor is to be able to verify a valid license. And that's it. So booze and sporting events, concerts, etc... is fine as long as it's sold to someone who shows their liquor license. 

It could be setup to use technology to verify the license is still valid by swiping it and having it check with the licensing system. Felonies can be automatically reported to the licnesing system and invalidate the license. Misdemeanors could as well, but should be limited to the severity of the crime. Background checks could be automatically run so that the license automatically "renews". Cost would be covered by an annual fee for the license. 

For the consumer, having a valid ID would be the same process as now (just a different ID), but the consumer would be paying annually for the license, to cover the background checks. I think a liquor license should also require the applicant to take a class and a test, but this wouldn't be near as in depth as gun license training and testing. The liquor license test could also check for mental health flags if we want it to. 

I think the annual fee, the class and the test would deter the person who only buys booze a few times a year or less, but I think most people would do it, even if some will complain about it. It could do a lot to help. 

Thanks, all this and KC's post make perfect sense.  I don't know why I was making it so complicated in my head.  

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, KarmaPolice said:

All this makes sense.  

Just trying to get a picture in my head how it would get flagged, but I guess that would be all on the police side when a DUI happens, they fail a home visit, etc.. 

How it gets flagged or when it gets flagged?

The how I think is easier to figure out. When I was transitioning away from my vending business about 10 years ago, I looked at a starting a new business as a vendor of age verification terminals. Basically, you would scan the bar code on the drivers license and the terminal would communicate with the data server to verify if the license was valid. It was a way to help convenience stores protect themselves against under age buyers. 

The when is trickier. Does the data flag the person only after a conviction? What if a person pleads to a lesser charge? I think it should flag the system any time a person is found to be driving under the influence. Regardless of loopholes found in prosecution. If you blow a .10 twice in a 10 year period, the system should flag you as being ineligible to purchase alcohol. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, KCitons said:

How it gets flagged or when it gets flagged?

The how I think is easier to figure out. When I was transitioning away from my vending business about 10 years ago, I looked at a starting a new business as a vendor of age verification terminals. Basically, you would scan the bar code on the drivers license and the terminal would communicate with the data server to verify if the license was valid. It was a way to help convenience stores protect themselves against under age buyers. 

The when is trickier. Does the data flag the person only after a conviction? What if a person pleads to a lesser charge? I think it should flag the system any time a person is found to be driving under the influence. Regardless of loopholes found in prosecution. If you blow a .10 twice in a 10 year period, the system should flag you as being ineligible to purchase alcohol. 

All this makes sense - thanks.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 hours ago, Hawkeye21 said:

It's because those are not common things to use and in most cases would be ridiculous to use.  All of those objects I listed are not made to kill with the exception of the knife and even that's not always meant for killing.  That's why these are all very different than guns and should be treated differently.

wait ... cars kill more people/injure far more people than guns

knives/sharp objects and hands kill more than AR15's do

 

you do know that right? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 hours ago, KCitons said:

You would be wrong. I wouldn't sell a pellet gun to a person under 18.

I don't question an adults motive for buying my car. But, that's because we don't have regulations to address it. But, I would support regulation.

you never question age at yard sales .... c'mon

there will never be regulation on person to person sales because people don't care about 35,000 dead with cars and hundreds of thousands injured

its not a political agenda, its simply acceptable deaths to have cars

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 hours ago, KarmaPolice said:

I have posted stats that say only 3-5% of these gun deaths are by people diagnosed with a severe mental illness.  You keep saying that it's the people and the mental illness that is the problem.  Why are you targeting something that is only true for 3-5% of these incidents?

 

have I said that ?

the mass murders yes - the everyday shooters? they're involved in illegal stuff, gangs, drugs and domestic violence more than anything aren't they ? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 hours ago, KCitons said:

I will ask again. Would you sell a 3 year old a Bowie knife?

again you are using extremes

at your yard sale, do you ask for identification every time you sell a knife ?  you and I both know you do not

and you don't ask history when you sell a car either

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, Stealthycat said:

you never question age at yard sales .... c'mon

there will never be regulation on person to person sales because people don't care about 35,000 dead with cars and hundreds of thousands injured

its not a political agenda, its simply acceptable deaths to have cars

I have refused to sell certain items to kids at a yard sale. It's part of being a responsible adult. If the store down the street can't sell it to them, neither can I. 

You should start selling booze and cigarettes to preteens out of your house. You could make a few extra bucks and help get the kids started drinking much earlier. 

Oh wait, there are regulations on person to person sales between adults an minors when it comes to alcohol. 

8 hours ago, Stealthycat said:

again you are using extremes

at your yard sale, do you ask for identification every time you sell a knife ?  you and I both know you do not

and you don't ask history when you sell a car either

And again, you didn't answer the question. Are you related to Tim?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Not sure SC can answer that - he is either called a monster by KC if he says yes, or a liar by the rest if no since he would be admitting again that not all objects/weapons are the same.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Restore formatting

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Sign in to follow this  

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.