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KCitons

USA DUI Deaths (and how they relate to other things)

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its an extreme example in hopes to get some kind of point across which it cannot because, its extreme 

 

1 hour ago, KCitons said:

I have refused to sell certain items to kids at a yard sale. It's part of being a responsible adult.

ok kids is one thing - we were talking about a private car sales to someone and asking them about their backgrounds and DUI history etc which you nor I nor anyone else would ever do

are you related to fish ?

I actually bought 2 bottles of wine at a yard sale once .... I wasn't carded or asked my age. I'm trying to buy my son a car right now ... I've yet to have any salesmen or sellers ask my my DUI history etc. Why ? because they don't care - they're selling something and I'm buying it. The end

What I choose to do with the car afterwards is my responsibility not theirs. 

 

 

 

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13 minutes ago, Stealthycat said:

its an extreme example in hopes to get some kind of point across which it cannot because, its extreme 

 

ok kids is one thing - we were talking about a private car sales to someone and asking them about their backgrounds and DUI history etc which you nor I nor anyone else would ever do

are you related to fish ?

I actually bought 2 bottles of wine at a yard sale once .... I wasn't carded or asked my age. I'm trying to buy my son a car right now ... I've yet to have any salesmen or sellers ask my my DUI history etc. Why ? because they don't care - they're selling something and I'm buying it. The end

What I choose to do with the car afterwards is my responsibility not theirs. 

 

 

 

I just find it odd that you are all about personal responsibility, but it seems to only apply to other people (at least that's how it comes across).   

This has been the feeling your posts have when we talk about locking up guns, locking your car, and now selling things to whoever at a garage sale.  

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14 minutes ago, Stealthycat said:

its an extreme example in hopes to get some kind of point across which it cannot because, its extreme 

 

ok kids is one thing - we were talking about a private car sales to someone and asking them about their backgrounds and DUI history etc which you nor I nor anyone else would ever do

are you related to fish ?

I actually bought 2 bottles of wine at a yard sale once .... I wasn't carded or asked my age. I'm trying to buy my son a car right now ... I've yet to have any salesmen or sellers ask my my DUI history etc. Why ? because they don't care - they're selling something and I'm buying it. The end

What I choose to do with the car afterwards is my responsibility not theirs. 

 

 

 

It's extreme, but it gets the point across. Obviously you wouldn't sell your Bowie knife to a 3 year old. Because a 3 year old would probably be accompanied by his/her parent. And the parent would tell them no. But, what about a 12 year old that rides up on his bicycle? No parent accompaniment. Do you sell it to him?

No, I've never asked about a persons criminal history when I sell a car. There are reasons for this. 1 - I'm not required to by law. 2 - I have know way of knowing if the person is lying to me. In the example of the Bowie knife, I can tell that the kid is under 18. Therefore, I have an obligation to prohibit sale to him. 

Selling wine at a garage sale, may have been illegal depending on the state or local laws. 

 As to the bolded, do you want less drunk driving offenders on the road? If the answer is yes, then a way to prevent this (and repeat offenders) is to verify the alcohol criminal history of a person before they buy a vehicle. I'm not saying it is your personal responsibility, I'm saying that there should be regulations that require the transaction to be mediated by third party that can run the background check.   

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1 hour ago, Stealthycat said:

its an extreme example in hopes to get some kind of point across which it cannot because, its extreme 

 

ok kids is one thing - we were talking about a private car sales to someone and asking them about their backgrounds and DUI history etc which you nor I nor anyone else would ever do

are you related to fish ?

I actually bought 2 bottles of wine at a yard sale once .... I wasn't carded or asked my age. I'm trying to buy my son a car right now ... I've yet to have any salesmen or sellers ask my my DUI history etc. Why ? because they don't care - they're selling something and I'm buying it. The end

What I choose to do with the car afterwards is my responsibility not theirs. 

 

 

 

I'm pretty sure that is illegal regardless if you are of age or not.

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1 hour ago, Hawkeye21 said:

I'm pretty sure that is illegal regardless if you are of age or not.

Geez - how many crimes has SC admitted to in these threads? ;)

 

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2 hours ago, KarmaPolice said:

I just find it odd that you are all about personal responsibility, but it seems to only apply to other people (at least that's how it comes across).   

This has been the feeling your posts have when we talk about locking up guns, locking your car, and now selling things to whoever at a garage sale.  

again, if you are trying to sell the idea that how other people behave is YOUR responsibility, I disagree

if a person breaks into your house and takes a gun from a nightstand, I'm understanding you to be saying its kinda the home owners fault for not locking it up right? and if the theif stole a knife and murdered someone with it, the same? or stole a car and crashed it into someone and killed them, the fault lies with the owner ?

everyone sells to whomever in private sales with no background checks, no prying questions about history of whatever, no age checking .... again, extreme " selling knives to babies"  is just a ridiculous thing to say

 

 

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2 hours ago, KCitons said:

As to the bolded, do you want less drunk driving offenders on the road? If the answer is yes, then a way to prevent this (and repeat offenders) is to verify the alcohol criminal history of a person before they buy a vehicle. I'm not saying it is your personal responsibility, I'm saying that there should be regulations that require the transaction to be mediated by third party that can run the background check.

and I disagree with that - personal responsibility keeps people from driving drunk .... not background checks by you or me when selling a car on craigslist 

its already to DUI ..... isn't that enough ?

 

 

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21 minutes ago, KarmaPolice said:

Geez - how many crimes has SC admitted to in these threads? ;)

 

you probably drove over the speed limit today and 1/2 the people here texted while driving

"crimes" ???   please 

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4 minutes ago, Stealthycat said:

and I disagree with that - personal responsibility keeps people from driving drunk .... not background checks by you or me when selling a car on craigslist 

its already to DUI ..... isn't that enough ?

 

 

Answer the question. Would you sell the Bowie knife to the 12 year old? 

It's an easy question. A simple yes or no will do. 

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2 hours ago, Stealthycat said:

you probably drove over the speed limit today and 1/2 the people here texted while driving

"crimes" ???   please 

I rarely drive over 2mph over speed limit.  

That's different than buying contraband at garage sales and crossing state lines with guns though.  ;)

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5 minutes ago, KarmaPolice said:

I rarely drive over 2mph over speed limit.  

That's different than buying contraband at garage sales and crossing state lines with guns though;)

We already debunked this. Many states have reciprocity laws that allow for ccw to transfer from state to state. 

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Just now, KCitons said:

We already debunked this. Many states have reciprocity laws that allow for ccw to transfer from state to state. 

Hence the wink.  I was giving him ####. 

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3 hours ago, KCitons said:

Answer the question. Would you sell the Bowie knife to the 12 year old? 

It's an easy question. A simple yes or no will do. 

I'd demand to see a birth certificate first

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1 hour ago, KarmaPolice said:

I rarely drive over 2mph over speed limit.  

That's different than buying contraband at garage sales and crossing state lines with guns though.  ;)

contraband ? really ?

 

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28 minutes ago, Stealthycat said:

I'd demand to see a birth certificate first

And if it said he was 12? What would you do?

If you can't tell he's 12, you must be blind. Or ignorant. Neither of which is an acceptable excuse.

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5 hours ago, Stealthycat said:

again, if you are trying to sell the idea that how other people behave is YOUR responsibility, I disagree

if a person breaks into your house and takes a gun from a nightstand, I'm understanding you to be saying its kinda the home owners fault for not locking it up right? and if the theif stole a knife and murdered someone with it, the same? or stole a car and crashed it into someone and killed them, the fault lies with the owner ?

everyone sells to whomever in private sales with no background checks, no prying questions about history of whatever, no age checking .... again, extreme " selling knives to babies"  is just a ridiculous thing to say

 

Again, I am not sure why personal responsibility wouldn't include the owner and how they take care of their stuff.  

I think there is grey areas and different gradations of responsibility.  Am I saying that you should be charged with a crime in all the cases you mentioned?  No.  But, IMO you also have a responsibility.   You are less responsible if you had your gun locked and they somehow broke into that than if you left it on the table than if you left it on the front porch.    

Why is this different than when you were grilling me about what I use to protect my house?  In an ideal world, nobody should be breaking into houses, but we know that there is a chance that will happen.  Somebody breaks into my house - did I cause them to do it? No, but I am still responsible for keeping my house safe and providing a certain level of safety for it.  I would feel bad if left the garage door wide open and somebody stole something out of there - a lot moreso than if they broke in to steal something.  

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On 5/27/2019 at 8:58 PM, timschochet said:

Wait- before we get to that, what states have background checks for all private sales? I’m still not clear on this. 

 

On 5/28/2019 at 2:07 PM, KCitons said:

Still waiting. 

You've got your answer. Are you just going to disregard the conversation?

 

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More cops died by suicide than in the line of duty in 2018.

Too bad Politician Spock has me on ignore. I'd like to know his plans on reducing these suicides? Banning guns or locking up guns isn't going to prevent these deaths. The only solution is mental health programs. If those programs will work for police officers, then why wouldn't it work for everyone else?

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19 minutes ago, KCitons said:

 

 

I missed these responses KCitons. I’ll go back and look and then I will try to answer you when I get back. 

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On 5/27/2019 at 6:49 PM, KCitons said:

 

I will ask you the same thing. How many states both require and enforce background checks for alcohol purchases? It should be impossible for a person to receive more than two DUIs in their lifetime. If you get one chance with a firearm, why do we give them multiple chances with alcohol?

 

 

@KCitons

First off thanks for the information about the 6 states. And I apologIze for not responding to you a few days back. For some reason I got this thread confused with the regular gun thread and didn’t realize I had posted in this one. My apologies again. 

I am happy to learn that I was wrong about those states. I still question the ability to enforce those laws; as I’ve written before I really don’t think it can be done unless it’s federal. Still, it’s a positive start and I’m glad you’re in favor for universal background checks. 

Now to your question: while I still don’t think it’s a very good analogy, I actually agree with you that people with more than 1 DUI should not be allowed to buy alcohol. Seems like it should be easy to enforce, maybe a stamp on ones DL or ID? The rest of us would have to show ID each time we buy a drink but so what? It would be well worth the inconvenience. 

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, KCitons said:

More cops died by suicide than in the line of duty in 2018.

Too bad Politician Spock has me on ignore. I'd like to know his plans on reducing these suicides? Banning guns or locking up guns isn't going to prevent these deaths. The only solution is mental health programs. If those programs will work for police officers, then why wouldn't it work for everyone else?

Not sure what the point of this post is.  I don't think he of all people as ever said not to address the mental health issue or suicides.  Unless you meant -fish, not PS?

Edited by KarmaPolice

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1 minute ago, timschochet said:

@KCitons

First off thanks for the information about the 6 states. And I apologIze for not responding to you a few days back. For some reason I got this thread confused with the regular gun thread and didn’t realize I had posted in this one. My apologies again. 

I am happy to learn that I was wrong about those states. I still question the ability to enforce those laws; as I’ve written before I really don’t think it can be done unless it’s federal. Still, it’s a positive start and I’m glad you’re in favor for universal background checks. 

Now to your question: while I still don’t think it’s a very good analogy, I actually agree with you that people with more than 1 DUI should not be allowed to buy alcohol. Seems like it should be easy to enforce, maybe a stamp on ones DL or ID? The rest of us would have to show ID each time we buy a drink but so what? It would be well worth the inconvenience. 

That data may actually be outdated. Things are changing very fast in regards to gun regulation. Things like universal background checks, storage regulations and magazine limits are being addressed. I don't agree with all of it, but I do agree with background checks. I also disagree with your questioning the ability of to enforce those laws. I'm not sure what a Federal law gets you that a state or local law doesn't? First off, we have a wide range of demographics that need to be taken into account when you look at regulating anything. Regulations in New York City should not be the same in Holdredge Nebraska. I think it's best for each state and city to decide what is the best way to address it.

This entire conversation spawned out of my comment that guns are regulated more than alcohol. The fact that we have six states that require people to have a clean record to purchase a gun, while others can buy alcohol after multiple duis is proof. The battle cry of anti gun activists is that guns are the problem, and regulating them out of the hands of some people is the solution. I wonder why it's acceptable to feel guns are the problem with gun deaths, but alcohol is not the problem with alcohol deaths? This is the reason I use this analogy. 

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6 minutes ago, KarmaPolice said:

Not sure what the point of this post is.  I don't think he of all people as ever said not to address the mental health issue or suicides.  Unless you meant -fish, not PS?

No, I meant PS. 

All the suggestions he has made in regards to regulations would have zero effect on these suicides. If the solution for them is only mental health programs, why can't the solution for everyone else be the same?

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1 minute ago, KCitons said:

No, I meant PS. 

All the suggestions he has made in regards to regulations would have zero effect on these suicides. If the solution for them is only mental health programs, why can't the solution for everyone else be the same?

Who do you mean by "everyone else"?   All the rest of the gun violence victims?

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6 minutes ago, KarmaPolice said:

Not sure what the point of this post is.  I don't think he of all people as ever said not to address the mental health issue or suicides.  Unless you meant -fish, not PS?

I see from you quoting him that he thinks my solution is to ban guns. Basically every single word I've ever typed for him has been ignored, and he sees some completely different version of me. It's just best for all for me to move on and just forget he even exists. 

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Just now, KarmaPolice said:

Who do you mean by "everyone else"?   All the rest of the gun violence victims?

Everyone that needs it.

I'm going out on a limb, but the mental health programs for police officers aren't going to be for the those that have already taken their life. It would be for all police officers. They won't ask for an officer to say that they are contemplating suicide. That would require them to be removed from service. It would have to encompass everyone. 

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2 minutes ago, Politician Spock said:

I see from you quoting him that he thinks my solution is to ban guns. Basically every single word I've ever typed for him has been ignored, and he sees some completely different version of me. It's just best for all for me to move on and just forget he even exists. 

Wrong. Again. 

He's posted over and over that he wants training and licensing in order to reduce gun deaths. Deaths that are in large part, caused by suicide. How is training and licensing going to help suicides by police officers? 

Hint: It won't.

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7 minutes ago, Politician Spock said:

I see from you quoting him that he thinks my solution is to ban guns. Basically every single word I've ever typed for him has been ignored, and he sees some completely different version of me. It's just best for all for me to move on and just forget he even exists. 

Fair.  That's why I thought he was thinking of fish.  Pretty sure it was you that was all about preventing suicides and getting the mental health for those who need it.  :shrug:

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This is one of those times I feel like I am reading different threads than other people, or I am just that old and forgetful.  From the posts I have read from PS, he seems to be about implementing a bunch of solutions to attack the problem- yes - licensing and training, but also mental health and other things.  

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3 minutes ago, KarmaPolice said:

Who do you mean by "everyone else"?   All the rest of the gun violence victims?

I've always supported increased mental health initiatives, and have even explained how people who take the test for a gun license would be tested for mental health issues. Obviously a test alone cannot result in a diagnosis, but it's one step closer to a diagnosis and treatment than they were before. I've also told him I liked his mental health tax idea, as it would provide funding for these people to get a true diagnosis and treatment. 

In the specific case of police officers, it's ridiculous that the mental issues they are suffering from, especially in retirement, given everything they've dealt with in their life, isn't being treated properly today. I've always supported a mature, rational decision for suicide, and some of these officers may in fact be having a mature, rational decision to do it. But given the high rate of suicide by them, I can't rationally believe that all of them are mature, rational decisions. This is an issue that goes well beyond the gun issue, as there has to be a ton of them living a terrible existence that aren't committing suicide if some of them are committing it. They need help, and it should be funded from the same source that paid their jobs that drove them to this mental state... taxpayers. 

As for his claim that it will help everyone, again that's just his irrational belief driven from is desire that we don't do anything else to help the gun issues. You have provided good evidence that the gun issues goes well beyond mental issues, and he has ignored that just like he has ignored so much else. 

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3 minutes ago, KarmaPolice said:

This is one of those times I feel like I am reading different threads than other people, or I am just that old and forgetful.  From the posts I have read from PS, he seems to be about implementing a bunch of solutions to attack the problem- yes - licensing and training, but also mental health and other things.  

This is what happens when someone does a ton of strawman arguing. I'm not going to repeat my position over and over and over and over again simply because he just keeps propping me up to be something different than I am, so he can easily knock it down. If he's ruining the thread for you, then do what other's have done. This thread has been 100 times better for me in the days since I did it. 

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Also, it's not solely a mental health solution with the cops and suicide if the stats are access to a gun increases the chance of death by suicide 3x, and 85% of the attempts end in death - sorry, it's a gun issue as well.  It would be pretty safe to say that police officers have a lot of access to guns.  

My wife is a veterinarian.  It's another career that has a high % of suicides.  A lot of factors in that, but one is that they have access to drugs that would be able to greatly increase their chances for success.  

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21 minutes ago, KarmaPolice said:

Also, it's not solely a mental health solution with the cops and suicide if the stats are access to a gun increases the chance of death by suicide 3x, and 85% of the attempts end in death - sorry, it's a gun issue as well.  It would be pretty safe to say that police officers have a lot of access to guns.  

My wife is a veterinarian.  It's another career that has a high % of suicides.  A lot of factors in that, but one is that they have access to drugs that would be able to greatly increase their chances for success.  

I have Meniere's disease, which due to the 24/7 tinnitus and bouts of vertigo that can last for 12 hours, has a high % of suicide by those who have it. I currently do not struggle with thoughts of suicide, but my wife and I consciously limit things in the house that I could use if a were to someday have a horrible experience from my Meniere's and make a rash decision to just end it. Studies show a lot of first time suicide attempts are done within the first 10 minutes of suicidal thoughts. Unused prescription drugs are thrown out, no guns, etc, etc...

We take action in our house because we know I'm at risk due to my health condition. But a TON of people live in homes where there is easy access to suicidal tools, and they are literally one bad day away from being 10 minutes to an attempt. If there is an unsecured gun in the house, it's 17 times more likely that the attempt will be successful than in a house without a gun.  

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8 hours ago, KCitons said:

And if it said he was 12? What would you do?

If you can't tell he's 12, you must be blind. Or ignorant. Neither of which is an acceptable excuse.

again, you are using exceptional examples to try and make a point because you cannot use common examples to make your point

nobody cards at yard sales, nobody asked DUI history or criminal records when selling cars. Or knives or anything else. They don't - unless a 3 year old asks to buy a bowie knife right ?

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1 hour ago, Politician Spock said:

bouts of vertigo that can last for 12 hours

I'm very sorry to hear that

I suffer vertigo .... I understand that

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6 hours ago, KarmaPolice said:

Again, I am not sure why personal responsibility wouldn't include the owner and how they take care of their stuff.  

because what someone else does isn't their responsibility 

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9 hours ago, Politician Spock said:

This is what happens when someone does a ton of strawman arguing. I'm not going to repeat my position over and over and over and over again simply because he just keeps propping me up to be something different than I am, so he can easily knock it down. If he's ruining the thread for you, then do what other's have done. This thread has been 100 times better for me in the days since I did it. 

@KarmaPolice I would suggest you stop partially quoting my posts. This is only adding to SP's confusion. 

His immaturity comes back to the same thing every time, asking people to ignore me. He's like Fish Jr. now. He knows exactly what this thread is about, he can choose to stay out of it. Instead he chooses the passive aggressive path.  

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9 hours ago, KarmaPolice said:

Also, it's not solely a mental health solution with the cops and suicide if the stats are access to a gun increases the chance of death by suicide 3x, and 85% of the attempts end in death - sorry, it's a gun issue as well.  It would be pretty safe to say that police officers have a lot of access to guns.  

My wife is a veterinarian.  It's another career that has a high % of suicides.  A lot of factors in that, but one is that they have access to drugs that would be able to greatly increase their chances for success.  

How do you solve the problem when you can't take away guns? 

That was the point of my original post. 

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Iowa teachers at breaking point.

This isn't about guns, this is about behavior. I know I'm old, but I don't recall many outbursts in class during my elementary days. 

Quote

Police reports back her up.  They contain stories of children ages 10 and younger throwing chairs, punching teachers in the face, and leaving bruises on instructors.  May considers herself lucky.  “In terms of what other teachers deal with, I think I’ve been kind of blessed because I’ve never had to go to the hospital.”

Good thing none of them have access to guns. Problem solved.

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On 6/1/2019 at 7:29 AM, KCitons said:

Iowa teachers at breaking point.

This isn't about guns, this is about behavior. I know I'm old, but I don't recall many outbursts in class during my elementary days. 

Good thing none of them have access to guns. Problem solved.

nobody remember the post I made on school violence nationwide

its bad

 

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Dad guilty of killing 5 kids faces possible death sentence

Gun regulation wouldn't have prevented this. 

Quote

Jones, 37, confessed to exercising 6-year-old Nahtahn until he died after an electrical outlet was broken in his Lexington home in August 2014.

Prosecutors said Jones then considered what to do for several hours — watching a prison rape scene from a movie and heading to a store for cigarettes with his oldest child while leaving the others at home with the body — before deciding to kill them all.

Jones would eventually strangle 8-year-old Mera and 7-year-old Elias with his hands and, in his confession, said he used a belt to choke 2-year-old Gabriel and 1-year-old Abigail because his hands were too big, prosecutor Rick Hubbard said in his closing argument Monday.

Jones then wrapped the bodies of all five children in plastic and drove around the Southeast U.S. for nine days, running a few errands, buying synthetic marijuana, but mainly making erratic trips, Hubbard said, citing bank and cellphone records.

 

Quote

Defense attorney Boyd Young emphasized how Jones’ diseased and damaged brain kept him from knowing both legal and moral right from wrong when he killed his children — the requirement under South Carolina law to find him not guilty by reason of insanity. Jurors did not buy that argument.

 

Quote

That didn’t show a cruel, evil father, but instead a man whose already tenuous grasp on sanity was destroyed after his wife left him for a teenager, raising five children alone and self medicating his mentally ill thoughts with synthetic marijuana and drinking, Boyd said.

You can remove all the guns you want from society. Sick ####### people who don't care about other human beings will remain. 

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3 children killed after pickup truck hits Amish horse-drawn carriage

Quote

The children, ages 2, 4 and 6, were traveling along an Algansee Township road on Friday when the pickup truck rear-ended their carriage, ejecting all of those inside, Michigan State Police said

The driver of the pickup truck, who has been identified as Tyler Frye, was arrested, State Police Sgt. Todd Price said.

He is facing three counts of operating while under the influence causing death, two counts of operating while under the influence causing serious injury, and a felony weapons charge, State Police Sgt. Doug Schutter said.

Which one was the cause of death? Alcohol or gun?

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Truck driver charged with 7 homicides in New Hampshire motorcycle crash

Quote

The driver of a pickup truck in a fiery collision on a rural New Hampshire highway that killed seven motorcyclists was charged Monday with seven counts of negligent homicide, and records show he was stopped on suspicion of drunken driving last month and in 2013.

 

Quote

Connecticut prosecutors say he was arrested May 11 in an East Windsor Walmart parking lot after failing a sobriety test. Officers had responded to a complaint about a man who was revving his truck engine and jumping up and down outside the vehicle.

Additionally, Zhukovskyy was arrested on a drunken driving charge in 2013 in Westfield, Massachusetts, state motor vehicle records show. He was placed on probation for one year and had his license suspended for 210 days, The Westfield News reported.

We continue to punish people without addressing the underlying problem of alcoholism.  This guy shouldn't have been driving, much less have access to alcohol. 

 

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Posted (edited)

For those people that believe guns could be regulated just like cars.

I purchased a vehicle a few weeks ago from a private seller. I paid with cash and received a bill of sale and the title. I have 30 days here in my state to license the vehicle. When I purchased the car, I wasn't asked for proof of insurance. Although I am covered under my current auto insurance whenever I buy a new car, I didn't actually notify the insurance company until the day after I purchased it. We are not required to post an In Transit sign in the window here. Just keep the proof of purchase (bill of sale) in the glove box. 

Since purchasing, I have had two different police officers within visual range of my vehicle (one alongside and one behind me). Neither pulled me over to verify that the vehicle was properly registered and insured .

I also have been to the grocery store (which sells liquor) at 3-4 times. I could have bought as much alcohol as I wanted and driven my vehicle while under the influence. There are no laws that proactively prevent it from happening. 

 

Edited by KCitons

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2 minutes ago, AAABatteries said:

:tumbleweed:

Sad. Isn't it. 

All the people that have died. Some children, and not even a quick note of condolence. 

I even issued a PSA on the 4th of July week. Not a peep. 

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